With Berge retired, who do you think goes at 157 and 165 next year?

STAND with PRIDE

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I definitely disagree with this. If Bartlett wins, he wins. You can make it 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 or something to make sure it's not one fluky result, but if a guy earns a spot in the room, you have to let him have it. Only if he wins and then struggles "against the field" do you consider replacing him with a guy who he beat in a wrestle-off.
Cael makes no promises and picks starters,we’ve went over this.
We either trust him or we dont, but thats the way it is.
 
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raslen007

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Feb 19, 2012
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I had a Vision......it was titled "Best Lineup" ie. #1______ ^^ ( I dream in Dingbat Font ) As best as I can figure it was:

125 Howard
133 RBY
141 N. Lee
149 Van Ness
157 Choose from the following: J. Lee, M. Lee, Barraclough, Boone, Transfer, Gardner, Verk (Just checking)
165 Facundo
174 Starocci
184 Brooks
197 Beard
285 Kerkvilet

Let the bullets fly :)
Wow, what a way to end a dual with those 4.
 
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pawrestlersintn

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with the eye test do we have pictures of their dads , grandpa...maybe from tweets? Insta, myspace, FB, something that a mom at a wrestling match might have taken???? something has to be out there!

maybe their cousins little moe with the gimpy leg, Cheecks, boney Bob, cliff.....This is where I think real data can be taken from in this exercise
So, you were KK all along. Sneaky.
 

js8793

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Dec 4, 2018
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I definitely disagree with this. If Bartlett wins, he wins. You can make it 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 or something to make sure it's not one fluky result, but if a guy earns a spot in the room, you have to let him have it. Only if he wins and then struggles "against the field" do you consider replacing him with a guy who he beat in a wrestle-off.
The guy who beats the field goes because that's what actually matters. Who cares if you can beat your teammate if he's the guy who scores the most points for the team? We see high profile guys lose wrestle offs frequently and still be the guy. For example, Tyler Clark over Ramos, Paddock over Hunter Steiber, Assad over Wilcke/Brands, etc... Johnny Thompson lost wrestle offs as a returning champ.

Wrestle offs usually only determine the spot if they're similar against the field. If one guy is clearly better against the field, it would be stupid not to wrestle him. You can talk about the ethics of the sport and so on, but ultimately a coach has a greater responsibility to the team than they do to any individual wrestler.
 

midniteride

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The guy who beats the field goes because that's what actually matters. Who cares if you can beat your teammate if he's the guy who scores the most points for the team? We see high profile guys lose wrestle offs frequently and still be the guy. For example, Tyler Clark over Ramos, Paddock over Hunter Steiber, Assad over Wilcke/Brands, etc... Johnny Thompson lost wrestle offs as a returning champ.

Wrestle offs usually only determine the spot if they're similar against the field. If one guy is clearly better against the field, it would be stupid not to wrestle him. You can talk about the ethics of the sport and so on, but ultimately a coach has a greater responsibility to the team than they do to any individual wrestler.
I hate to bring stupid into the equation but how did it take so long for Rutgers to realize that Turley should be in the lineup.?
 

District four

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Feb 16, 2018
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I think you have to go by common competition. I have a hard time seeing Bartlett produce at 149 ever due to his size, but I could see him beating SVN due to familiarity. Bartlett has historically owned that match up if I'm remembering right. I would pick Bartlett in the wrestle off, but SVN against the field, and the winner against the field should always go.

Another short season could take that away though. I think that's what happened at 184 for the hawks this year. I think Assad is much better against the field than Brands is, but got beat pretty bad head to head.
I like the way you think. Logic wins the day lol try that shit on hr lmfao.
 

Petch

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with the eye test do we have pictures of their dads , grandpa...maybe from tweets? Insta, myspace, FB, something that a mom at a wrestling match might have taken???? something has to be out there!

maybe their cousins little moe with the gimpy leg, Cheecks, boney Bob, cliff.....This is where I think real data can be taken from in this exercise
Nice Home Alone 2 reference. Hahahaha!
 

js8793

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I hate to bring stupid into the equation but how did it take so long for Rutgers to realize that Turley should be in the lineup.?
This is hindsight bias. He was not good this year until NCAAs and was lucky to get in as a wildcard. Opening his season with a loss in an exhibition to Michigan's back up didn't get things rolling for him. They only had 4 duals all year too, so it's not like he spent a ton of time on the bench. Grello was a returning qualifier with some career wins. He was 0-2 in the first two duals, but the losses were to Massa and Romero. Then Turley got his shot and ran with it. Seems like they did a fine job to me.

