Your list of All-time NBA Players better than LeBron?
- Thread starter john4psu
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Apples are not oranges. Kareem was the most dominant in his realm, most of us witnessed his dominance. Shaq was dominant in his role. Jordan was dominant in several skills and I was a Jordan fan. Many will say he took too many shots and his percentage will take him out of the "best" conversation but much like Talor or JC3 I judge things on who do you want with the ball... down 1 with 13 seconds left. That doesn't make them the best either.
Better than Lebron I would say Jordan, Kareem, Russell, and Wilt but it's couched in the fact that yesterday is not today. My criterion is the ability to take over and make a game a joke.
Better than Lebron I would say Jordan, Kareem, Russell, and Wilt but it's couched in the fact that yesterday is not today. My criterion is the ability to take over and make a game a joke.
kind of hard to compare guys that play different positions, but below is my list of players that I think were better than LeBron. They are listed in random order.
- Wilt
- Abdul-Jabbar
- Pistol Pete Maravich
- Hakeem Olajuwon
- Oscar
- Jerry West
- Bill Russell
- Bill Walton
- Dr. J
- Moses Malone
- Elgin Baylor
- Larry Bird
- George Gervin
- MJ
- Karl Malone
- Magic
- Havlicek
- Sir Charles Barkley
- Kobe
- Tim Duncan
Guys that I would argue are at about the same level:
- Tiny Archibald
- Andrew Toney
- Clyde Drexler
- Patrick Ewing
- Walt Frazier
- Wes Unseld
- Nate Thurmond
- David Robinson
- Willis Reed
- Scottie Pippen
- Shaq
- Earl the Pearl
- Kevin McHale
- Billy Cunningham
- Hal Greer
Guys that played really early in the NBA, and were dominant at the time, but I've only seen film/video of (i.e., never saw in person), so it's hard to compare:
- Paul Arizin
- Bob Cousy
- George Mikan
- Tom Gola
I'm sure I'm leaving out a few, as well as overrating some.
It's easier to evaluate a player after their career is ended, though Kobe and Duncan are basically done, so I went and made an evaluation of them versus LeBron.
- Wilt
- Abdul-Jabbar
- Pistol Pete Maravich
- Hakeem Olajuwon
- Oscar
- Jerry West
- Bill Russell
- Bill Walton
- Dr. J
- Moses Malone
- Elgin Baylor
- Larry Bird
- George Gervin
- MJ
- Karl Malone
- Magic
- Havlicek
- Sir Charles Barkley
- Kobe
- Tim Duncan
Guys that I would argue are at about the same level:
- Tiny Archibald
- Andrew Toney
- Clyde Drexler
- Patrick Ewing
- Walt Frazier
- Wes Unseld
- Nate Thurmond
- David Robinson
- Willis Reed
- Scottie Pippen
- Shaq
- Earl the Pearl
- Kevin McHale
- Billy Cunningham
- Hal Greer
Guys that played really early in the NBA, and were dominant at the time, but I've only seen film/video of (i.e., never saw in person), so it's hard to compare:
- Paul Arizin
- Bob Cousy
- George Mikan
- Tom Gola
I'm sure I'm leaving out a few, as well as overrating some.
It's easier to evaluate a player after their career is ended, though Kobe and Duncan are basically done, so I went and made an evaluation of them versus LeBron.
LOL, it gets worse (for what you are implying). In looking at what I posted, I see that I did not key in Hal Greer in the list of players that I think are equal to LeBron. I'll edit my list to add him.
Considering what a Sixers fan I've been over the years, iI should get some kudos for including so many Celtics.
Tom
Tom: Everyone is entitled to his (or her) opinion, but to say that Lebron is not even in the Top 20 of all time players is, IMO, laughable.
Michael Jordan and LeBron. LeBron is the MJ with Magic and Bird skills. And he is a huge human. LeBron might be the most gifted athlete that has ever lived.
I mean seriously nobody his size does the things he is so good at. Feel weird saying he is getting old given that he is like a few days apart from me but he is the best I have ever watched play basketball.
You take the greatest of most of the great all time players and it equals LeBron.
I mean seriously nobody his size does the things he is so good at. Feel weird saying he is getting old given that he is like a few days apart from me but he is the best I have ever watched play basketball.
You take the greatest of most of the great all time players and it equals LeBron.
