Yariguin

DeadHead11

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Aug 15, 2017
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Any idea what that was about? I was going to drop some acid and maybe get enlightened. I get their finger pointing and ref riding and jumping around....they are who they are.....but the shoe????????????
Congrats to Jason and Kyle!

I think TB was implying that PSU had their running shoes on. I was waiting for him to chuck it at Cody.
 

PSUAllTheWay

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Jan 18, 2015
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Any idea what that was about? I was going to drop some acid and maybe get enlightened. I get their finger pointing and ref riding and jumping around....they are who they are.....but the shoe????????????

I believe Brands was trying to tell the ref that RBY was using a toe hold to try and pry ADs foot away from his body when AD was in on a shot. Brands probably talked to Rivera about it before the match. RBY likes to turn an opponent's shot into a nearside cradle and he needs to pull the foot out to the side to get it locked up. But you aren't allowed to use just the toe to do that and I think Brands thought he was.
 

a_mshaffer

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Dec 8, 2014
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jason did look good. Experience thing... regardless of the first point it looked like he forced the step out and the russian was waiting. I also think the chest wrap was a desperate act he didn't need to take... regardless lots of experience gained over there!
 
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GogglesPaizano

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Feb 6, 2018
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I believe Brands was trying to tell the ref that RBY was using a toe hold to try and pry ADs foot away from his body when AD was in on a shot. Brands probably talked to Rivera about it before the match. RBY likes to turn an opponent's shot into a nearside cradle and he needs to pull the foot out to the side to get it locked up. But you aren't allowed to use just the toe to do that and I think Brands thought he was.

Did this happen in Russia?
 

nerfstate

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Oct 10, 2017
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As much as I want to, I don't disagree w/ this. Jason's needed adjustment here is that top-level competition at the Senior level have all mastered positional wrestling and defense (to varying agrees). In the NCAA, Jason could out pace nearly everyone, but I think if he's going to get to the top of heap, he's going to have to learn to be a bit more discerning, and also be able to set up attacks in general a bit more.

 
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El-Jefe

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Jul 27, 2012
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As much as I want to, I don't disagree w/ this. Jason's needed adjustment here is that top-level competition at the Senior level have all mastered positional wrestling and defense (to varying agrees). In the NCAA, Jason could out pace nearly everyone, but I think if he's going to get to the top of heap, he's going to have to learn to be a bit more discerning, and also be able to set up attacks in general a bit more.

Oliver is only partly right. Jason still got in on Valiev's legs 2x more than vice-versa.

That's not to say Jason can't improve setups. But he should not reduce attack volume to reach legs 1x like Valiev did.
 

a_mshaffer

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Oliver is only partly right. Jason still got in on Valiev's legs 2x more than vice-versa.

That's not to say Jason can't improve setups. But he should not reduce attack volume to reach legs 1x like Valiev did.
sometimes shooting is how openings are made!
 

98lberEating2Lunches

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Feb 11, 2018
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On 1st "push out" it looks like Russian initiates edge action and his right elbow contacts mat slightly before Jason's foot. Referee has no clear view of that elbow. Russian looked to be playing the edge and grounded rule to his advantage.

Should Jason have received the first point? I guess I could've dictated future match strategy and Jason's pace.

I don't know the FS rules very well, so appreciate any insights.
 

nerfstate

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Oliver is only partly right. Jason still got in on Valiev's legs 2x more than vice-versa.

That's not to say Jason can't improve setups. But he should not reduce attack volume to reach legs 1x like Valiev did.
FWIW, I don't think that's Jordan Oliver's page/channel--some Korean guy. I guess it comes down to whether or not the high attack rate is putting Jason in bad spots or scoring spots. I'm not necessarily saying Jason should slow down--at least not much--but I don't think some of what he was able to do in the NCAA's applies well either. Those misdirection/goofy-foot shots from space just aren't going to get him what they used to, IMO.
 

tpnlion

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I just watched the entire match and it seemed to me the Russian played very good defense the whole match. Scored 4 on way over aggressive Nolf move. Otherwise he did nothing.
 

