ADVERTISEMENT

Why is it such a big deal that Brady did not give his phone

JR4PSU

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2002
42,426
14,376
1
SE PA
if the investigators got the phones of the two stooges that deflated the balls? Wouldn't any evidence of Brady texting them be on their phones as well?
 
I haven't followed this B.S., but when you are implicated in something like this and don't cooperate, it conveys guilt in the eyes of many. Furthermore, investigators simply don't like it when the implicated don't cooperate. Also, if the other people had deleted the text messages, there is the possibility that brady didn't delete them.
 
if the investigators got the phones of the two stooges that deflated the balls? Wouldn't any evidence of Brady texting them be on their phones as well?
Just guessing, but perhaps TB told others about what he was doing--like his coach.
 
It's not a bid deal if you ask me. I wouldn't have given them my phone, either. What I find ridiculous is that I heard an interview with Tom Wells yesterday where he said that it wouldn't have changed his report had Tom Brady given him access to his phone but then went on to say that the fact that he didn't give him the phone played a role in his findings. So basically it didn't matter and it did. He also went on to say that the NFL was alerted to this before the Colts game but there was no sting operation in place to catch the Patriots. Am I really to believe that the NFL was e-mailed about the PSI being lowered by the Patriots after the refs approve the balls and believe it's totally coincidental that the NFL looked into it immediately after it happened? It sounds EXACTLY like a sting operation. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth.

Frankly the NFL has become a circus. We never talk about football when talking about the NFL anymore. The focus is always on something else. Tom Brady is likely the greatest QB to ever play. Anyone that thinks the amount of air (give or take 1PSI) in a football makes a difference should have their head examined. I can't believe there has been so much focus on this.
 
It's not a bid deal if you ask me. I wouldn't have given them my phone, either. What I find ridiculous is that I heard an interview with Tom Wells yesterday where he said that it wouldn't have changed his report had Tom Brady given him access to his phone but then went on to say that the fact that he didn't give him the phone played a role in his findings. So basically it didn't matter and it did. He also went on to say that the NFL was alerted to this before the Colts game but there was no sting operation in place to catch the Patriots. Am I really to believe that the NFL was e-mailed about the PSI being lowered by the Patriots after the refs approve the balls and believe it's totally coincidental that the NFL looked into it immediately after it happened? It sounds EXACTLY like a sting operation. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth.

Frankly the NFL has become a circus. We never talk about football when talking about the NFL anymore. The focus is always on something else. Tom Brady is likely the greatest QB to ever play. Anyone that thinks the amount of air (give or take 1PSI) in a football makes a difference should have their head examined. I can't believe there has been so much focus on this.

But the thing is, if 1 PSI doesn't make a difference then why is TB doing it? And if it does matter then depending on how long TB has been doing this maybe he wouldn't be considered so great after all. I recall when Wade Boggs was playing the announcers would say stuff like "He's such a great hitter than the umps give him the close ball/strike calls" and I'm thinking "If the umps are giving you the close ball/strike calls then it's a lot easier to be a great hitter."

Also, according to something else I read, cooperating with the law in a criminal investigation on one hand and cooperating with your employer in an investigation on the other is considered two completely different things. In the legal system you can decline to cooperate and not have it count against you. With your employer the mere act of not cooperating counts against you. So sayeth PFT at least.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wbcincy
I love the "it doesn't even help anyway" arguments. "Oh, those tapes of other team's practices don't help you make the plays on the field." "Those steroids don't help hand/eye coordination." "A couple PSI difference doesn't change anything."

What those defenders ignore is the enormous risk those cheaters take to do those things the defenders say don't make a difference. Why would they risk their integrity/reputation/health for those different efforts to cheat if they didn't really make a difference. They obviously do.
 
Brady was not legally required to give up his phone, because it is his phone and not the property of the Patriots (unlike the other phones that were turned over). Per the report, he was asked to give up his phone to a third party investigation company that presumably would do a forensic data draw as they did with the other phones. The proposed deal with Brady was that he could have his attorney review and approve any data being turned over to ensure that no information unrelated to the issue was involved.

