With the Benefit of Hindsight - Ziegler's new documentary podcast on scandal to start in 2021

LundyPSU

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Ziegler claims to have taped 55-60 hours of new material. He has said he interviewed Aaron Fisher's ex-wife. I know he has also interviewed John Snedden. I suspect that he included new interviews with the likes of Mark Pendergrast, Malcolm Gladwell, Fred Crews, Anthony Lubrano, Dick Anderson, Jeff Byers, Franco Harris, and others who have first-hand knowledge of the story. Ziegler has said that the podcast will enable him to share a lot of new information that he has collected over the years. He has said in the past that one of the best interviews that he has done was with Gary Schultz who explained why he was convinced that Sandusky was innocent. I wouldn't be surprised if Gary is included prominently in the podcast. Ziegler has stated that he has interviewed over a dozen people who know Aaron Fisher the best and they all believe that Aaron has been less than truthful in his recounting of what has happened. I suspect that Aaron will have a key role in the podcast. I suspect that people who know Glen Neff and Matt Sandusky well will be featured in the podcast as well. Ziegler's co-host is a Los Angeles TV personality, so I believe that most or all of the segments will be new. I don't know if there will be any bombshells, but I suspect it will be very interesting. I am looking forward to the initial podcast.
A Schultz interview could be interesting. The rest seems like the same old stuff.
 
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francofan

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LaVar Arrington has some nice things to say about Jerry Sandusky. He made a instagram video after Marty Schotteheimer's death concerning the coaches over the years that had the largest influences on him as a football player.

Starting at the 1:45 mark, LaVar states "In college, I know it might sound crazy, but Jerry Sandusky was my person. He understood me. He understood what my talents were and he really, really did an amazing job of allowing me to grow and be who I was as a player."

 
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PSU2UNC

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LaVar Arrington has some nice things to say about Jerry Sandusky. He made a instragram video after Marty Schotteheimer's death concerning the coaches over the years that had the largest influences on him as a football player.

Starting at the 1:45 mark, LaVar states "In college, I know it might sound crazy, but Jerry Sandusky was my person. He understood me. He understood what my talents were and he really, really did an amazing job of allowing me to grow and be who I was as a player."

Thanks for sharing this. I am not on "the gram" (as the kids call it) so maybe this is a dumb question, but did people comment on this statement? I'm friends with another linebacker who was coached by JS around the same time as Lavar who had nothing but complimentary things to say about the coach.
 

bdgan

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A lot of new information has come out. Most recently the McChesney diary has been discovered that demonstrates that the OAG and the Freeh Group colluded, that the OAG had leaked grand jury information to the Freeh Group, and that juror tampering had occured.

Another key piece of information that has come out is that lead prosecutor Frank Fina has been sanctioned in the form of losing his license to practice law in the state of Pennsylvania for a year and a day on account of his conduct in the case.

In addition, the report on the federal investigation that was conducted by NCIS special agent John Snedden to consider whether Graham Spanier's top-level security clearance should be renewed was discovered in the form of a 110 page redacted document, The report concluded that Mike McQueary was not a credible witness and that there was little, if any, evidence of any sexual assault.

Another key piece of information that has come out is that the infamous Mike McQueary shower incident occurred on Dec. 29, 2000 and not on Feb, 9, 2001 as stated at trial or on March 1, 2002 as stated in the grand jury presentment.

In addition, an email that Mike McQueary sent to Jonelle Eschbach right after the Nov. 2011 grand jury presentment came out where McQueary complained to Eschbach that she twisted his words in the GJP when she claimed he had witnessed an anal rape.

There is much more information that has come out. I refer you to Mark Pendergrast's book "The Most Hated Man in America: Jerry Sandusky and the Rush to Judgment" and the Penn State chapter in Malcolm Gladwell's book "Talking to Strangers."

None of that is new.

BTW, regardless of what you think of Fina he said that he saw no evidence that Paterno was involved in a coverup.

“I do not,” Fina said straight up when asked if Paterno participated in a coverup.
“And I’m viewing this strictly on the evidence, not any kind of fealty to anybody. I did not find that evidence.”
 
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BBrown

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A lot of new information has come out. Most recently the McChesney diary has been discovered that demonstrates that the OAG and the Freeh Group colluded, that the OAG had leaked grand jury information to the Freeh Group, and that juror tampering had occured.

Another key piece of information that has come out is that lead prosecutor Frank Fina has been sanctioned in the form of losing his license to practice law in the state of Pennsylvania for a year and a day on account of his conduct in the case.

