We are now committed and cemented to mediocrity!

Psugo823

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They also got dominated in many of their big games. Just for fun I looked up 97 and 98 where they were highly ranked to start the season.

97 losses were 34-8, 49-14, 21-6.
98 losses were 28-9, 27-0, 24-3

Thats with recruiting classes that would have been ranked in the top 10. Then we got the 99 collapse followed by the dark years. Looks like underachieving to me.
Wow. So tangled up in Franklin worship that you are dogging Joe Paterno.
Sad.
 
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c1976

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I’ve been reading a lot about Stoic philosophy of late. One tenet of theirs seems especially accurate in our new found world of social media but they studied it from 2000 +/- years ago. Humanity apparently doesn’t change much. Opinions are the source of most human misery they believe. Things that happen in life are made out to good, bad, unfair, incompetent, outrageous or whatever when they just are things that happen. We give life to these occurrences and permit them to make us miserable, combative, insular and whatever else we allow them to do to us. It amazes me that in the 21st century so many make so much money and spend so much time on opinions. But that’s just my opinion.
 
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Tweedbear

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Spot on. Franklin has lost support from about 1/2 of the Penn State nation. Unless he wins and wins big, this is going to get ugly. He now has a huge target on his back and it is almost a no-win situation for Franklin.
Please provide source of assertion that half of Penn State fan base has no confidence in Franklin.
Every other Franklin hater talks about his record against top 10 teams.
How many of them are against Ohio State. What other coach has winning record against Ohio State in this period.
 

Psugo823

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Please provide source of assertion that half of Penn State fan base has no confidence in Franklin.
Every other Franklin hater talks about his record against top 10 teams.
How many of them are against Ohio State. What other coach has winning record against Ohio State in this period.
He also has losing records against Michigan and Michigan state
 
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Wallace Breen

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Please provide source of assertion that half of Penn State fan base has no confidence in Franklin.
Every other Franklin hater talks about his record against top 10 teams.
How many of them are against Ohio State. What other coach has winning record against Ohio State in this period.
Anecdotally, I would have to agree that he has lost half the fan base, at least the engaged alumni.
 
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KidTwist

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Apr 12, 2012
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Yeah Schiano really kicked Franklin’s ass last Saturday huh? As my late father always said, you just can’t fix stupid.
No he didn't. He is in his second year trying to rebuild his program and he has minimal talent for now and he has suffered some key injuries and has a ex Nebraska walk-on as QB. He has been beating the daylights out of Franklin as OSU DC since Franklin joined the conference and when he gets his players in place he will steamroll JF in the near future, His defense and team is much tougher and disciplined than what Franklin puts on the field each week!
 

YeOldeCup

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We all wish it was different but we all also know deep down inside Franklin will never be a top tier coach. He has reached his level of incompetence. I hear the recruiting but as i said before- doesn’t matter if you cannot coach!! And he cant. His game management- atrocious! Never has ability to correct year after year. Cannot win after a bye or a lose because he loses the team, he is a statue on the sidelines staring into space when things get tough, never makes in game changes to schemes or approach, is entirely to love with himself and social media, thinks he is better than he is and his record shows that! But we are STUCK with him. I read people say- so who would we get- The future of some assistants - aka defense coach- would be much better than it ever will be with Franklin. We are now locked into being a middle of the pack big ten team for A L
My perspective has been that Franklin has all the sizzle without the steak. That said, I had no position on retention, but the situation reminded me of this reference from one of my favorite movies, "Amadeus:"

patron-saint-mediocrities.gif
 
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psu00

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As long as he keeps beating the pussy teams everyone will be happy
Problem is he has trouble doing that too. 11-10 over the past 2 years. Losses to Minnesota, Pitt, Northwestern, Maryland (twice) , Indiana, Illinois (twice), etc.

Add that to the 7-17 record against Ohio St, Michigan, and Michigan State, (including 0-3 this year), and the natives are going to be restless.
 
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Cosmos

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We would do well to remember why we hired Franklin. Purportedly it's because he can do more here (given our money and resources) than he did at Vandy. Well, he's held up that end of the bargain: 67% winning PCT here vs. 62% there. Good so far. Now for those wondering what "blue blood" programs do to a coach having a 67% PCT consider this representative sampling...

1. Ed Orgeron @ LSU: 72% over six years with one SEC title, one National Championship and 3-1 in bowl games.
2. Dan Mullen @ Florida: 69% over four years with one SEC East title and 2-1 in bowl games.
3. Mark Richt @ Georgia: 74% over 15 years, two SEC championships, six SEC East division titles and 8-5 in bowl games.
4. Clay Helton @ USC: 66% over six years, two Pac12 division titles, 2-3 in bowl games.
5. Gus Malzahn @ Auburn: 66% over eight years, finished #2 in 2013, two SEC West titles and 2-5 in bowl games.
6. Bo Pelini @ Nebraska: 70% over seven years, three Big XI North titles, a Big Ten division title, 4-3 in bowl games.
7. Les Miles @ LSU: 77% over 11.5 years, one National Championship, one #2 finish, two SEC West titles, 7-4 in bowl games.

