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Wrestling Season

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Whether you agree with the 180 by the league on football, it seems to me that the decision to play football greatly enhances the probability of a wrestling season as normal as possible under the circumstances.
What do you think?
 
Whether you agree with the 180 by the league on football, it seems to me that the decision to play football greatly enhances the probability of a wrestling season as normal as possible under the circumstances.
What do you think?
NCAA just announced that basketball will start on Nov 25.

That's more good news for the prospects of a wrestling season.
 
If no fans present, then EVERY match should be on BTN. Even if some are delayed.

For some years now EVERY BIG dual has been on either BTN or BTN+. Doubt they will change that. Much cheaper to put the dual on BTN+ and let the students actually produce the show.
 
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a few things:

1. A reminder that political discussions are not allowed on this board. I had to edit several posts in this thread, and delete several other posts in this thread, due to political content. IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO AVOID POLITICS IN POSTS, at least for most posters.

2. I was talking with 3 high school wrestling refs today. All 3 are leaning strongly toward not reffing this upcoming season in PA. Between weigh-ins, starts/re-starts in neutral, raising the hands of the winner, etc., none of them feel comfortable that there is a way to ref and not put themselves at an increased risk of contracting the SARS-CoV-2 virus. That's a very, very, very small sub-set of PA wrestling refs, but it's something to consider. And keep in mind, while there are some younger wrestling refs, the vast majority of them are aged 50 or older, so this could be an issue.

3. will college refs have the same issues? I haven't a clue. I've kind of held off on contacting the college wresting refs I know until it was clearer what the NCAA was going to do, what the B1G was going to do, etc.
 
1. A reminder that political discussions are not allowed on this board. I had to edit several posts in this thread, and delete several other posts in this thread, due to political content. IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO AVOID POLITICS IN POSTS, at least for most posters.


Any chance that you could do me a favor and swing over to HR and put an end to the COVID-19 thread that keeps on making its way to the top? Please🙏🙏🙏🙏
 
a few things:

1. A reminder that political discussions are not allowed on this board. I had to edit several posts in this thread, and delete several other posts in this thread, due to political content. IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO AVOID POLITICS IN POSTS, at least for most posters.

2. I was talking with 3 high school wrestling refs today. All 3 are leaning strongly toward not reffing this upcoming season in PA. Between weigh-ins, starts/re-starts in neutral, raising the hands of the winner, etc., none of them feel comfortable that there is a way to ref and not put themselves at an increased risk of contracting the SARS-CoV-2 virus. That's a very, very, very small sub-set of PA wrestling refs, but it's something to consider. And keep in mind, while there are some younger wrestling refs, the vast majority of them are aged 50 or older, so this could be an issue.

3. will college refs have the same issues? I haven't a clue. I've kind of held off on contacting the college wresting refs I know until it was clearer what the NCAA was going to do, what the B1G was going to do, etc.
All three of the things you mention are pretty easy to overcome.

Weigh-ins: If you can't see a digital scale from 6' away, perhaps you might be missing important things on the mat, too. Time to hang up the shoes.

Neutral restarts: What is the magic in putting your hand between the wrestlers to restart? Stand back 6' and blow the whistle.

Raising the hand: According to one NCAA Division 2 college president, wrestlers won't be allowed to shake hands after the match, because covid, so the ref can just stand back six feet and tell the winning wrestler to raise his own hands.
 
🤣I really hope they misquoted this president. Wrestlers can't shake hands after wrestling each other?
Read this. I don't think it was misquoted...
 
All three of the things you mention are pretty easy to overcome.

I think you're missing the etc. in my statement. I simply gave a few examples of concerns. There are no shortage of challenges.

Weigh-ins: If you can't see a digital scale from 6' away, perhaps you might be missing important things on the mat, too. Time to hang up the shoes.

In high school, both teams must be present at the weigh-ins. Most of the time, the room where the weigh-ins take place is pretty small, the scale is set up in a location where the ref, and coaches from both team are too close. Often, at the beginning of weigh-ins, I move both teams back, but after 4 or 5 weights, it looks as though that never took place as both teams are crowding forward. Per current regulations, wrestlers could not be wearing a mask at weigh ins. The PIAA does have the ability to change that.

Neutral restarts: What is the magic in putting your hand between the wrestlers to restart? Stand back 6' and blow the whistle.

That's an interesting suggestion. I don't believe the NFHS rules specify that a ref must be in the traditional position (i.e., between the wrestlers) at the start. However, in the NFHS illustrations that accompany the rules, it specifically states "In the neutral start the referee should be in tight which will help to eliminate false starts and then back out." in that context, either the NFHS or the PIAA would need to change the rule, or give a special waver on the rule.