In addition, the report on the federal investigation that was conducted by NCIS special agent John Snedden to consider whether Graham Spanier's top-level security clearance should be renewed was discovered in the form of a 110 page redacted document, The report concluded that Mike McQueary was not a credible witness and that there was little, if any, evidence of any sexual assault.

Another key piece of information that has come out is that the infamous Mike McQueary shower incident occurred on Dec. 29, 2000 and not on Feb, 9, 2001 as stated at trial or on March 1, 2002 as stated in the grand jury presentment.

In addition, an email that Mike McQueary sent to Jonelle Eschbach right after the Nov. 2011 grand jury presentment came out where McQueary complained to Eschbach that she twisted his words in the GJP when she claimed he had witnessed an anal rape.

There is much more information that has come out. I refer you to Mark Pendergrast's book "The Most Hated Man in America: Jerry Sandusky and the Rush to Judgment" and the Penn State chapter in Malcolm Gladwell's book "Talking to Strangers."

None of that is really new though is it? I gave up following this case a while ago and I remember the stuff about Fina being sanctioned and the Date of the shower incident has ALWAYS been in question, from the start, IIRC.
Same with the email to Eschabach.
Just doesn't seem like anything "new" to me.🤷‍♂️
 

bdgan

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For people who shower with boys? No, I don’t.
Everybody deserves due process. Otherwise people can be falsely accused and not be given an opportunity to defend themselves. I can't believe you're OK with that.

FWIW it used to be common for adults to go into communal showers with kids. My high school coach showered with us. My wife tells me that her phys ed teacher made the girls open their towels and expose themselves to prove they were wet and actually showered. That doesn't mean I support sexual assault. I'm just saying that it wasn't uncommon a few decades ago and it doesn't mean that sexual assault was occuring.
 
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francofan

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Thanks for sharing this. I am not on "the gram" (as the kids call it) so maybe this is a dumb question, but did people comment on this statement? I'm friends with another linebacker who was coached by JS around the same time as Lavar who had nothing but complimentary things to say about the coach.

LaVar’s video has 1326 views with 226 likes and 37 comments. LaVar responded to a lot of the comments. There was only 1 comment that referenced his Sandusky statement:

josmuns

Lavar I respect you showing love to Jerry Sandusky. Many people who are familiar with the actual facts of the so-called PSU scandal know him to be 100% innocent. Are you of the same understating?

Lavar did not respond to josmuns comment.
 
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ThePennsyOracle

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Everybody deserves due process. Otherwise people can be falsely accused and not be given an opportunity to defend themselves. I can't believe you're OK with that.

FWIW it used to be common for adults to go into communal showers with kids. My high school coach showered with us. My wife tells me that her phys ed teacher made the girls open their towels and expose themselves to prove they were wet and actually showered. That doesn't mean I support sexual assault. I'm just saying that it wasn't uncommon a few decades ago.

There was also a time when it was legal to own another human being.

If someone was showering with boys in the 1990s, they deserve to be Uncle Jerry's cellmate.
 
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BBrown

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Everybody deserves due process. Otherwise people can be falsely accused and not be given an opportunity to defend themselves. I can't believe you're OK with that.

FWIW it used to be common for adults to go into communal showers with kids. My high school coach showered with us. My wife tells me that her phys ed teacher made the girls open their towels and expose themselves to prove they were wet and actually showered. That doesn't mean I support sexual assault. I'm just saying that it wasn't uncommon a few decades ago.

+1.
Our 7th and 8th grade Gym Teacher showered with us, circa 76-77.
 

francofan

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None of that is really new though is it? I gave up following this case a while ago and I remember the stuff about Fina being sanctioned and the Date of the shower incident has ALWAYS been in question, from the start, IIRC.
Same with the email to Eschabach.
Just doesn't seem like anything "new" to me.🤷‍♂️

I should have been more articulate in my statement regarding new developments. I was referring to developments that have come out since Sandusky's trial.

I believe that the original trial was patently unfair. If there is ever a re-trial, I believe that based on new information that has come out since the trial that there would be more than reasonable doubt in Sandusky's guilt.

I do not know the material that Ziegler is planning on using in the podcast, but it should be good. I don't know if it will move public opinion significantly, but it certainly won't hurt.
 

BBrown

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I should have been more articulate in my statement regarding new developments. I was referring to developments that have come out since Sandusky's trial.

I believe that the original trial was patently unfair. If there is ever a re-trial, I believe that based on new information that has come out since the trial that there would be more than reasonable doubt in Sandusky's guilt.

I do not know the material that Ziegler is planning on using in the podcast, but it should be good. I don't know if it will move public opinion significantly, but it certainly won't hurt.

