Had to check my calendar Tom - thought it was April fools days when I saw your list. In my opinion, there's nobody else that wins two games in this series with the roster he is playing with.
Better: Jordan
Equal: Larry, Magic, Wilt, Russel
Your list of All-time NBA Players better than LeBron?
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Had to check my calendar Tom - thought it was April fools days when I saw your list. In my opinion, there's nobody else that wins two games in this series with the roster he is playing with.
Better: Jordan
Equal: Larry, Magic, Wilt, Russel
The talent is way better today. It's insane. The domestic talent pool is deeper and the global talent pool is light years ahead of where it was in the 80s and 90s.
The problem with trying to answer that question is that his career is not yet over.
With 4 MVP awards, he is already in a class with the best - Jabbar (6 MVPs), Jordan (5), Russell (5), Chamberlain (4), Bird (3), Johnson (3), Malone (3).
You could make arguments for Robertson, West and a couple others.
He may mean as much to a team as any player ever, so he is certainly already no doubt one of the best. Anybody who doesn't put him in the top 10 already is smoking something (and probably thinks Williams was a better hitter than Ruth.)
Pippen? Seriously?
Dr J was a super exciting player. But he was no Jordan. C'mon.
Wilt needs to drop...at least 5 slots. His horrible FT shooting (career ~50%) made him useless late in the game (think Hack-a-Shaq).
That is why he runs a football board, not an NBA basketball board.
Wilt was probably most dominant if not most valuable.
Wilt is tied for first with Jordan in all-time points per game (BTW, James is tied for #3).
Wilt is first in all-time rebounds per game.
Wilt scored 60 points in a game 32 times; the runnerups Jordan and Kobe did it 6 times.
Wilt had 38 or more rebounds in 26 games; the runnerup Russell had that many in 16 games; all other players did it only 4 times.
Although he may not be the most valuable ever, he dominated a game like no one else.
I would say the three most dominant ever were Jordan, Jabbar and Wilt.
Most valuable players were Jordan and Jabbar. Russell might be up there for MVP for his dominating defense but he was a mediocre scorer and was surrounded by great players.
Pippen has to be the most underrated great player ever. Insane defender, nobody better in transition.
Back in 1976 Bill Walton beat the 76er's with four stiffs. To see it again with Lebron is note worthy but we have seen this before.
Jack Ramsey of St. Joe's fame coached that Trailblazer team.
N i t t a n y A m e r i c a
Jack Ramsey of St. Joe's fame coached that Trailblazer team.
N i t t a n y A m e r i c a
Maurice Lucas was one of the best power forwards to lace them up. And one of the most commanding enforcers the game has ever seen.
And Lionel Hollins was no stiff either.
I actually think that to myself whenever he defends Ruben Amaro, Jr.
Tommy Mac always has Ruin Tomorrow's back for some reason.
Its a good point relative to 76-77 and the 14-15 Cavs (although Maurice Lucas and Lionel Hollins were pretty darn good players, one can argue that point versus Delly and JR Smith). But Walton hurt his foot and was never impactful on the league. So he wasn't one of the best ever NBA players (certainly was for college).
Walton was three time college player of the year, his injuries killed his NBA career.
just looked it up...Mo Lucas averaged more points per game than Walton...not to take away from Big Red but he wasn't a one-man team.
I'm not a big fan of Ruben, and don't think that I defend him against all attacks.
I do contend than in hindsight, when you know that a guy got injured, or that a player's performance rapidly declined, it's easy to say that a GM should have done this or that, but the claims rarely have much merit, as nobody (including other teams) had the ability to see the future. You have to look at the situation at the time of the trade, what the Phils needed, and what other teams were offering.
Most of the trades the Phils made while Ruben was GM and they were at or near the top of MLB, were not bad at the time. The exceptions to that were:
1) trading Cliff Lee to Seattle
2) giving up way too much to Houston for Hunter Pence
3) not getting nearly enough from San Fran for Hunter Pence
Once the Phils started to decline, the trades have been hit or miss. They got potentially good prospects in some of the trades, and pretty much gave away a MLB starter in some of the other trades.
What's really hurt the Phils, other than injuries or declining performances, is that they really did not make good pics in the draft while they were on top. To some extent that's because they were picking so low in the 1st round, or because they didn't even have a 1st round pick due to a FA signing, but they had a series of 1st pick (regardless of round) busts. They seemed to rectify that the past few drafts (when they were picking much higher in the draft, and hadn't lost picks to FA signings), though only time will tell.
Tom
Maurice Lucas was involved in the 2nd scariest incident in NBA history (aside from Kermit Washington caving Rudy T's face in with a cheap shot). I will never forget him and Dawkins squaring off.
Maurice Lucas, leading scorer in the 76-77 Trailblazers (season and playoffs) would probably disagree.