WildTurk

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Jul 25, 2011
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I just watched the entire match and it seemed to me the Russian played very good defense the whole match. Scored 4 on way over aggressive Nolf move. Otherwise he did nothing.
Valiev at 22 years old did a lot of little things well that aren't easily noticed as much. Cat quick with his reflexes and mat awareness. He seemed to be a step ahead of Nolf the whole match. Very savvy. He probably has done nothing but train freestyle his whole life
 
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tpnlion

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Valiev at 22 years old did a lot of little things well that aren't easily noticed as much. Cat quick with his reflexes and mat awareness. He seemed to be a step ahead of Nolf the whole match. Very savvy. He probably has done nothing but train freestyle his whole life
Agree on the quickness…When do you see Nolf wrestle a whole match and not get to a leg once? I almost felt like that move he tried that cost him 4 was out of frustration.
 

zzs006

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Mar 27, 2017
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DT had to change his style a bit and even though his attack rate is extremely high it’s not what it was when he first started at the international level. I can see Nolf on a very similar path. It took DT many years to really break through and I think Nolf will get there as well. Conditioning and a high attack rate are 2 of Nolf best weapons. He just needs to refine his attacks and not shoot just to shoot. In college that worked because it would usually at least create a scramble and Nolf was just a superior wrestler so he would usually come out on top. At this level that doesn’t work. He needs to continue to work on his handfighting and snaps and attack of off that instead of from open with very little setup. He seems to have taken a definite step this past year and I think his progression is going to continue and he will be a world champion before it’s over.
 

Psalm 1 guy

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Nov 3, 2019
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Agree on the quickness…When do you see Nolf wrestle a whole match and not get to a leg once? I almost felt like that move he tried that cost him 4 was out of frustration.
For those a little more knowledgeable about FS scoring, do you believe Valiev's second two was correctly scored? I didn't believe Jason got back to a defensible position.
 

SRATH

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I believe Brands was trying to tell the ref that RBY was using a toe hold to try and pry ADs foot away from his body when AD was in on a shot. Brands probably talked to Rivera about it before the match. RBY likes to turn an opponent's shot into a nearside cradle and he needs to pull the foot out to the side to get it locked up. But you aren't allowed to use just the toe to do that and I think Brands thought he was.
Very reasonable explanation.......thank you. Only one of the Brands would take their shoe off, bend it in all sorts of directions and point......yet say nothing. I did enjoy their special. Good guys even if they are looney.
 

WildTurk

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For those a little more knowledgeable about FS scoring, do you believe Valiev's second two was correctly scored? I didn't believe Jason got back to a defensible position.
The score was 1-0. Nolf was in good position with a chest lock, then attempted a roll through. He slipped and Valiev got on top for 2. So 3-0. Then Valiev gut wrenched him for 2 more going out of bounds. 5-0

Are you saying he wasn't in a defensible position after Valiev gained control on top after the failed chestlock roll?
 

Psalm 1 guy

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The score was 1-0. Nolf was in good position with a chest lock, then attempted a roll through. He slipped and Valiev got on top for 2. So 3-0. Then Valiev gut wrenched him for 2 more going out of bounds. 5-0

Are you saying he wasn't in a defensible position after Valiev gained control on top after the failed chestlock roll?
Yes. After Jason's failed roll through, he never gets back bellied out, and is still slightly on his side with Valiev's left arm wrapped deeply around his stomach. Valiev then completes his gut wrench for an additional two point exposure. I know with multiple turns back-to-back the defensive wrestler needs to be able to get back to a defensible position for additional exposures to count. I guess my questions are, did Jason get back to a defensible position after the failed roll through or does that rule not apply in this particular scenario? The sequence is around the 7:10 mark in the video.Nolf
 

Ambrowns

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Oct 4, 2019
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Yes. After Jason's failed roll through, he never gets back bellied out, and is still slightly on his side with Valiev's left arm wrapped deeply around his stomach. Valiev then completes his gut wrench for an additional two point exposure. I know with multiple turns back-to-back the defensive wrestler needs to be able to get back to a defensible position for additional exposures to count. I guess my questions are, did Jason get back to a defensible position after the failed roll through or does that rule not apply in this particular scenario? The sequence is around the 7:10 mark in the video.Nolf

It looks to me like the initial 2 points for Valiev were due to a takedown, the 2nd 2 points were for the exposure with the gut wrench. Since the first 2 points were not from an exposure, Valiev wasn’t required to allow Nolf to return to a defensible position to score off of the gut wrench.

However, even if he was required to start from a defensible position there, it could probably be argued that Nolf was in a defensible position at the start of the gut wrench. He was pretty close to being fully bellied out at one point, though the camera angles make that a little difficult to be sure of.
 
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Psalm 1 guy

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It looks to me like the initial 2 points for Valiev were due to a takedown, the 2nd 2 points were for the exposure with the gut wrench. Since the first 2 points were not from an exposure, Valiev wasn’t required to allow Nolf to return to a defensible position to score off of the gut wrench.

However, even if he was required to start from a defensible position there, it could probably be argued that Nolf was in a defensible position at the start of the gut wrench. He was pretty close to being fully bellied out at one point, though the camera angles make that a little difficult to be sure of.
Thank you for the explanation.