Raising the hand: According to one NCAA Division 2 college president, wrestlers won't be allowed to shake hands after the match, because covid, so the ref can just stand back six feet and tell the winning wrestler to raise his own hands.

Rule 6-5-2 from the NFHS rule book (end-of-match procedure): The wrestlers shall shake hands and the referee shall declare the winner by raising the winning wrestler's hand.

What the NCAA does is immaterial in this discussion.

A big issue is also wearing masks. There is no good way to wear a mask and also blow a whistle. And between raising hands, and starting from neutral, you're asking a ref to frequently put their hand to their mouth, when that hand may have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2 droplets.

In many fall sports, refs are trying out electronic whistles. The early word is that they are OK, but they can be difficult/impossible to hear in a loud environment.

Etc., etc., etc. There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for ensuring the safety of the refs in this environment. And even if the sport attempts to address many of them, it still comes down to how safe a ref feels. As I indicated earlier, the wrestling refs I've spoken with have a lot of concern at this time about reffing wrestling.
 
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In many fall sports, refs are trying out electronic whistles. The early word is that they are OK, but they can be difficult/impossible to hear in a loud environment.
I'm watching the Tulsa-OKST football game right now, and the electronic whistles are definitely a mixed bag. They can be heard pretty clearly when plays are clearly over. But there have been multiple instances of plays continuing well after the whistle was blown -- for example, full drop-back with a downfield completion after a false start penalty. (On at least that one play, the whistle cannot be heard on replay.)

Safe to say players aren't consistently hearing it. Refs are having to run in to stop plays, which is undesirable. (Thankfully this has been a cleanly played game, so those instances are fairly rare.) Maybe the refs need to go double-fisted with the whistles.

For reference, there are approx 15k fans in the stands, plus at least the home band. This being an ESPN broadcast, there might be as many field microphones as fans in the stands.

That said, football refs are much farther away from the action than wrestling refs. Purely a guess, but I don't think e-whistles would be an issue in wrestling with current attendance limits -- unless some gym/arena forgets to turn down the PA system volume.

Though refs trying to switch hands with the whistle in order to award points with the correct wristband, is comically promising.
 
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I think you're missing the etc. in my statement. I simply gave a few examples of concerns. There are no shortage of challenges.



In high school, both teams must be present at the weigh-ins. Most of the time, the room where the weigh-ins take place is pretty small, the scale is set up in a location where the ref, and coaches from both team are too close. Often, at the beginning of weigh-ins, I move both teams back, but after 4 or 5 weights, it looks as though that never took place as both teams are crowding forward. Per current regulations, wrestlers could not be wearing a mask at weigh ins. The PIAA does have the ability to change that.



That's an interesting suggestion. I don't believe the NFHS rules specify that a ref must be in the traditional position (i.e., between the wrestlers) at the start. However, in the NFHS illustrations that accompany the rules, it specifically states "In the neutral start the referee should be in tight which will help to eliminate false starts and then back out." in that context, either the NFHS or the PIAA would need to change the rule, or give a special waver on the rule.



Rule 6-5-2 from the NFHS rule book (end-of-match procedure): The wrestlers shall shake hands and the referee shall declare the winner by raising the winning wrestler's hand.

What the NCAA does is immaterial in this discussion.

A big issue is also wearing masks. There is no good way to wear a mask and also blow a whistle. And between raising hands, and starting from neutral, you're asking a ref to frequently put their hand to their mouth, when that hand may have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2 droplets.

In many fall sports, refs are trying out electronic whistles. The early word is that they are OK, but they can be difficult/impossible to hear in a loud environment.

Etc., etc., etc. There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for ensuring the safety of the refs in this environment. And even if the sport attempts to address many of them, it still comes down to how safe a ref feels. As I indicated earlier, the wrestling refs I've spoken with have a lot of concern at this time about reffing wrestling.
The ref at tonight's NLWC event is wearing a faceshield, which makes his whistling just fine.
 
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I'm watching the Tulsa-OKST football game right now, and the electronic whistles are definitely a mixed bag. They can be heard pretty clearly when plays are clearly over. But there have been multiple instances of plays continuing well after the whistle was blown -- for example, full drop-back with a downfield completion after a false start penalty. (On at least that one play, the whistle cannot be heard on replay.)

Safe to say players aren't consistently hearing it. Refs are having to run in to stop plays, which is undesirable. (Thankfully this has been a cleanly played game, so those instances are fairly rare.) Maybe the refs need to go double-fisted with the whistles.