I don't blame Brady for not turning his phone over. He appears to have been informed of the potential consequences for failing to turn it over. He had his own legal counsel involved, and he made his decision. I doubt very much that he or his advisers are surprised at all that (a) the Report said he failed to cooperate by not turning over the phone data; and (b) that he was punished more severely for not cooperating fully.

I suspect that Wells did not dwell on the issue, because he had sufficient information from the other phones to implicate Brady. The Patriots, on the other hand, were really in a Catch 22 position as the phones for the equipment guys were the property of the Patriots. They could, of course, elect not to turn them over but the failure to do so would have likely meant some very severe sanctions as their franchise agreement requires them to cooperate in any NFL investigation. Even still they elected to run the risk of a finding that they failed to fully cooperate when they refused to make the main guy, McNally, available for a second interview by Wells' team - after the forensic work on the phones was complete. Again, the Patriots had their own legal advisers looking at the matter and presumably they made the decision that it was better to accept a finding that they failed to fully cooperate in the investigation than to allow McNally to be questioned about all the discovered texts.

My guess is that the Patriot's management really were surprised to learn the extent of the "deflation" activities, and that the balls were deflated after they were supposed to be the possession of the game refs so mid-investigation, after the bad texts became known to them, their initial approach of being fully cooperative became a bit of a problem.
 
Brady was not legally required to give up his phone, because it is his phone and not the property of the Patriots (unlike the other phones that were turned over). Per the report, he was asked to give up his phone to a third party investigation company that presumably would do a forensic data draw as they did with the other phones. The proposed deal with Brady was that he could have his attorney review and approve any data being turned over to ensure that no information unrelated to the issue was involved.

I don't blame Brady for not turning his phone over. He appears to have been informed of the potential consequences for failing to turn it over. He had his own legal counsel involved, and he made his decision. I doubt very much that he or his advisers are surprised at all that (a) the Report said he failed to cooperate by not turning over the phone data; and (b) that he was punished more severely for not cooperating fully.

I suspect that Wells did not dwell on the issue, because he had sufficient information from the other phones to implicate Brady. The Patriots, on the other hand, were really in a Catch 22 position as the phones for the equipment guys were the property of the Patriots. They could, of course, elect not to turn them over but the failure to do so would have likely meant some very severe sanctions as their franchise agreement requires them to cooperate in any NFL investigation. Even still they elected to run the risk of a finding that they failed to fully cooperate when they refused to make the main guy, McNally, available for a second interview by Wells' team - after the forensic work on the phones was complete. Again, the Patriots had their own legal advisers looking at the matter and presumably they made the decision that it was better to accept a finding that they failed to fully cooperate in the investigation than to allow McNally to be questioned about all the discovered texts.

My guess is that the Patriot's management really were surprised to learn the extent of the "deflation" activities, and that the balls were deflated after they were supposed to be the possession of the game refs so mid-investigation, after the bad texts became known to them, their initial approach of being fully cooperative became a bit of a problem.
One thing everyone forgets, in this country you are guilty until proven innocent. Especially in the eyes of the media and the unknowing public. In the courts, innocence is assumed but the media could care less. It makes better headlines, especially when high profile people are involved.
 
It's not a bid deal if you ask me. I wouldn't have given them my phone, either. What I find ridiculous is that I heard an interview with Tom Wells yesterday where he said that it wouldn't have changed his report had Tom Brady given him access to his phone but then went on to say that the fact that he didn't give him the phone played a role in his findings. So basically it didn't matter and it did. He also went on to say that the NFL was alerted to this before the Colts game but there was no sting operation in place to catch the Patriots. Am I really to believe that the NFL was e-mailed about the PSI being lowered by the Patriots after the refs approve the balls and believe it's totally coincidental that the NFL looked into it immediately after it happened? It sounds EXACTLY like a sting operation. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth.

Frankly the NFL has become a circus. We never talk about football when talking about the NFL anymore. The focus is always on something else. Tom Brady is likely the greatest QB to ever play. Anyone that thinks the amount of air (give or take 1PSI) in a football makes a difference should have their head examined. I can't believe there has been so much focus on this.

