Ref gets caught with hot mic in Flyers game
- Thread starter Obliviax
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I think we are going to eventually find out that multiple refs at the professional level routinely bet on, and influence, the outcome of games. It has already happened in Europe on a large scale. A lot of refs have to be thinking, “Without me there is no game, but I make a tiny fraction of the players. Why not?”
Agreed. And when the sporting industry is trying to induce middle and low-income people to bet big on sports outcomes this should be outrageous. This is why, when I hear somebody say to not blame the refs, I wonder what world they live in.
I think part of the issue is that officiating a professional sport is extremely difficult and requires years to perfect one’s craft. I went to a Philly Union game last Saturday and it really struck me how fit and athletic the official was throughout the game. They need to be able to keep up with elite athletes and even in a sport like football where the officials do not have to run a lot, the speed of the game is incredible. It is a hard job.
I would guess the average official is a well-educated, middle class professional who has a passion for the game, but was never able to play it at an elite level. Having to be constantly berated by people who make 10-20 times your salary who happen to be blessed with exceptional athleticism sets up almost perfectly for the officials to make money other ways. If the leagues were smart they would go to a professional model and profit share with the officials. I doubt that ever happens.
Agreed. but with technology, it is easier every day. When you have a guy like Angel Hernandez keeping his job or some of these people in the NFL (the non call on the blatant PI versus the Saints a few years ago), the leagues have to be more proactive and transparent. Just wait until some big sports betting house get nailed and they file a lawsuit.
A ref swearing because a team scored certainly isn't helping the ref "brand".
I think a part of it now is the culture of assuming that referees are always "in the wrong" or have it out for someone (from Little League up to Pro sports)...why assume the worst, and that the ref swore "because a team scored"?
In this video, we have no idea a) if it was the referee talking (announcers say things that are incorrect all time, though it's certainly possible), b) did the referee say that in synch with the replay, or did they pick up him speaking in real time as they were showing a replay...it's not clear there if he's saying it as the player scores the goal, or saying it a minute later as they show the replay (and no idea what the second person was saying back to him), and c) if it did happen as the goal was scored, what it was related too...maybe he tripped, got bumped or bumped something, etc; maybe he did think that he missed an offsides, etc.
But the least likely scenario to me in all of this is that the referee is betting on the game or trying to fix it, and outwardly yells out a profanity when a team scores.
Agree. but the leagues have played a part by being way to secretive. They suggest the refs are solid but we can see that they are not. Yes, people make mistakes. But the analytics are there to see when we have an "outside the bell curve" problem. I follow a guy on X that is great for baseball, the pitching ninja. Another is Umpire Scorecard.
and to be fair, the players game it as well
Definitely need full time officials in all major sports. They play far more games than they ever did so it’s not a part time gig any more. And the travel is now coast to coast and even international instead of regional like decades ago,
Plus they play any night of the week, the seasons are all longer, playoffs longer. Much shorter off seasons with more minor leagues in off seasons. With tv contracts the leagues and owners make huge profits and can easily afford it.
Now gambling is not only legal but fully endorsed. It will have a huge impact they must deal with.
It’s crazy they haven’t done so years ago,
The holding call in the NFL and college has a direct influence on the outcome of a game.
Big play? Call holding. Negative 10 yards.
It is a massive weapon the refs hold and use.
agreed and it is totally arbitrary. Everyone holds on every play...or doesn't...just a matter if they throw the flag or not. I'd prefer they lower it to five yards but call it more. PI is another thing that is out of control. People talk about refs not affecting the game but so many big games come down to the last possession. A call or non-call makes all the difference in the world.
Think about that Seahawks game where there were like 20 holding/interference penalties.
A lot of teams just are more physical. And the assumption is that the refs were wrong.
But more than likely the team was properly penalized but kept doing it because they expected the calls to soften.
The team expected the calls to be arbitrary and they werent.
maybe. maybe not. it is impossible to know. The league is NOT transparent. And as we've seen with any large organization, they get corrupted from time to time. And with billions being gambled, there is a probability that some games, at some point, have been altered by an individual or group.