Ok.
But allow me to answer your last question...
It won't move it at all.
 
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Connorpozlee

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+1.
Our 7th and 8th grade Gym Teacher showered with us, circa 76-77.
Alone, under the same shower head with him initiating contact with you? After being investigated by police and agreeing to never do that again? Showering with the gym teacher/coach and classmates/teammates and what Jerry has even admitted to doing are vastly different things.
 
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PSU2UNC

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Alone, under the same shower head with him initiating contact with you? After being investigated by police and agreeing to never do that again? Showering with the gym teacher/coach and classmates/teammates and what Jerry has even admitted to doing are vastly different things.
Different does not mean illegal.

Inappropriate does not mean illegal.

There have been some (many?) who have argued that just the act of showering makes him guilty. I believe, as we have discussed here in the past, that is not correct.
 

BBrown

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Alone, under the same shower head with him initiating contact with you? After being investigated by police and agreeing to never do that again? Showering with the gym teacher/coach and classmates/teammates and what Jerry has even admitted to doing are vastly different things.

Hmmm let me go back and re-read what I wrote...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Nope didn't say that but nice try...well not really.:rolleyes:
 

Connorpozlee

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Hmmm let me go back and re-read what I wrote...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Nope didn't say that but nice try...well not really.:rolleyes:
I know you didn’t say that, that was the point.
 

Connorpozlee

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Different does not mean illegal.

Inappropriate does not mean illegal.

There have been some (many?) who have argued that just the act of showering makes him guilty. I believe, as we have discussed here in the past, that is not correct.
You’ve never seen me say that, though. I just find it disingenuous when people use showering in the same group shower with their coaches/gym teachers as comparable to what we know Sandusky was doing (I’m not saying that is what bbrown was doing here as I don’t think that’s his MO).
 
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francofan

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You’ve never seen me say that, though. I just find it disingenuous when people use showering in the same group shower with their coaches/gym teachers as comparable to what we know Sandusky was doing (I’m not saying that is what bbrown was doing here as I don’t think that’s his MO).

What do you know Sandusky was doing in the shower? Allan Myers, the boy in the infamous 2000/2001 shower incident with Sandusky in the Lasch locker room that Mike McQueary witnessed, has repeatedly and emphatically denied that Jerry Sandusky ever sexually abused him.

 

Connorpozlee

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What do you know Sandusky was doing in the shower? Allan Myers, the boy in the infamous 2000/2001 shower incident with Sandusky in the Lasch locker room that Mike McQueary witnessed, has repeatedly and emphatically denied that Jerry Sandusky ever sexually abused him.


“Some of these kids don’t have basic hygiene skills,” Rominger said. “Teaching a person to shower at the age of 12 or 14 sounds strange to some people, but people who work with troubled youth will tell you there are a lot of juvenile delinquents and people who are dependent who have to be taught basic life skills like how to put soap on their body.” That quote was taken from the NY Post on December 15, 2011.

12-14 year olds don’t need somebody to show them how to put soap on their bodies. And if they do, I don’t know of one person in the field of working with troubled youth who would ever physically do it for them, let alone in a shower alone with them.
 

Ian

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Can the cancel culture cancel the Sandusky scandal? After almost ten years what hasn’t been said.... and where is Ray Gricar anyway?
 

PSU2UNC

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You’ve never seen me say that, though. I just find it disingenuous when people use showering in the same group shower with their coaches/gym teachers as comparable to what we know Sandusky was doing (I’m not saying that is what bbrown was doing here as I don’t think that’s his MO).
They were showering in a group shower. Some people (not you) find that fact alone enough to convict Sandusky. That is (IMHO) ludicrous. And that being ludicrous doesn't mean that it was appropriate behavior (it was not).

Similarly, horseplay in the shower is also (highly) inappropriate. That also doesn't necessarily make it child abuse.
 
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Connorpozlee

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They were showering in a group shower. Some people (not you) find that fact alone enough to convict Sandusky. That is (IMHO) ludicrous. And that being ludicrous doesn't mean that it was appropriate behavior (it was not).

Similarly, horseplay in the shower is also (highly) inappropriate. That also doesn't necessarily make it child abuse.
Yeah, I agree with this unc. Let’s be honest and call it what it is, not make believe it was something less than what is was.
Am I right that would you work in a therapeutic setting, or so I have you confused with somebody else? If so, the showering activity alone would send up some major red flags for you, wouldn’t it?
 

bdgan

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You’ve never seen me say that, though. I just find it disingenuous when people use showering in the same group shower with their coaches/gym teachers as comparable to what we know Sandusky was doing

I think you miss the point. The point is that not too long ago it was common for young people to shower with adults. It's quite possible that administrators weren't as alarmed hearing about this than you were.