Honestly, Cael leaving Bartlett on the bench at 141 as long as he did was worse. Basically cost himself an extra qualifier because I think Bartlett gets that wildcard with 2 more matches at 149. I'm sure he would like that one back.
 

lookleft goright

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Jan 21, 2012
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with the eye test do we have pictures of their dads , grandpa...maybe from tweets? Insta, myspace, FB, something that a mom at a wrestling match might have taken???? something has to be out there!

maybe their cousins little moe with the gimpy leg, Cheecks, boney Bob, cliff.....This is where I think real data can be taken from in this exercise
If we are going to start asking for pics of grandpas, dads, and physically impaired relatives, I am heading back to the cesspool. Pics have one purpose and one purpose only on a wrestling message board and if I need to explain that to you guys - we in a heap a trouble!!!
I understand the desire to keep it classy, but come on. :)
 
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KidDagger

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Nov 7, 2014
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I hate to bring stupid into the equation but how did it take so long for Rutgers to realize that Turley should be in the lineup.?
I have pondered this myself... I think the fact that Grello had seniority, made the round of 16s before, and solid qualifier type made it harder to pull the trigger to switch to Turley sooner.
 
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pointingdogsrule

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Jan 26, 2014
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I had a Vision......it was titled "Best Lineup" ie. #1______ ^^ ( I dream in Dingbat Font ) As best as I can figure it was:

125 Howard
133 RBY
141 N. Lee
149 Van Ness
157 Choose from the following: J. Lee, M. Lee, Barraclough, Boone, Transfer, Gardner, Verk (Just checking)
165 Facundo
174 Starocci
184 Brooks
197 Beard
285 Kerkvilet

Let the bullets fly :)
Calling 82bordeaux.... I had a vision from the movie,,"Waterworld".
 

creamery freak

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I think you have to go by common competition. I have a hard time seeing Bartlett produce at 149 ever due to his size, but I could see him beating SVN due to familiarity. Bartlett has historically owned that match up if I'm remembering right. I would pick Bartlett in the wrestle off, but SVN against the field, and the winner against the field should always go.

Another short season could take that away though. I think that's what happened at 184 for the hawks this year. I think Assad is much better against the field than Brands is, but got beat pretty bad head to head.
Not only beat pretty bad head to head, Brands chewed him up and spit him out. ;)
 

82bordeaux

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Calling 82bordeaux.... I had a vision from the movie,,"Waterworld".

Whuuuttt???​

giphy.gif
 

jack66

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The bottom line, we scored 4.5 points at 125+149+157+165.

Once these young kids get a full season under their belt, whoever wins those spots should increase that number significantly.

The way I see it, even without a transfer or two, Iowa and PSU go into next season dead even ... I like our upside better.
 

raslen007

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Feb 19, 2012
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If we are going to start asking for pics of grandpas, dads, and physically impaired relatives, I am heading back to the cesspool. Pics have one purpose and one purpose only on a wrestling message board and if I need to explain that to you guys - we in a heap a trouble!!!
I understand the desire to keep it classy, but come on. :)
Pics of wives, girl friends, significant others & X's always welcome.
 

KidDagger

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Nov 7, 2014
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The bottom line, we scored 4.5 points at 125+149+157+165.

Once these young kids get a full season under their belt, whoever wins those spots should increase that number significantly.

The way I see it, even without a transfer or two, Iowa and PSU go into next season dead even ... I like our upside better.
With SVN and Facundo coming in yea there’s plenty of upside in those weights..

I actually think 125 might be the toughest to improve on upon.. there are a lot of tough guys returning, about 20 that can legit AA, then u throw in sure fire hammers like Vito and Glory And this is very stacked weight.
 

js8793

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Dec 4, 2018
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The bottom line, we scored 4.5 points at 125+149+157+165.