Lebron is the most physically gifted player to ever play. When he makes up his mind to go to the basket he is impossible to stop. He is also great defensively. On the other hand, he is an average shooter at best and he also misses a lot of big foul shots. As great as he has been in this series overall, and Cleveland would have been destroyed without Lebron, he was not great down the stretch of the first two games. As to your question, I believe Lebron is definitely top 10 right now. I would currently have him behind Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Big O, Bird, and Chamberlain. I know there are many people who have Bill Russell number 1, but I don't. He was amazing defensively and his teams won all the time, but he was mediocre ,at best,offensively, especially when compared to others under consideration as the G.O.A.T. He was a center who shot 44% from the field and only 56% from the line. He never shot 50% from the field in a season. The only time Kareem shot under 50% was his last year.
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For only the second time in my online life, I have to ask "Tom, are you feaking kidding me? This is a joke right"?
Tom
I have to agree with Obli. Maravich? No defense. Erving? Couldn't shoot well enough to keep defenses honest. Wilt? Worthless when he had five fouls, probably the worst clutch great player ever. (Go read Simmons' book; he quotes many players saying that the rule was, when Wilt had five fouls, you go straight at him, he'd back off every time, he loved having the never-fouled-out record.) Off the top of my head, only Jordan and Jerry West could put together the top-level defense along with the all-world offense that Lebron brings to the table. More than any other player of the sixties and seventies, West would thrive in today's game.
As a life long NBA fan, I find some of these answers laughable. I think James is right there with Magic, Bird, Jabbar, and Jordan. I still consider Jordan the best ever.
I always hesitate to participate in these lists because there are so many variables that it is a fools errand to compare (Robinson vs Clemente for example).
But what we are seeing has NEVER BEEN DONE in the NBA. Consider that James and a bunch of other warm bodies is up 2-1 on a team that won almost 70 regular season games. On offense, there is no "option two". The entire offense goes through James. With Bird, Jordan and everyone else mentioned (except for, perhaps, Pistol Pete) they all had all-stars and HOFers. Who is the all star with James? None. Who of these guys will be in the Hall of Fame? None. JR Smith? Mathew Dellevedova?
The GSW are guarding him with five different players. They often triple team him.
And while we are at it...most casual observers (those who do not understand the game) quit looking at points scored!!! Cavs are up 2-1 due to their DEFENSE (as penn state fans, I am shocked this forum doesn't understand defense). Yeah, James is averaging 41 PPG (because he has to). But he is also averaging 12 rebounds and 8 assists per game. In the Eastern Conf Finals series, had the Cavs not blown out ATL in the last game, he'd have AVERAGED a triple double.
I am sorry, you are seeing true greatness being displayed. GSW is a very good, if not great team. Perhaps the best back court of all time. James is playing like a man among boys. He's averaging well over 40 minutes a game and his legs are shot. (and this is what casual bball fans don't get, in the finals your legs are shot and you outside shots don't fall) It is truly a herculean effort. If the Cavs win, it will go down as one of the best NBA efforts of all time. Perhaps, one of the best sports stories of the 2000's.
Sit back an enjoy it.
I always hesitate to participate in these lists because there are so many variables that it is a fools errand to compare (Robinson vs Clemente for example).
But what we are seeing has NEVER BEEN DONE in the NBA. Consider that James and a bunch of other warm bodies is up 2-1 on a team that won almost 70 regular season games. On offense, there is no "option two". The entire offense goes through James. With Bird, Jordan and everyone else mentioned (except for, perhaps, Pistol Pete) they all had all-stars and HOFers. Who is the all star with James? None. Who of these guys will be in the Hall of Fame? None. JR Smith? Mathew Dellevedova?
The GSW are guarding him with five different players. They often triple team him.
And while we are at it...most casual observers (those who do not understand the game) quit looking at points scored!!! Cavs are up 2-1 due to their DEFENSE (as penn state fans, I am shocked this forum doesn't understand defense). Yeah, James is averaging 41 PPG (because he has to). But he is also averaging 12 rebounds and 8 assists per game. In the Eastern Conf Finals series, had the Cavs not blown out ATL in the last game, he'd have AVERAGED a triple double.
I am sorry, you are seeing true greatness being displayed. GSW is a very good, if not great team. Perhaps the best back court of all time. James is playing like a man among boys. He's averaging well over 40 minutes a game and his legs are shot. (and this is what casual bball fans don't get, in the finals your legs are shot and you outside shots don't fall) It is truly a herculean effort. If the Cavs win, it will go down as one of the best NBA efforts of all time. Perhaps, one of the best sports stories of the 2000's.
Sit back an enjoy it.
3 guys alive today would probably say they are the best ever. Most of Tom's list themselves are individually already putting LeBron aside Jordan. Those were great players and Barkley was great but he wouldn't even accept the comparison let alone possibly being considered greater than LeBron. None of them would.