Brady was required to turn over the phone because he is a player in the NFL. While the NFL cannot compel him to turn over the phone, they are certainly well within their rights to punish him or assuming the worst for failing to do so. See link

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ns-bradys-refusal-to-provide-texts-and-email/

I believe Brady was clearly protecting others from being brought into the scandal. It is also possible that there were texts sent to people other than the people who turned their phones over to the NFL that were damaging to Brady.
 
it was actually noble of brady to protect belichek.

Do you really think it is noble if Brady is trying to affirmatively hide others who may have been involved in cheating? If he is affirmatively withholding information that implicates other cheaters, that is another violation of league policy that deserves further punishment.
 
If it was his personal phone, and not provided by and paid for by the Patriots, I don't blame him. I would have done the same. That's an invasion of his privacy and since you can't prove a negative anyway handing it over would do nothing to prove his innocence, even if they didn't find anything.
 
I love the "it doesn't even help anyway" arguments. "Oh, those tapes of other team's practices don't help you make the plays on the field." "Those steroids don't help hand/eye coordination." "A couple PSI difference doesn't change anything."

What those defenders ignore is the enormous risk those cheaters take to do those things the defenders say don't make a difference. Why would they risk their integrity/reputation/health for those different efforts to cheat if they didn't really make a difference. They obviously do.
Exactly. Those arguments are as lame as "the calls even out" arguments the Big 10 mafia makes when we get hosed by the referines.

And anyone who's gripped a football knows that the pressure its inflated to makes a difference.
 
If it was his personal phone, and not provided by and paid for by the Patriots, I don't blame him. I would have done the same. That's an invasion of his privacy and since you can't prove a negative anyway handing it over would do nothing to prove his innocence, even if they didn't find anything.
According to Wells, he asked Brady's agent to provide relevant e-mails or text messages and would accept his representation that these were the only ones of that nature and Brady and his agent refused. He was never asked or expected to turn over his phone. He was and is, however, required under league rules to cooperate with an investigation and my guess would be that the league didn't think this met that criteria. Finally, this is not a criminal matter, so this is not a guilt/innocence issue, but merely whether there was sufficient evidence and/or non-cooperation to warrant punishment under league rules. IMO Brady got what he deserved.
 
Wow. Society's definitions of things like 'noble' and 'heroic' seem to have taken a serious U turn over the years.
Sounds like the pernicious "no snitching" code popularized to protect criminals in the inner city now extends to pretty boy QBs. Brady is an O G
 
  • Like
Reactions: psu00
If it was his personal phone, and not provided by and paid for by the Patriots, I don't blame him. I would have done the same. That's an invasion of his privacy and since you can't prove a negative anyway handing it over would do nothing to prove his innocence, even if they didn't find anything.

The League had reasons for seeking the text messages in his phone. A simple confidentiality agreement would have ensured that there was minimal invasion of privacy. While it was Brady's legal right to refuse to provide the phone, he must man up and face the resulting consequences when he asserts his legal rights to withhold information. IMO, the league is well within its rights to punish him solely for failing to cooperate. If he had text messages with his coach which implicates the Coach, the league has the right to see such text messages so appropriate punishments can be issued.

If you allowed everyone in the league to refuse to cooperate in league investigations without consequence, the NFL would be unable to ever conduct an investigation.

What is next? Based on your logic, a player should be able to refuse a drug test without punishment because it is an invasion of privacy?
 
What is next? Based on your logic, a player should be able to refuse a drug test without punishment because it is an invasion of privacy?

Drug testing is likely part of his employment contract, so that's not a good example. Maybe there are also some terms about what information he has to provide from his own personal property, then maybe I'd agree. But if not, I see no fault in his decision to not turn it over. Based on everything I've read he was fully cooperative in answering questions of the investigators.