All of the above were fired due to underperformance. I don't believe Franklin was ever a serious candidate for LSU when he fails to meet the bar set by previous coaches there. As for USC, it wound up choosing someone having an 85% winning PCT.

I wasn't a fly-on-the-wall during negotiations but anecdotal evidence suggests the following: 1) a ransom demand was made and our AD fell for it and 2) the college football universe is scratching its collective head over a 10-year contract extension.

What it all boils down to is this. What is an acceptable ROI for you? Just be mindful what's acceptable to you may not be acceptable to most people, and fannies-in-the-seats generate excitement for the program. We don't want to turn into another Pitt.
 
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PSUEngineer89

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We would do well to remember why we hired Franklin. Purportedly it's because he can do more here (given our money and resources) than he did at Vandy. Well, he's held up that end of the bargain: 67% winning PCT here vs. 62% there. Good so far. Now for those wondering what "blue blood" programs do to a coach having a 67% PCT consider this representative sampling...

1. Ed Orgeron @ LSU: 72% over six years with one SEC title, one National Championship and 3-1 in bowl games.
2. Dan Mullen @ Florida: 69% over four years with one SEC East title and 2-1 in bowl games.
3. Mark Richt @ Georgia: 74% over 15 years, two SEC championships, six SEC East division titles and 8-5 in bowl games.
4. Clay Helton @ USC: 66% over six years, two Pac12 division titles, 2-3 in bowl games.
5. Gus Malzahn @ Auburn: 66% over eight years, finished #2 in 2013, two SEC West titles and 2-5 in bowl games.
6. Bo Pelini @ Nebraska: 70% over seven years, three Big XI North titles, a Big Ten division title, 4-3 in bowl games.
7. Les Miles @ LSU: 77% over 11.5 years, one National Championship, one #2 finish, two SEC West titles, 7-4 in bowl games.

All of the above were fired due to underperformance. I don't believe Franklin was ever a serious candidate for LSU when he fails to meet the bar set by previous coaches there. As for USC, it wound up choosing someone having an 85% winning PCT.

I wasn't a fly-on-the-wall during negotiations but anecdotal evidence suggests the following: 1) a ransom demand was made and our AD fell for it and 2) the college football universe is scratching its collective head over a 10-year contract extension.

What it all boils down to is this. What is an acceptable ROI for you? Just be mindful what's acceptable to you may not be acceptable to most people, and fannies-in-the-seats generate excitement for the program. We don't want to turn into another Pitt.
Good post. Interesting information.

I wonder if Sandy Barbour had even that information at her disposal....oh, never mind.
 
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PSU_Nut

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I will give 4 coaches in our conference that will kick Franklin's ass on a regular basis and are much better coaches than he is:

1. Greg Schiano
2. PJ Fleck
3. Brett Beliema
4. Jeff Brohm

They are better game coaches and team motivators than Franklin.
Schiano? In his 14 seasons as a head coach his overall record is 76-80 with one top 25 season. Franklin had more top 25 seasons at Vandy then Schiano has had his entire career.
 

Cosmos

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Good post. Interesting information.

I wonder if Sandy Barbour had even that information at her disposal....oh, never mind.

Your sarcasm isn't lost on me. I'm sure the tolerance level/hurdle rate of the PSU fan base entered into her calculus. After all, this aint her first rodeo. She had her fiscal, fund-raising and managerial challenges while at Cal. At any rate, you needn't dig far to find other "blue blood" programs where 67% doesn't cut it: Kevin Sumlin at Texas A&M (66%) and Mack Brown at Texas (77%). Although the latter technically resigned, we all know he was forced out.

What it all comes down to is your tolerance level relative to your investment. You'll know you've overshot when you see a half empty stadium.
 
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Cosmos

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Problem is he has trouble doing that too. 11-10 over the past 2 years. Losses to Minnesota, Pitt, Northwestern, Maryland (twice) , Indiana, Illinois (twice), etc.

Add that to the 7-17 record against Ohio St, Michigan, and Michigan State, (including 0-3 this year), and the natives are going to be restless.

True.

Also, should your boss underperform and still get paid well then there's a good chance you'll follow her example. I mean, why work for it when you don't have to. :cool:

Oakland Raiders owner Al Davis had his "Commitment to Excellence" mantra used to inspire coaches and players. Our AD has her "Comprehensive Excellence" one.
 
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PSU_Nut

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No he didn't. He is in his second year trying to rebuild his program and he has minimal talent for now and he has suffered some key injuries and has a ex Nebraska walk-on as QB. He has been beating the daylights out of Franklin as OSU DC since Franklin joined the conference and when he gets his players in place he will steamroll JF in the near future, His defense and team is much tougher and disciplined than what Franklin puts on the field each week!
If Schiano was such a great head coach why is he 76-80 in 14 seasons? Why does he have only one top 25 seasons? Why does he have more losing season then winning seasons? Why couldn't he even win a severely weakened Big East conference?