Once these young kids get a full season under their belt, whoever wins those spots should increase that number significantly.

The way I see it, even without a transfer or two, Iowa and PSU go into next season dead even ... I like our upside better.
This is very true, but Iowa also left quite a few points on the board, namely only getting 4 points out of a number 1 seed at 165. Marinelli winning next year alone could almost offset all 4 of those weights being mid to low AAs. Then you have a guy like Murin who only scored 1 point (after the deduction) who was in the quarters and lost 2 OT matches. He could place next year. They only got 1 point out of 184 and Assad has wins over the 3rd and 4th place finishers at that weight this year.

For a returning champion, Iowa has a ton of room to improve. Going to be a dynamite team race.
 

js8793

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With SVN and Facundo coming in yea there’s plenty of upside in those weights..

I actually think 125 might be the toughest to improve on upon.. there are a lot of tough guys returning, about 20 that can legit AA, then u throw in sure fire hammers like Vito and Glory And this is very stacked weight.
Very true. Howard could show solid improvement, but not significantly increase his score. It's a very deep weight with a lot of parity.

I was under the impression that Facundo was taking a grey shirt?
 

McScoreley

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Very true. Howard could show solid improvement, but not significantly increase his score. It's a very deep weight with a lot of parity.

I was under the impression that Facundo was taking a grey shirt?

I feel 125 could have been wrestled 10 different times and the only thing that stays the same is Spencer is 1st. Howard was right there with Lamont (granted it was purely a tieup match) Similar to Kerkvliet, he got a very late start to the season and was coming off surgery. Talent is obviously there so we shall see how much he improves next year.

Facundo is coming to Penn State in June, straight out of the horse's mouth. I suspect he'll be redshirted through the Scuffle at least.
 
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js8793

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I feel 125 could have been wrestled 10 different times and the only thing that stays the same is Spencer is 1st. Howard was right there with Lamont (granted it was purely a tieup match) Similar to Kerkvliet, he got a very late start to the season and was coming off surgery. Talent is obviously there so we shall see how much he improves next year.

Facundo is coming to Penn State in June, straight out of the horse's mouth. I suspect he'll be redshirted through the Scuffle at least.
I feel similarly about 149 this year. Murin could have been as high as 3rd, but lost two OT matches. Pretty much everybody from 3-15 at that weight could beat each other. Same thing with Howard. I think he can beat a bunch of guys who outplaced him.
 

jack66

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This is very true, but Iowa also left quite a few points on the board, namely only getting 4 points out of a number 1 seed at 165. Marinelli winning next year alone could almost offset all 4 of those weights being mid to low AAs. Then you have a guy like Murin who only scored 1 point (after the deduction) who was in the quarters and lost 2 OT matches. He could place next year. They only got 1 point out of 184 and Assad has wins over the 3rd and 4th place finishers at that weight this year.

For a returning champion, Iowa has a ton of room to improve. Going to be a dynamite team race.

I agree about Marinelli, I wouldn't expect him to go out after the quarters again. Murin though has been in the line-up now for 3 years and has yet to score more than 2 points. You point out 2 OT losses, but no mention of a 1 pt win over Rooks in round 1, nor his 0-3 record at Big Tens capped with a 7-2 loss to VanBrill. Count me unimpressed.

Basically, we are looking at a bunch of Fr who have only a truncated season under their belt, they have a lot to gain through experience. By comparison, Iowa has 8 wrestlers with at least 3 years of varsity wrestling. I just think the Hawks are closer to their ceiling.

But, yeah, you're bringing back the same line-up for the 3rd year in a row. At least you know what you've got.
 
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js8793

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I agree about Marinelli, I wouldn't expect him to go out after the quarters again. Murin though has been in the line-up now for 3 years and has yet to score more than 2 points. You point out 2 OT losses, but no mention of a 1 pt win over Rooks in round 1, nor his 0-3 record at Big Tens capped with a 7-2 loss to VanBrill. Count me unimpressed.

Basically, we are looking at a bunch of Fr who have only a truncated season under their belt, they have a lot to gain through experience. By comparison, Iowa has 8 wrestlers with at least 3 years of varsity wrestling. I just think the Hawks are closer to their ceiling.