For reference, there are approx 15k fans in the stands, plus at least the home band. This being an ESPN broadcast, there might be as many field microphones as fans in the stands.

That said, football refs are much farther away from the action than wrestling refs. Purely a guess, but I don't think e-whistles would be an issue in wrestling with current attendance limits -- unless some gym/arena forgets to turn down the PA system volume.

Though refs trying to switch hands with the whistle in order to award points with the correct wristband, is comically promising.
What triggers an e-whistle? I’d think a hand-initiated sound would be easy to engineer, and wrestling officials don’t need their grip for other reasons except on rare occasions, no?
 
I think you're missing the etc. in my statement. I simply gave a few examples of concerns. There are no shortage of challenges.



In high school, both teams must be present at the weigh-ins. Most of the time, the room where the weigh-ins take place is pretty small, the scale is set up in a location where the ref, and coaches from both team are too close. Often, at the beginning of weigh-ins, I move both teams back, but after 4 or 5 weights, it looks as though that never took place as both teams are crowding forward. Per current regulations, wrestlers could not be wearing a mask at weigh ins. The PIAA does have the ability to change that.



That's an interesting suggestion. I don't believe the NFHS rules specify that a ref must be in the traditional position (i.e., between the wrestlers) at the start. However, in the NFHS illustrations that accompany the rules, it specifically states "In the neutral start the referee should be in tight which will help to eliminate false starts and then back out." in that context, either the NFHS or the PIAA would need to change the rule, or give a special waver on the rule.



Rule 6-5-2 from the NFHS rule book (end-of-match procedure): The wrestlers shall shake hands and the referee shall declare the winner by raising the winning wrestler's hand.

What the NCAA does is immaterial in this discussion.

A big issue is also wearing masks. There is no good way to wear a mask and also blow a whistle. And between raising hands, and starting from neutral, you're asking a ref to frequently put their hand to their mouth, when that hand may have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2 droplets.

In many fall sports, refs are trying out electronic whistles. The early word is that they are OK, but they can be difficult/impossible to hear in a loud environment.

Etc., etc., etc. There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for ensuring the safety of the refs in this environment. And even if the sport attempts to address many of them, it still comes down to how safe a ref feels. As I indicated earlier, the wrestling refs I've spoken with have a lot of concern at this time about riffing wrestling.


Great post Tom.
I tried reffing with the electric whistle. I dont remember the brand. It was plenty loud. My problem was awarding points to the red wrestler while holding the whistle.
 
Having football and apparently basketball is definitely a step in the right direction, but I think it's pretty obvious that wrestling is pretty much THE most risky sport there is in terms of spreading viruses. There is no way to do it socially distanced, and the practice room is an ideal superspreader venue, so as soon as one guy gets it and goes to practice, the whole team will have it. As sad as it is, I'm just not optimistic about wrestling this season at all. We'll see I guess.
 
Having football and apparently basketball is definitely a step in the right direction, but I think it's pretty obvious that wrestling is pretty much THE most risky sport there is in terms of spreading viruses. There is no way to do it socially distanced, and the practice room is an ideal superspreader venue, so as soon as one guy gets it and goes to practice, the whole team will have it. As sad as it is, I'm just not optimistic about wrestling this season at all. We'll see I guess.
I do not necessarily believe that is true. I know a husband that got it but wife and kids did not. I won't be graphic about painting any pictures, but I know if my wife got something as contagious as you state I sure would get it.
 
Having football and apparently basketball is definitely a step in the right direction, but I think it's pretty obvious that wrestling is pretty much THE most risky sport there is in terms of spreading viruses. There is no way to do it socially distanced, and the practice room is an ideal superspreader venue, so as soon as one guy gets it and goes to practice, the whole team will have it. As sad as it is, I'm just not optimistic about wrestling this season at all. We'll see I guess.

The risk is substantially minimized if same day testing protocols are in place.
 
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Having football and apparently basketball is definitely a step in the right direction, but I think it's pretty obvious that wrestling is pretty much THE most risky sport there is in terms of spreading viruses. There is no way to do it socially distanced, and the practice room is an ideal superspreader venue, so as soon as one guy gets it and goes to practice, the whole team will have it. As sad as it is, I'm just not optimistic about wrestling this season at all. We'll see I guess.
Fortunately we will by then have data from a significant number of events: from Pan Ams in March, thru Olympic Duals in State College, Beat the Streets, the NLWC event, the upcoming PA Power event, Super 32, etc. Most of which involving athletes from multiple states or countries.

I expect the data to show no or very few cases from these events -- because the athletes and organizers are taking it seriously.