Wilt's golden era was the 1960s. He was 7'1" and anywhere from 250-275 lbs. The top centers of his era were:
-Bill Russell 6'10"
-Nate Thurmond 6'11"
-Willis Reed 6'9" (or barely 6'10")
-Clyde Lovellette 6'9"
-Red Kerr 6'9"
-Jerry Lucas 6'8"
-Wayne Embry 6'8"
Wilt was the winner of the genetic lottery of the era. He was so far ahead of anyone physically it's actually comical. Would he be good, even great today? Yes. But he wouldn't have scored at will like he did.
100 points against the Knicks? There was as much "D" in that game as an NBA all star game with the score 169-147. The heights of the Knick players: Imhoff 6'10" Butcher 6'9", Naulls 6'6", Budd 6'6", Green 6'5", Guerin 6'4", Butler 6'2", Butcher 6'2". Hardly an imposing bunch.
Statistics do Basketball less justice than any other sport, IMO. For a game that is 50% defense, we rely on steals and blocked shots, and thats about it. How can you accurately define how dominant a player is at both sides on stats alone?
How can you define a great basketball player if what they do isn't captured in stats? That's damn near true for stats in most sports...with the exception of MAYBE baseball. But even then, defense is so hard to quantify.
Allen Iverson would score 30 pts a game consistently, but he would take damn near 30-35 shots and only shot like 40%. So you really need to take all the stats together as a whole.
How do you measure a great defender who forces the other team to take bad shots? Is there a stat showing opponents shot % against?
What about the point guard with lots of steals who got them by taking lots of risks, winding up out of position on many plays?
Basketball has always been a game where you can literally SEE a player impacting a game, but can't always quantify that effect in stats. I think thats what made Jordan so great - it wasn't just his stats, but watching how he made critical plays late in important games.
How can you define a great basketball player if what they do isn't captured in stats? That's damn near true for stats in most sports...with the exception of MAYBE baseball. But even then, defense is so hard to quantify.
Allen Iverson would score 30 pts a game consistently, but he would take damn near 30-35 shots and only shot like 40%. So you really need to take all the stats together as a whole.
How do you measure a great defender who forces the other team to take bad shots? Is there a stat showing opponents shot % against?
What about the point guard with lots of steals who got them by taking lots of risks, winding up out of position on many plays?
Basketball has always been a game where you can literally SEE a player impacting a game, but can't always quantify that effect in stats. I think thats what made Jordan so great - it wasn't just his stats, but watching how he made critical plays late in important games.
Ha, yeah I usually agree with TomMc but this coupled with the Amaro defense are eye poppers. It's part of what makes sports so fun though, such wide variety of opinions. The LeBron opinion is just REALLY WIDE.
Fair enough, but I was judging players, especially their "dominance", in the context of their eras. In the absolute sense, anybody before the Jabbar or Jordan eras may be suspect perhaps with the exception of a few great guards like Robertson and West who did not rely on height.
PS: By the criterion of dominance, George Mikan of the 1950s, considered a giant at 6-10, is among the greatest - because of him, they made defensive goal-tending illegal and widened the free throw lane.
(Re James, if we judge QBs almost solely on how many playoff games or SBs they have won, we have to acknowledge that James is great because he pretty much carries teams on his back as can be seen by their records before and after.)
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Wilt, by FARRRRRRRRRR. Then Jabbar and a healthy Walton. Other than that it would be Labron James.
And yes, I saw ALL of them play in person. I am that old
Wilt was amazing and could NOT be stopped "without fouling". I saw him against the Celtics and he was fouled on EVERY play. The Celtics grabbed and held him throughout that game. Wayne Embry who backed up Russell one year was the worst, he would plant his elbows on Wilt's back and then lean as hard as he could. I recall once Wilt took a side step and Wayne fell to the floor he was leaning so hard. Plus could REALLY jump. No other Big man could jump like him. It was really scary. You can see on youtube him blocking Jabbar's "sky hook". And wilt was an old man by that time.
But have to say he would "clear" his way to the basket and NO ONE got a layup when he was back on D, which was most of the time. Actually, if you watch some old film try to find someone laying the ball up against him or "over him". As a fan I find it humorous that some "experts" say Russel was better. Really? Was Bradshaw better than Marino ? I think not. The Steelers were better than the Dolphins.
My all time NBA team : Wilt, Magic, Bird, James and Jordon. They would beat the next best five EVERY time.
Only my "opinion" and personal observation.
And yes, I saw ALL of them play in person. I am that old
Wilt was amazing and could NOT be stopped "without fouling". I saw him against the Celtics and he was fouled on EVERY play. The Celtics grabbed and held him throughout that game. Wayne Embry who backed up Russell one year was the worst, he would plant his elbows on Wilt's back and then lean as hard as he could. I recall once Wilt took a side step and Wayne fell to the floor he was leaning so hard. Plus could REALLY jump. No other Big man could jump like him. It was really scary. You can see on youtube him blocking Jabbar's "sky hook". And wilt was an old man by that time.