Exactly correct. If you want to see a great interview, check out the post game interview with D-Wade. You can feel the love and respect. Also, the basketball IQ is off the charts. BTW, James has been apologizing for shooting so much ever since Kyrie went down (he missed much of the semi and conf finals too).
If you have never seen Wilt Chamberlain, you have missed the greatest. And, he played against many of the best. In his prime, he was unstoppable and changed the game of basketball.
Impossible to say. Lebron & Jordan are probably the two most gifted athletes. Magic & Bird did a better job getting teammates involved.
Lebron is still young and has a lot of years left. Bird would be lost trying to cover Lebron if you're being honest. Magic is a step slower as well.
My list that doesn't include centers is....
MJ.
That is all.
My list that doesn't include centers is....
MJ.
That is all.
That's what I was getting at when it comes to LeBron basically being a hybrid of ALL the best. Most unselfish player on a superstar level ever. He can play every position. LeBron's greatest gift might be his ability to make average players around him look good, and good players around him sometimes look great.
You think Magic and Bird did a better job getting teammates involved? yeah, easy to say when your teammates are Bill Walton, Kevin McHale, James Worthy, and Abdule Jabbar. How about when your #1 teammate is hurt (Irving, who is only 23), and #2 is Love (who hasn't played in the last 12 games). James is getting teammates involved named Dellevadova, JR Smith, Shumpert, and Mozgov (and these are the starters). I am willing to bet 95% of this board never heard of these people six months ago (Unless they were Knicks fans).
This is a great inquisitive post.
Tom’s list is quite comprehensive, although I may bump Frazier up to his Tier 1 and bump some of the older guys off of the list. The way I look at it (using Tom’s Tier 1) is players who forced the entire league to adjust their roster. Those guys are Shaq, Hakeem, Jabbar, Jordan, Wilt, Duncan (well most of Tom’s Tier 1). I would add a super Tier to Tom’s Tier 1 for those players who led* their teams to championships.
I would then add a super super Tier 1 which would be based on image, composure, attitude, and competitiveness. This is where guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird and Kareem rise above the rest. These attributes absolutely matter. Players such as Jordan and Kareem were killers. But they also took their image and attitude seriously. They were absolute professionals. Bird was slower than Lebron but the 80s Celtics vs. the James’ Heat or Cavs would be an awesome matchup because Larry Legend would’ve found a way. You can just imagine Larry walking right out onto the court and jabbing at Lebron to get in his head.
Lebron has a ways to go, and he’s made some positive strides. If he gets 2 or 3 ships with the Cavs; stays with the Cavs for his entire career; stops whining; etc., he’ll easily get there. (He's just a little too dramatic for me)
I have developed a very elaborate theory about Lebron’s game that is way too long to put in this already long post. Lebron must start turning his back to the basket more often than not. By using the post and backing into the lane off of the dribble, Lebron could easily increase his FG% by 5-10% and his PPG by 5-10pts. It will also increase his time on the court, reduce turnovers, and provide more stamina late in the 4th. I don’t know why he hasn’t done this yet, but if I had to guess it is because the flow of the game has changed so much for the worse. Right now Lebron is using his large frame and speed to force his way to the basket, very competently I might add. At other opportunities, he is settling for shots off the pass beyond 15’ or a fade away (which is not good at this point). He will not get calls (particularly late in the game) by forcing himself to the hoop when he’s squared to the basket. (See Game 1).
The one big-HUGE positive that sets Lebron apart from many of his predecessors (other than his frame-to-the-hoop un-stoppability) is that he actually passes the ball, extremely proficiently. And I’m not talking about just chalking up a few assists per game. He actually looks for teammates in situations where a younger Jordan or Kobe would just shoot.
Sorry for the long post.
By the way, my super super super Tier 1 is Jordan and Jordan alone.
Tom’s list is quite comprehensive, although I may bump Frazier up to his Tier 1 and bump some of the older guys off of the list. The way I look at it (using Tom’s Tier 1) is players who forced the entire league to adjust their roster. Those guys are Shaq, Hakeem, Jabbar, Jordan, Wilt, Duncan (well most of Tom’s Tier 1). I would add a super Tier to Tom’s Tier 1 for those players who led* their teams to championships.
I would then add a super super Tier 1 which would be based on image, composure, attitude, and competitiveness. This is where guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird and Kareem rise above the rest. These attributes absolutely matter. Players such as Jordan and Kareem were killers. But they also took their image and attitude seriously. They were absolute professionals. Bird was slower than Lebron but the 80s Celtics vs. the James’ Heat or Cavs would be an awesome matchup because Larry Legend would’ve found a way. You can just imagine Larry walking right out onto the court and jabbing at Lebron to get in his head.