But, yeah, you're bringing back the same line-up for the 3rd year in a row. At least you know what you've got.
I'm not going to push back that hard on Murin. I think he's a 50/50 shot to place. My larger point is that 149 is deep and they all beat each other. Murin has shown he's in the mix to place. He's never finished below R12.

The hawks are closer to their ceiling in terms of overall improvement, but they didn't even approach their ceiling this last year. It was a somewhat disastrous tournament, but they were so deep it didn't matter. They survived Spencer tearing his ACL and not producing his usual bonus and Marinelli breaking his rib in the quarters and defaulting out. 20 points right there. And they got 2 points out of 149 and 184 total and have guys at both weights who have a legitimate ceiling of mid-AA in Murin and Assad.

We're basically two OT coinflip finals matches from the hawks winning by 30 and being overwhelming favorites again next year. While I expect PSU to close the gap and have a great shot of winning, the crazy finals performance somewhat obscured the gap between the two teams this past year. PSU had an incredible finals session, going 4-0 with 3 underdogs, and it only got them to within 15.

Looking forward to discussing this over the next year. I'm hoping we get a full season with fans. The dual next year will be crazy.
 

jack66

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I'm not going to push back that hard on Murin. I think he's a 50/50 shot to place. My larger point is that 149 is deep and they all beat each other. Murin has shown he's in the mix to place. He's never finished below R12.

The hawks are closer to their ceiling in terms of overall improvement, but they didn't even approach their ceiling this last year. It was a somewhat disastrous tournament, but they were so deep it didn't matter. They survived Spencer tearing his ACL and not producing his usual bonus and Marinelli breaking his rib in the quarters and defaulting out. 20 points right there. And they got 2 points out of 149 and 184 total and have guys at both weights who have a legitimate ceiling of mid-AA in Murin and Assad.

We're basically two OT coinflip finals matches from the hawks winning by 30 and being overwhelming favorites again next year. While I expect PSU to close the gap and have a great shot of winning, the crazy finals performance somewhat obscured the gap between the two teams this past year. PSU had an incredible finals session, going 4-0 with 3 underdogs, and it only got them to within 15.

Looking forward to discussing this over the next year. I'm hoping we get a full season with fans. The dual next year will be crazy.

Okay, point taken.

I'm actually getting more excited now that I know we can pick and choose which results we want.

Howard lost by one point to #5 Lamont, Bartlett lost by 2 to 2nd place Sasso and in OT to 3rd place Thomas, Joe Lee owns wins over 2nd place Wentzel and 6th place Hartman. Beard lost in OT to 3rd place Amine and Kerk just gained revenge over 2nd place Parris.

Wow, a little seasoning, and I can see another 40-50 points from those 5 weights. :)
 
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js8793

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Okay, point taken.

I'm actually getting more excited now that I know we can pick and choose which results we want.

Howard lost by one point to #5 Lamont, Bartlett lost by 2 to 2nd place Sasso and in OT to 3rd place Thomas, Joe Lee owns wins over 2nd place Wentzel and 6th place Hartman. Beard lost in OT to 3rd place Amine and Kerk just gained revenge over 2nd place Parris.

Wow, a little seasoning, and I can see another 40-50 points from those 5 weights. :)
Oh definitely! That's why I think it's going to be a crazy race. I've just seen a lot of people talking as if Iowa maxed out with this year's performance when they actually survived some big let downs. PSU isn't the only team that can score significantly more points next year.
 

GogglesPaizano

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Feb 6, 2018
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Nick > Beau @ 141
Nick > SVN & Beau @ 149
Beau & SVN probably to close to call at 149, Beau has experience advantage but size disadvantage

Net-Net Nick goes where he wants. I say 90% chance of 141 granted 149 is not totally insane, but little to be gained.

I suspect, given what we saw of Beau's initial desire to compete for 141 this year, he will not want to redshirt just IMO, he is competitively wound pretty tight and had a defacto RS already. He will go next year, so he and SVN will go at it for 149 unless SVN is ok with a shirt.

141 = Nick
149 = Beau vs SVN very slight edge Beau
157 = Barraclough
165 = Joe vs Facundo edge Joe

I am OK with the above. Coud Cael twist Grifith's mind into a knot during his summer visit. Yes, but sadly I think that ship had sailed.
 