I think it's open knowledge that the NBA promotes big market teams via the refs.
The Lakers series over Portland years ago for example when they had Shaq and Kobe and had essentially lost the series and refs blatantly called make believe calls.
In CFB nothing worse than when Arkansas beat Florida then had two straight PF calla walk UF into the end zone.
In both examples though, the losing teams benefited financially over the mdeiun term.
Then you are moving into the Harlem Globetrotters/Washington Generals range. And you have to start asking yourself why you'd want to invest, financially and emotionally, into a team. Now add in gambling.
BTW, I saw UMass joined the MAC last week.
UMass leaving Atlantic 10 to move football program to a conference
UMass making a huge shift in their athletic department
I can’t speak on the gambling part of it, but I will say that in certain areas here between Baltimore and DC there’s definitely more bias in officials than I’ve ever seen. there’s not a whole lot anyone can do about it right now either because we are down so many officials in just about every sport.
To give you a couple examples, there is an official who every coach in the area knows him as “Penn State Tony“ except Penn State is really the high school that he played for. This guy played at the local high school. One of his high school teammates is the head coach there and his kids now go to that high school. The officials group is not supposed to put him on their games but it’s not always possible and every time he does get one of them it seems to be against another quality team where he definitely affects the outcome. He’s not a bad official when he’s not doing a game with Penn State but when he is you know that you’re playing six on five, unless the other official also knows his backstory and then generally that official tries to offset his bad calls and it just becomes a horribly played game.
The other instance is with Adrian Dantley. He officiates games down in the DC area and he’s not very good. But he’s especially not very good when somebody in the crowd knows who he is and lets him know how bad he is. At that point the team that the fan who yelled at Dantley is rooting for might as well forfeit because he’s going to make sure that it’s as hard as possible for that team to win.
To give you a couple examples, there is an official who every coach in the area knows him as “Penn State Tony“ except Penn State is really the high school that he played for. This guy played at the local high school. One of his high school teammates is the head coach there and his kids now go to that high school. The officials group is not supposed to put him on their games but it’s not always possible and every time he does get one of them it seems to be against another quality team where he definitely affects the outcome. He’s not a bad official when he’s not doing a game with Penn State but when he is you know that you’re playing six on five, unless the other official also knows his backstory and then generally that official tries to offset his bad calls and it just becomes a horribly played game.
The other instance is with Adrian Dantley. He officiates games down in the DC area and he’s not very good. But he’s especially not very good when somebody in the crowd knows who he is and lets him know how bad he is. At that point the team that the fan who yelled at Dantley is rooting for might as well forfeit because he’s going to make sure that it’s as hard as possible for that team to win.
Go sit on your opponent’s side wearing their colors and heckle him all night! Place your bets early!
I'd put those types of situations on the assignor. If a guy has a conflict of interest with a school, it should be very easy to make sure he never covers that school. And if an official is in over his head like you described with Dantley, the assignor needs to understand his level and assign him games where he's not going to negatively influence the outcome.
There are obviously some bad apples out there when you're dealing with a tens of thousands of officials throughout the country (and I've worked with a few of them)...but most of those types get weeded out early and never make it to the point where they're doing higher level HS games/Little League games/etc, or moving up to college. Any of the guys that I work with that take it seriously are really good.
I dont think a high percentage are bad or biased but its definitely worse now than 10 years ago. You are just biased in the opposite direction as one. There are plenty, even in college, who succumb to pressure of something.
A local HS baseball umpire who also does college games here in MD had our game beginning of last year and made a crude comment that I called him out on. He got mad, we didnt get anything close all day, overturns base umpire to call out or runner at 2B in the 6th, we lose 2-1. Thankfully the team we were playing had the son of another umpire, this ump is a guy I know. He is on call for Bowie Baysox, Aberdeen etc when umps get sick or something happens and also does high level college baseball games, including previously in Omaha. Well this dad/ump comes to talk to me after the game to get my story and then reamed out his fellow ump and called the evaluater and let him know what a jackass this guy was. Thankfully his workloads above high school JV got much lighter for the rest of the year.