Whether the authorities follow the data or substitute their own judgment, remains to be seen.
 
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Raising the hand of the winning wrestler is nothing more than a tradition that can easily go away. The referee can announce the winner and point to him, without any contact. Or wave a little red or green flag.
 
Raising the hand of the winning wrestler is nothing more than a tradition that can easily go away. The referee can announce the winner and point to him, without any contact. Or wave a little red or green flag.

Good grief. I gave you the specific rule, and the specific text of the rule, that specifies that the ref must raise the hand of the winning wrestler in high school (which also carries over to middle school and to youth, as they follow the same rules except for weight classes and time of periods).

Whether the NFHS elects to change the rule, or whether the PIAA (or other state sports organizations) elects to give an exception to the rule for this season, remains to be seen. The later is the more likely scenario if a change is made, as the NFHS process to change rules is very drawn out, and mostly is completed at the end of the prior season.

The process of raising the hand of the winning wrestler is not a tradition in high school. It is specified in the rules. As such, the ref does not have the option of "announcing the winner" and pointing to him. In addition, "a little red or green flag" is not in the rules as permitted to be worn or used by the ref, so despite your claim that it could be used, any ref that did so would be breaking two different rules (as they currently stand), and wouldn't get assigned to many matches once word got out of them using that technique.
 
What triggers an e-whistle? I’d think a hand-initiated sound would be easy to engineer, and wrestling officials don’t need their grip for other reasons except on rare occasions, no?

pretty much all of them have a button that you depress to cause the electronic whistle to emit a sound. The better ones have 3 tones, with only the higher pitched and louder tone being applicable for use in loud situations.

In terms of refs needing their grip, it's true that there isn't a lot of call for that during a match. However, that's not really the challenge. As @El-Jefe speculated, and @hlstone indicated, there are challenges with awarding points, and the many hand signals that a ref needs to make, while also holding an electronic whistle. With a traditional whistle, refs are frequently releasing it (it's usually on a lanyard around the neck; some use a shorter lanyard attached to the shirt) to go through the point awarding or other hand processes. (First year refs often find it difficult to get accustomed to this.)

The biggest problem with electronic whistles is that they don't allow for modulation on the fly. For example, if there is a hold that moves to potentially dangerous, you don't want to whistle once with a monotone. You would whistle several times, with short, loud tweets, to get the move ended. Once you get used to it, you can use an electronic whistle to issue multiple tweets, but you can't increase the intensity of any of those tweets. The same issue exists when the wrestlers are going out of bounds (especially in a tournament situation, where mats are right next to each other). It's not an ideal situation, but it could be made to work, though it doesn't address all of the issues.
 
Two updates:

New Jersey appear to be planning to hold a pretty bare-bones season. You can read about the plan and some of he issues that exist with it, at THIS LINK.

In PA, wrestling refs (and for that matter, refs of all other sports) have to join a local chapter. The chapter is where all the referee training takes places before and during the season. I know of one wrestling chapter that is currently surveying all their refs, to get a sense of how many are planning to ref this coming year, and how many are not planning to ref due to the pandemic. In the info that accompanied the survey, the chapter mentioned that the organization that organizes the youth wrestling in the area has indicated that they are unlikely to be able to stage a season this winter. A big reason is that almost all of the youth programs practice during the week, and hold their matches on the weekend, at their local high schools (or middle schools), and they are being told that they will not have access to these facilities.
 
All three of the things you mention are pretty easy to overcome.

Weigh-ins: If you can't see a digital scale from 6' away, perhaps you might be missing important things on the mat, too. Time to hang up the shoes.

Neutral restarts: What is the magic in putting your hand between the wrestlers to restart? Stand back 6' and blow the whistle.

Raising the hand: According to one NCAA Division 2 college president, wrestlers won't be allowed to shake hands after the match, because covid, so the ref can just stand back six feet and tell the winning wrestler to raise his own hands.
Your post shows exactly what is missing today. Some people look for the problems while others look for solutions. It’s really not that hard.
Edit: I realize these are just examples. No need for anyone to point this out.
 
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The ref at tonight's NLWC event is wearing a faceshield, which makes his whistling just fine.


I confirm and wear my mask in stores and restaurants out of respect for others,but in no way feel it will prevent ME from contracting Covid, after all there are 7 holes in your head and a mask is only covering 3.
I never really understood what people feel these face-shields are preventing, even though you see lots of medical workers relying on them.
Lets put it this way, if one wrestler with Covid steps on the mat for a match,there will be 3 guys stepping off with it after the match if that ref is wearing just a face-shield.
This is especially true during an Iowa dual as the Iowa guy will be breathing maniacally by the end of the 1st.
 