Also from what I've read, there is no evidence that the "deflate" references mention anything about deflation below the minimum PSI threshold outlined in the rules. My understanding is that the rules stipulate a range in PSI is allowable, I think I saw that it was 12.5 up to either to 13.5/14.5. It's certainly possible that Brady harasses an equipment guy to ensure that all balls are deflated to the allowable minimum, which would be perfectly acceptable in the rules. When you handle the balls as often as these guys do, hundreds of times a day, they can likely feel the difference even in pretty small increments.

I haven't followed every detail here, but it's certainly feasible that this is another hired gun investigator just like Freeh. Of course it's also possible Brady did knowingly violate the rules. But I'd want to be pretty sure before dropping a 4 game suspension on him, which is even more severe than some of the NFL's punishments in domestic abuse cases.
 
One thing everyone forgets, in this country you are guilty until proven innocent. Especially in the eyes of the media and the unknowing public. In the courts, innocence is assumed but the media could care less. It makes better headlines, especially when high profile people are involved.

You're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The constitution requires no such standard for allowing you to have an opinion. There's no court or governmental involvement here, so not sure what your point is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RobBliz
You're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The constitution requires no such standard for allowing you to have an opinion. There's no court or governmental involvement here, so not sure what your point is.
Point is..it is about the media and sensationalism. pro football is a business and the stars bring headlines. Only point to be made in the post.
 
if the investigators got the phones of the two stooges that deflated the balls? Wouldn't any evidence of Brady texting them be on their phones as well?

Good for Brady and other that won't contribute to the trash that want to use them for their own gain. Just like the scum and other authorities that use folks blunders to increase their fame as they did in the Sandusky scandal, there will be those that do it the every other person that is questioned in a situation. Long ago I thought It was good to cooperate with authorities, that is until you get burned for trying to do the right thing. Humans are constantly trying to beat people down for their own advantage. Guilty or not you take the 5th amendment and lawyer up because very bad things can come from trying to do the right things.
 
[QUOTE="j

Frankly the NFL has become a circus. We never talk about football when talking about the NFL anymore. The focus is always on something else. Tom Brady is likely the greatest QB to ever play. Anyone that thinks the amount of air (give or take 1PSI) in a football makes a difference should have their head examined. I can't believe there has been so much focus on this.[/QUOTE]


The NFL has a story like this every year to fill the time between the draft and the start of preseason.

They are master manipulators of the media.

I'm really not sure why people care about this story... because if you look back you will see a similar story every year since the 1990s.

LdN
 
Good for Brady and other that won't contribute to the trash that want to use them for their own gain. Just like the scum and other authorities that use folks blunders to increase their fame as they did in the Sandusky scandal, there will be those that do it the every other person that is questioned in a situation. Long ago I thought It was good to cooperate with authorities, that is until you get burned for trying to do the right thing. Humans are constantly trying to beat people down for their own advantage. Guilty or not you take the 5th amendment and lawyer up because very bad things can come from trying to do the right things.

The NFL is using Brady for its own gain? As if Brady isn't making tens of millions of dollars being in the NFL? Brady broke the rules. He got caught. He got punished. And guess what, he's still going to make tens of millions of dollars being in the NFL.
 
I think his punishment was fair but if I was him there is no way in heck I am giving up my phone unless it's actual law enforcement. Who knows what private conversations, texts, emails etc. were on there. I don't blame him for not giving his phone at all. If I were as famous as him and his wife are I'd probably smash the way people leak things and try to make money by exposing people's private lives.
 
According to Wells, he asked Brady's agent to provide relevant e-mails or text messages and would accept his representation that these were the only ones of that nature and Brady and his agent refused. He was never asked or expected to turn over his phone. He was and is, however, required under league rules to cooperate with an investigation and my guess would be that the league didn't think this met that criteria. Finally, this is not a criminal matter, so this is not a guilt/innocence issue, but merely whether there was sufficient evidence and/or non-cooperation to warrant punishment under league rules. IMO Brady got what he deserved.
What does cooperate mean if he is innocent and has nothing to provide?

I mean, have you stopped beating your wife?
 
By the way he is guilty as sin. Four games was not enough! He should be traded to the stillers as punishment
 
ADVERTISEMENT