I’d be interested in knowing how he went about “overturning” a call…there isn’t really a way for that to happen in baseball (if they are using proper mechanics). The base umpire could ask him for help on the play, but it would still be the base man’s call in the end. Was it just a bang-bang play, or some other nuance?
Slide at second base while turning two. Base umpire called the runner at second safe, saying the shortstop did not catch the ball until he was already off of second base before getting the runner out at first. Home plate umpire, then walked out to the field umpire and told him that the play at second was fine and both runners were out without the opposing teams coach even asking him to do so.
Horrible mechanics then…plate umpire stays put and shuts his mouth until the base ump asks for help.
Funny story for you with getting help…about 10 years ago, I was working the bases on a two-man Legion game. Routine grounder to short, routine throw to first, got the guy by 2 steps and I have him out. First base coach and some of the dugout go nuts that 1B was off the bag. Head coach was coaching third and came across to talk to me to ask me to ask for help. At the same time, a woman next to their bench started screaming profanities at me, so I told the coach that a) I’d go talk to the plate ump and b) he needed to have the fan removed before we continue play.
Plate ump was up the line in perfect position and tells me “no idea what the first baseman was doing, but there was some daylight there and he was off”. I come back and change my call, and the coach says “ok, she’s ok to stay then, right”. I said heck no, she’ll need to leave before we restart. She apparently had a little kid with her and the kid is crying having a meltdown as she broadcasts “we need to leave because the umpire is an asshole and sucks”.
Shake hands with my partner after the game, and the first thing he tells me is “I can’t believe you made a little kid cry today”. Still makes me laugh.
How many of us just wait for that yellow marker indicating a flag has been thrown after any big play. Especially in potential upset games.
No way some of these guys aren't betting or getting paid off, not directly obviously, but through a third party. Its easy for them to influence the outcome of a game, but no accountability on their end. Once again, another good thing has been ruined by money.
“No accountability“…outside of getting better assignments, keeping their jobs and/or moving up, legal ramifications of jail time and/or fines, etc.
Keeping their jobs? When do you ever hear about one of these people getting canned? I googled "nfl official fired" and the only hit I got was from 2018. That was the first and only NFL firing of an official in the Super Bowl era which was the 1966 season, the year I was born. One firing in my lifetime.
You are right he should not have intereceded and made a call. Problem was he felt I showed him up when i called him out for yelling at our manager (an autistic kid) bringing back foul balls. The kid flipped him one underhand and the ump yelled at the kid (and me saying I didnt teach him) because you are supposed to hand the ball to the ump, thats how they do it in the minors. It's funny because I've seen minor league teams roll balls out to the ump if they have no ball boy that game. The dad who was the pro ump also agreed with me on that item.
They don't publicly announce when they move on from someone, but that doesn't mean they weren't fired. Here at Penn State, Jerry Dunn wasn't fired. Rene Portland wasn't fired. But just because google doesn't list instances of NFL officials not being brought back doesn't mean that there aren't guys that lose their jobs for poor performance every year.
The second base ump needed to do a better job then too...there is no such thing as an "overrule". It's his call, and nothing that plate umpire does will change that.
There are some guys I've worked with that annoy me with BS like how they are given balls. I had a partner once that, during pregame, the team gave him the balls still wrapped up. He threw a ball still wrapped out to the mound, and put the rest still wrapped in his ball bag and handed them (still wrapped) to the catcher when needed during play. I asked him what the heck was up with that, and he said "I don't get paid to unwrap balls". Get over yourself dude.
Or maybe he just reacted to a well-executed play? Why does the paranoid mind immediately go to conspiracy/out to get someone?
Then there should be no surprise at the perceived lack of accountability.