Whether you agree with the 180 by the league on football, it seems to me that the decision to play football greatly enhances the probability of a wrestling season as normal as possible under the circumstances.
What do you think?
How can you not agree with it lol. They big ten thought they knew best, wasn't even going to try, and that they ran shit. Well three p5 conferences and other non p5 conferences said thanks but no thanks lol and actually are making it work. Pop Warner all the way to the NFL we're going to play. I feel for the PAC 10 who actually tied their boat to the big ten for whatever reason.
Wrestling is going to happen. There's no reason not for it to.
Somehow nick saban was negative in like three days lol.
Even if the whole room gets it you're out a week maybe two. Game on
 
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... I never really understood what people feel these face-shields are preventing, even though you see lots of medical workers relying on them ...


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In PA, all high school refs have to attend a Rules Interpretation meeting before the start of each season. Those meetings review the rule changes for the year, and also address new issues. The meetings for wrestling refs are starting to take place across the Commonwealth. From the one I attended (virtually), and reports I've heard from others, it's surprising how much uncertainty there is about wrestling for this season.

On a competition level, there is still a lot of uncertainty. As with the fall sports, each school, and each league, is making independent decisions. I know of a league that has decided they are only have league duals -- no non-league duals. That same league has decided that their middle schools will not be having teams this season. Other leagues in the same area appear to be leaning toward just in-league duals, and most of them are not starting their season until after Jan. 1. As for youth wrestling, it still appears that it will be canceled this winter in this region.

For refs, the key take-aways are: be flexible, expect fewer assignments, and stay safe. in PA, high schools are required to provide a changing room which includes a shower for refs. (Those requirements don't apply to all fall sports, but the PIAA granted each school the ability to suspend those rules for sports to which they did apply in the fall.) It appears likely that many schools will be suspending that rule for the winter sports, which could be a PITA for wrestling refs, as both your clothes and your skin is all over the mat, and most refs want to get the clothes off, and take a shower, ASAP at the end of the match even when there isn't a coronavirus pandemic.

The National Federation of State High School Associations has provided some interpretations on the NFHS rules (rules that cover all high school wresting, except for prep schools) that:

1. refs can wear gloves, or long sleeve jerseys
2. refs can use electronic whistles, or a whistle cover

There is a belief (nothing in writing yet) that wrestlers will be instructed to not shake hands before a match, and that refs will not be required to raise the hand of the winning wrestler. There are also rumors that weigh ins may be totally changed, with one team weighing in in one room, and the other team weighing in in another room, or both teams weighing in in the same room, but separately. Again, these details still seem to be in flux, with leagues and schools trying to come up with protocols with which they are comfortable.

Should be a season like nothing we've ever seen -- assuming they are able to even execute that what they are leaning toward. As for me, I'm pretty sure I'm going to opt out of reffing for this season.
 
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I do not necessarily believe that is true. I know a husband that got it but wife and kids did not. I won't be graphic about painting any pictures, but I know if my wife got something as contagious as you state I sure would get it.

So you're messing around with the mailman too, eh? 😱🤣
 
Good grief. I gave you the specific rule, and the specific text of the rule, that specifies that the ref must raise the hand of the winning wrestler in high school (which also carries over to middle school and to youth, as they follow the same rules except for weight classes and time of periods).

Whether the NFHS elects to change the rule, or whether the PIAA (or other state sports organizations) elects to give an exception to the rule for this season, remains to be seen. The later is the more likely scenario if a change is made, as the NFHS process to change rules is very drawn out, and mostly is completed at the end of the prior season.

The process of raising the hand of the winning wrestler is not a tradition in high school. It is specified in the rules. As such, the ref does not have the option of "announcing the winner" and pointing to him. In addition, "a little red or green flag" is not in the rules as permitted to be worn or used by the ref, so despite your claim that it could be used, any ref that did so would be breaking two different rules (as they currently stand), and wouldn't get assigned to many matches once word got out of them using that technique.

Come on Tom - there are so many”rules” and traditions that have been “adjusted” without re-writing regulations since COVID-19 was released. Not raising the hand of the winner would not be an issue.
 
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In a dead heat that might require a recount, I am trying to decide if this debate or the “pass out Halloween candy via plastic tube” is the dumbest position of panic porn yet.

waiting for the “McDonald’s installing playground slides to hand out hamburgers” and “UFC to award championship via shadow boxing” to overtake both.
 
Can’t the ref just use hand sanitizer between matches? WTF are we doing to our kids?
 
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