FWIW I don't thing Sandusky was completely innocent. He should have been scared to death about what happened in 1998. If somebody reported me to police I would have been rattled and I would have been extra cautious going forward. The fact that Sandusky repeated this behavior tells me that he had boundary issues. I don't know what to make of many of the claims against him. Lawyers hiring repressed memory specialists and $millions can encourage poor people to exaggerate their claims.
 

Connorpozlee

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I think you miss the point. The point is that not too long ago it was common for young people to shower with adults. It's quite possible that administrators weren't as alarmed hearing about this than you were.

FWIW I don't thing Sandusky was completely innocent. He should have been scared to death about what happened in 1998. If somebody reported me to police I would have been rattled and I would have been extra cautious going forward. The fact that Sandusky repeated this behavior tells me that he had boundary issues. I don't know what to make of many of the claims against him. Lawyers hiring repressed memory specialists and $millions can encourage poor people to exaggerate their claims.
What point do you think I miss? If it’s that people of varying ages share group showers, then I haven’t missed that.
 

PSU2UNC

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Yeah, I agree with this unc. Let’s be honest and call it what it is, not make believe it was something less than what is was.
Am I right that would you work in a therapeutic setting, or so I have you confused with somebody else? If so, the showering activity alone would send up some major red flags for you, wouldn’t it?
You are confusing me with someone else, but appreciate your well reasoned response with the addendum "let's not make it MORE than what it was" either.
 

Connorpozlee

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You are confusing me with someone else, but appreciate your well reasoned response with the addendum "let's not make it MORE than what it was" either.
Ahhhh..... my bad.
Right, let’s call it what it was and take mindful consideration of what it was.
 

PSU2UNC

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Ahhhh..... my bad.
Right, let’s call it what it was and take mindful consideration of what it was.
Completely agree. A lot of folks don't do that however. If you start from a place "OMG, they *showered* together?!?!?!?!" (again not saying you do this) it's tough to critically examine what actually happened, what the context is for that and what it means from a legal perspective.
 

bdgan

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Yeah, I agree with this unc. Let’s be honest and call it what it is, not make believe it was something less than what is was.
Am I right that would you work in a therapeutic setting, or so I have you confused with somebody else? If so, the showering activity alone would send up some major red flags for you, wouldn’t it?
Everything seems black and white to you. You seem to think that JS was clearly a pedophile and the signs were obvious. Do you also think that TSM, Curley, Shultz, Spanier, Joe, McQueary Sr, Dranov, players, and coaches all turned a blind eye to the obvious?


The bigger question to me is why would TSM allow Sandusky or anybody else to interact with troubled kids one on one? Also, why did Central Mountain High School allow Sandusky to take kids from their school? It has nothing to do with suspecting JS to be a pedophile. It has to do with protecting your organization from liability.
 

Connorpozlee

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Everything seems black and white to you. You seem to think that JS was clearly a pedophile and the signs were obvious. Do you also think that TSM, Curley, Shultz, Spanier, Joe, McQueary Sr, Dranov, players, and coaches all turned a blind eye to the obvious?


The bigger question to me is why would TSM allow Sandusky or anybody else to interact with troubled kids one on one? Also, why did Central Mountain High School allow Sandusky to take kids from their school? It has nothing to do with suspecting JS to be a pedophile. It has to do with protecting your organization from liability.
I think you might be mistaking me for somebody else but let me clarify for you.
What I do think is black and white is this: Grown men do not shower alone with boys and have physical contact with them when doing so. Never, and certainly not after agreeing with police to not do after bei. Investigated once previously. They just don’t. Does that prove that he is a pedophile? Nope. Should it give any reasonable person reason to think that he probably is a pedophile? Yep, but it’s not proof.
 

Connorpozlee

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Completely agree. A lot of folks don't do that however. If you start from a place "OMG, they *showered* together?!?!?!?!" (again not saying you do this) it's tough to critically examine what actually happened, what the context is for that and what it means from a legal perspective.
Right, the idea that boys and men share a group shower together is not such an alarming thing. The fact that it’s alone and involves physical contact is extremely alarming.
 
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Connorpozlee

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I'll tell you one thing that hasn't been said! The Pennsylvania State University has still not apologized to the Paterno family.
They’ve certainly kept to plan of just waiting it out until the vast, vast majority don't care anymore.
 
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