I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. Unless they publicly announce that someone was let go for job performance, then it means that there is a lack of accountability? Most employees in America have accountability for poor performance even though their boss won't put out a press release if they are fired, get passed over for promotions, etc.
nobody is asking the public to bet on my performance though
So the thread would be of higher quality of thread if everyone had the same perspective and it was an official-bashing echo chamber? Interesting take.
FWIW, before I ever blew a whistle or called a strike, I might have had a similar take on some of this.
Yes. Timing is everything. PSU fans all saw this in the late 90s/early 2000s. Holding or PI can be called virtually any time, it's when you call it that matters. PSU would always get called at critical times to stop drives (or call back TDs which happened an amazing number of times) or continue other teams' drives. Then they'd get the makeup calls later at insignificant times.
Or sometimes they'd get bunches of makeup calls the following game against a weak team PSU was going to beat anyway. I remember one year the B1G flagrantly handed a game to Michigan (and there was a lot of press criticism) and then the following week Penn State's opponent (might have been Purdue) got called for everything -- it was like the conference was saying, "we won't let you beat Michigan but you can have Purdue."
There's no question in my mind the officiating was biased -- you watch the games you can't help but see the patterns. What I don't know is whether it was just individual officials (who were almost all midwestern old boys) who hated Penn State, or an actual Big Ten policy decision to kind of punch down PSU at that time.
But we definitely saw how easy it is for them to decide a game. We've seen it time and time again.
I think that was @Michigan in 2004. I was at that game and had countless UM fans coming up to us and apologizing. It is the one where the PSU WR caught a ball near the UM 20 and the ref ruled him out of bounds, no catch. The coach pointed to a rip in the natural grass surface about a yard inbounds where the player's foot came down. it wasn't a close call at all by any stretch. That would have allowed PSU to go for a FG to win it instead we lost in OT. There was also a punt where they called roughing the punter when you could clearly hear the ball being blocked which would nullify the roughing call. There were several others but those two stand out to me.
But we've seen others: OSU dropped pass called complete at a critical time, blatant holding on game-winning play, toe in/heal out, extra seconds, broken instant replay, clear play clock violations not called and the famous "you are just lucky to be here!"
I get refs have a tough time but if you don't think they have their fingers on the scale, at times, I don't know what to say. When a ref says "F*** Me" when a team scores, that's a problem.
What about the suckeye game…. as players walked off field for halftime a mic picked up a ref telling the suckeye QB “Wr can’t win the game for you” or something along that line.
I feel like 99% of refs don't have any conscious bias in games they ref. However, I do believe that unconscious bias is common. And, of course, from time to time, there are refs who have it out for a team or player for whatever reason.
I recall the guy in charge of B1G officiating for decades had a Michigan helmet lamp in his office with a ton of B1G sports memorabilia heavily dominated by UM and tOSU. Of course, refs want the premier games so they want to please their boss. And if there is a close game in Michigan that is key to the outcome of the PSU/Michigan game, it is hard not to rule in favor of Michigan. And, we know that the B1G heavily favors tOSu and Michigan anyway. You want proof? They bastardized the schedule and conferences to make sure that the tOSU Michigan game is the premier B1G game every year. Do you think recruits don't see that? People aren't dumb (well, all of them aren't dumb).
There were two especially egregious games against Iowa as well. 2002 was the game where Paterno lost it and chased after the ref -- all the press coverage was about Paterno losing it and not nearly enough about how a midwestern crew led by a ref who was actually from Iowa (who made that crew assignment, I wonder) handed Iowa call after call in that game. Paterno's anger was justified in that case. The other one was 2008 in Iowa City, it was a tough close game and Scirotto beat the receiver and made a great INT in the 4th Q -- that wasn't going to stand with a midwestern crew. Things are better today, most of the old boys are gone and TV replays are so ubiquitous they just can't get away with shit, they take too much heat if they try. But the 1990s and 2000s were tough, PSU was the only outsider in the conference and the officials let them know that just about every single week.