Lebron has a ways to go, and he’s made some positive strides. If he gets 2 or 3 ships with the Cavs; stays with the Cavs for his entire career; stops whining; etc., he’ll easily get there. (He's just a little too dramatic for me)
I have developed a very elaborate theory about Lebron’s game that is way too long to put in this already long post. Lebron must start turning his back to the basket more often than not. By using the post and backing into the lane off of the dribble, Lebron could easily increase his FG% by 5-10% and his PPG by 5-10pts. It will also increase his time on the court, reduce turnovers, and provide more stamina late in the 4th. I don’t know why he hasn’t done this yet, but if I had to guess it is because the flow of the game has changed so much for the worse. Right now Lebron is using his large frame and speed to force his way to the basket, very competently I might add. At other opportunities, he is settling for shots off the pass beyond 15’ or a fade away (which is not good at this point). He will not get calls (particularly late in the game) by forcing himself to the hoop when he’s squared to the basket. (See Game 1).
The one big-HUGE positive that sets Lebron apart from many of his predecessors (other than his frame-to-the-hoop un-stoppability) is that he actually passes the ball, extremely proficiently. And I’m not talking about just chalking up a few assists per game. He actually looks for teammates in situations where a younger Jordan or Kobe would just shoot.
Sorry for the long post.
By the way, my super super super Tier 1 is Jordan and Jordan alone.
The fact that you can sign one player and win a championship in the first year says more about the quality of the league than it does the player himself. People are posting about the HOF quality guys surrounding Bird and Magic but that was at a time when the NBA was strong and there were solid quality teams. The fact that LeBron and the four dwarves are beating a team that won 70 games says it all. LeBron is a great player but on the island of one armed men, the two armed man is king.
If you go at this from a baseball aspect, and use the 'five tools' of basketball, you have shooting, scoring (they are different), passing, defense and rebounding. Yes you can make other 'tools' but I'll use those and Lebron is an A scorer, passer, defender and rebounder. He is a B- shooter. Granted he is 6'9" 260 so the rebounding and defending is different than other guys but Magic was the best passer ever A+, an A rebounder but a B at the others. Bird was a better defender than people today give credit for, ask the Lakers and Pistons. Bird was A+ shooter and scorer, A passer and rebounder and B defender. He would be the only guy along with MJ that is ahead of Lebron.
I personally think the next closest guy is Barkley. Scoring, rebounding were A+, Shooting, defense and passing are B to B+ range.
I personally think the next closest guy is Barkley. Scoring, rebounding were A+, Shooting, defense and passing are B to B+ range.
Great post though don't agree with it all. If you are going to call LeBron a whiner I think he is in the company of every great one. Magic Johnson whined about calls before they happened.
Yeah...err, no. The "quality of the league" has never been better. If you aren't a fan of Curry's game, you aren't a fan of basketball. What he can do rivals Pistol Pete (watch his warmup routine).
To your point, the Cavs and not down two all-star players, they are down three (Varajau, Love and Irving). Not a single starter for game one of the regular season, is eligible to play for the Cavs in the Finals. The Cavs traded for Mozgov (a second string center for Denver) and two guys the Knicks no longer wanted (JR and Shumpert). So the starters are James, Mozgov, Shumpert, Dellevadova and Tristan Thompson (who was the sixth man on opening day backing up Varajau who blew out his Achilles in the first ten games).
So true, it's funny. The game is at a level it has never been. The entire Western Conference playoff lot would have went dynasty hunting if you placed them in the 70's or 80's. 90's Bulls, ok step back haha
I would never cite Simmons when discussing Wilt. The Sports Guy's Boston bias colors everything he says.
Bird's and James' APG numbers are pretty equal - which is impressive considering some pretty awful Cleveland teams LBJ played with early in his career.
I was very specific about what I said about Wilt. He quoted several players, Havlicek, West, Rick Barry, they all said, Wilt was worthless with five fouls. Those were not Simmons' words.
He was good, but, seriously, if you wanted to win a championship, would you pick Wilt? Would you pick Pete Maravich (my all time favorite player)? Would you pick Charles Barkley?
Unless this is tongue in cheek, you lose all credibility by saying that there are 35 player equal or better to Lebron.
If I had to give a top five, it would be:
West would be 6, Dr. J 7, Pete 8. I've never seen anyone win an NBA championship with four or five other guys that don't do much more than defend and rebound. We'll see if he can pull that off.
- Jordan
- The Big O
- Magic
- James
- Bird
West would be 6, Dr. J 7, Pete 8. I've never seen anyone win an NBA championship with four or five other guys that don't do much more than defend and rebound. We'll see if he can pull that off.