But have to say he would "clear" his way to the basket and NO ONE got a layup when he was back on D, which was most of the time. Actually, if you watch some old film try to find someone laying the ball up against him or "over him". As a fan I find it humorous that some "experts" say Russel was better. Really? Was Bradshaw better than Marino ? I think not. The Steelers were better than the Dolphins.
My all time NBA team : Wilt, Magic, Bird, James and Jordon. They would beat the next best five EVERY time.
Only my "opinion" and personal observation.
I don't know if that is true but it's hard to be subjective about James while he is still playing. Kobe's rep has already started to fade even though it was not so long ago he was being compared to Jordan (for that matter Shaq was being compared by some to the very greatest centers).
You cannot be serious having Jabbar that low, can you? Too light??? The man played at an extremely high level until he was in his 40's, so he was obviously not too frail to withstand the rigors of the NBA. I loved Dr. J, and Pete Maravich but there is no way you can place them above Kareem when discussing the G.O.A.T.
I won't argue with you about the talent pool being deeper, it probably is, but cmon both of the teams in the finals would be destroyed by the Celtics,Lakers, and Sixers teams from the 80's. There may be a deeper pool of talented players right now but that does not translate to better teams, at least not yet.
Those teams from the 80s, they had serious defense deficiencies. That's the main thing, in my opinion, the defenses today are so much better. You had individual players like Dennis Johnson back then, but I can't think of a team right now that has more than one defense liability.
It is weird how O'Neal has already lost some of his ALL TIME great status. He had his very obvious flaws but that guy was freakishly athletic for his size and he could pass the ball pretty well. He was completely unstoppable around the rim.
What? You have to be kidding me.
Since the 2001-02 season, zone defenses have been legal in the NBA. This was not the case previously. (Well, to be 100% accurate, zone defense was allowed in the early days of the NBA, but was outlawed effective Jan. 11, 1947.)
The teams from the '80s played straight man. They could double a player, but that was it.
Billy Cunningham, as coach of the Sixers in the '80s, put more emphasis on defense than any other aspect of the game.
Some NBA All-Defensive team players in the '80s:
'80-'81
First Team
Bobby Jones (Sixers)
Kareen (Lakers)
Caldwell Jones (Sixers)
'81-'82
First Team
Bobby Jones (Sixers)
Caldwell Jones (Sixers)
Michael Cooper (Lakers)
Second Team
Larry BIrd (Celtics)
Sidney Moncrief (Bucks)
'82-'83
First Team
Moses Malone (Sixers)
Bobby Jones (Sixers)
Sidney Moncrief (Bucks)
Maurice Cheeks (Sixers)
Second Team
Larry BIrd (Celtics)
Kevin McHale (Celtics)
Michael Cooper (Lakers)
'83-'84
First Team
Moses Malone (Sixers)
Bobby Jones (Sixers)
Michael Cooper (Lakers)
Sidney Moncrief (Bucks)
Second Team
Larry BIrd (Celtics)
Dennis Johnson (Celtics)
Kareem (Lakers)
'84-'85
First Team
Maurice Cheeks (Sixers)
Michael Cooper (Lakers)
Sidney Moncrief (Bucks)
Second Team
Dennis Johnson (Celtics)
Bobby Jones (Sixers)
Olajuwon (Rockets)
'85-'86
First Team
Maurice Cheeks (Sixers)
Kevin McHale (Celtics)
Sidney Moncrief (Bucks)
Second Team
Dennis Johnson (Celtics)
Michael Cooper (Lakers)
'86-'87
First Team
Michael Cooper (Lakers)
Kevin McHale (Celtics)
Dennis Johnson (Celtics)
Olajuwon (Rockets)
Second Team
Maurice Cheeks (Sixers)
Michael Cooper (Lakers)
I could go on, but the elite teams of the '80s are very well represented on the NBA's All-Defense team during the decade.
I think Stargellfan's contention about the teams of the '80s versus the two teams in this year's final (as opposed to the talent pool) has a lot of merit.
Good reply to my post. I forgot about the zone defense bit, didn't take that into consideration. I guess what I wanted to say is that in the 80s you'd have more players who were defensive stalwarts first, scorers, etc second. Cooper, Bobby Jones, and (to a lesser extent, Dennis Johnson) were players like this. Magic was never much on defense. Bird, I always took him to be an average defender at best, didn't realize he was 2nd-team All-Defense one year. Nowadays, it's the norm to have the best players also be top-notch defenders, players like Nash and Stockton are passe (although you do still have Tony Parker). Kobe used to be very, very good defensively. LeBron is an outstanding defense player. Chris Paul.
Maybe I'm reacting more to the sophistication of today's defenses in comparison to those in ancient times. But I do believe overall that the level of individual defense nowadays is superior to what we've seen in any previous era in the NBA.
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