McScoreley

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Feb 24, 2019
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I'm not going to push back that hard on Murin. I think he's a 50/50 shot to place. My larger point is that 149 is deep and they all beat each other. Murin has shown he's in the mix to place. He's never finished below R12.

The hawks are closer to their ceiling in terms of overall improvement, but they didn't even approach their ceiling this last year. It was a somewhat disastrous tournament, but they were so deep it didn't matter. They survived Spencer tearing his ACL and not producing his usual bonus and Marinelli breaking his rib in the quarters and defaulting out. 20 points right there. And they got 2 points out of 149 and 184 total and have guys at both weights who have a legitimate ceiling of mid-AA in Murin and Assad.

We're basically two OT coinflip finals matches from the hawks winning by 30 and being overwhelming favorites again next year. While I expect PSU to close the gap and have a great shot of winning, the crazy finals performance somewhat obscured the gap between the two teams this past year. PSU had an incredible finals session, going 4-0 with 3 underdogs, and it only got them to within 15.

Looking forward to discussing this over the next year. I'm hoping we get a full season with fans. The dual next year will be crazy.
All due respect because I do actually like your analysis and find you really knowledgable but 20 points for the Bull and Spencer scenario is extremely generous. Bull winning out from the Blood Round would get him 11.5 points assuming no bonus. He would have Cameron Amine, Wittlake, Ethan Smith then O'Toole (assuming brackets played out the same) I didn't see anything from Bull this year that indicates he would bonus any of them and all due respect to Bull, his track record in the consolation bracket leads me to think it's not a given he gets all the way back to 3rd (I saw Wittlake as a potential trap similar to Marsteller in 2019) Spencer pinning out nationals would be 5.5 points more from what he got. That's also a perfect scenario for Spencer. The truth is you guys didn't have that disastrous of a tournament. You didn't have a perfect one but that almost never happens. It actually reminds me somewhat of PSU's 2019 tournament. Felt deflating but we still won by 40.

You're not wrong that Iowa left some points on the board. You guys absolutely should be considered the outright favorites going into next season. Glad you are aware we are lurking in the shadows though ;)
 

js8793

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All due respect because I do actually like your analysis and find you really knowledgable but 20 points for the Bull and Spencer scenario is extremely generous. Bull winning out from the Blood Round would get him 11.5 points assuming no bonus. He would have Cameron Amine, Wittlake, Ethan Smith then O'Toole (assuming brackets played out the same) I didn't see anything from Bull this year that indicates he would bonus any of them and all due respect to Bull, his track record in the consolation bracket leads me to think it's not a given he gets all the way back to 3rd (I saw Wittlake as a potential trap similar to Marsteller in 2019) Spencer pinning out nationals would be 5.5 points more from what he got. That's also a perfect scenario for Spencer. The truth is you guys didn't have that disastrous of a tournament. You didn't have a perfect one but that almost never happens. It actually reminds me somewhat of PSU's 2019 tournament. Felt deflating but we still won by 40.

You're not wrong that Iowa left some points on the board. You guys absolutely should be considered the outright favorites going into next season. Glad you are aware we are lurking in the shadows though ;)
I'm talking about growth for next year. If Bull wins next year with no bonus, he scores 20 pts for a net gain of 16. He usually picks up early round bonus, so in this scenario he gets a net gain of 17-18. A healthy Spencer probably techs/pins his way to the finals and could bonus in the finals too. If he pins twice, techs twice, and gets a dec in the finals against Vito/Glory, that's a net gain of 2.5. We're right at 20ish now.

Obviously, that's speculative, but that's the whole conversation. I'll say it's probably more likely that a guy who has been the number 1 seed 3 times (especially with Griffith and Lewis moving up) is more likely to finally punch through, than having 3-4 guys who weren't close to placing this year all punch through.
 

RealMicah

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Feb 12, 2020
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141 - Lee
149 - SVN
157 - Bearclaw
165 - Joe

People are sleeping on Bearclaw over a couple close losses. Kid is a beast and has a lot of potential. Joe Lee looked like he was dealing with an injury to end this year and not the same guy. Get him healthy and he’ll be fine.
 

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