If he is such a defensive genius why is his team 85th in rushing defense, 68th in passing yard allowed, 99th in passing efficiency defense, 78th in total defense?
 

heckmans

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Feb 13, 2006
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We all wish it was different but we all also know deep down inside Franklin will never be a top tier coach. He has reached his level of incompetence. I hear the recruiting but as i said before- doesn’t matter if you cannot coach!! And he cant. His game management- atrocious! Never has ability to correct year after year. Cannot win after a bye or a lose because he loses the team, he is a statue on the sidelines staring into space when things get tough, never makes in game changes to schemes or approach, is entirely to love with himself and social media, thinks he is better than he is and his record shows that! But we are STUCK with him. I read people say- so who would we get- The future of some assistants - aka defense coach- would be much better than it ever will be with Franklin. We are now locked into being a middle of the pack big ten team for A L
Have hope. Spurrier won a Natty at UF and he is also a great recruiter, but deficient coach.
 

MacNit07

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Franklin just had 31 wins 3 years in a row before Covid. Had 42 wins in 4 years, and 28 B1G wins, most ever in program history. Where do you want to get back to? Some here need to do some research. He also rebuilt a program that was told it wouldn't recruit a 4 or 5 star player in the next 10 years. He did it with crap facilities, decades behind nearly everyone in the B1G minus Rutgers.

Franklin did a great job but he peaked years ago. He is in a major slide in the wrong direction. After these last two years with next year promising to be as bad or worse? What else do you need to see? Hope for 2023? Good grief, how much slack does this guy need cut. He can not get it done in big games? And throws in some additional clunkers (Illinois) just for fun.

Time for a change.
 
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Hotshoe

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Franklin did a great job but he peaked yearns ago. He is in a major slide in the wrong direction. After these last two years with next year promising to be as bad or worse? What else do you need to see? Hope for 2023? Good grief, how much slack does this guy need cut. He can not get it done in big games? And throws in some additional clunkers (Illinois) just for fun.

Tine for a change.
Hey, you ride on that change. Good luck.
 

Psugo823

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Right now the best case scenario is when Sandy is gone, the new guy comes in and gives Franklin the same ultimatum that Michigan gave Harbaugh. Then it's sink or swim. The contract will either hamstring this program for the next 2 years, or, Franklin will decide on a vision and a re assessment of his philosophy about what it takes to win in the Big Ten. To me, that has to mean a return to physical football with a commitment to line play on both sides of the ball, instead of focusing on freak athletes who can't actually play the game(12) and chunk plays.
 
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PSU2UNC

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I realize this is behind a pay wall but this is an interesting article that tracked coaching changes at major programs focusing on when schools were doing well but "swung for the fences". How often did it work out?
(I think you might be able to get one free article a month?)

Anyway, the summary is out of 20 coaching changes:

Four "worked" (although worked is operationally defined here, e.g. Harbaugh "worked" and Malzahn worked (at Auburn he won a NC, but was mediocre otherwise)

Eight stayed the same (i.e. spent a lot of money on a new coach for similar results)

Eight got worse (i.e. spent a lot of money for worse results).

Just some perspective about those clamoring for change.
 
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crm114psu

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I realize this is behind a pay wall but this is an interesting article that tracked coaching changes at major programs focusing on when schools were doing well but "swung for the fences". How often did it work out?
(I think you might be able to get one free article a month?)

Anyway, the summary is out of 20 coaching changes:

Four "worked" (although worked is operationally defined here, e.g. Harbaugh "worked" and Malzahn worked (at Auburn he won a NC, but was mediocre otherwise)

Eight stayed the same (i.e. spent a lot of money on a new coach for similar results)

Eight got worse (i.e. spent a lot of money for worse results).

Just some perspective about those clamoring for change.
What year did Malzahn win a NC at Auburn? Do you follow college football?
 
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PSU2UNC

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It is not evident from your comments. Perhaps you should pay attention to detail.
I'm sure you've never had a typo in your life. Jesus...

I'd wager I watch more CFB game per year than you do but perhaps you watch the all 22 from all 130 teams every week.

Please don't let our disagreements on other topics on this forum spill over into football discussions. It doesn't become you.
 

Option Bob

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May 29, 2001
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I realize this is behind a pay wall but this is an interesting article that tracked coaching changes at major programs focusing on when schools were doing well but "swung for the fences". How often did it work out?
(I think you might be able to get one free article a month?)

Anyway, the summary is out of 20 coaching changes:

Four "worked" (although worked is operationally defined here, e.g. Harbaugh "worked" and Malzahn worked (at Auburn he won a NC, but was mediocre otherwise)

Eight stayed the same (i.e. spent a lot of money on a new coach for similar results)

Eight got worse (i.e. spent a lot of money for worse results).

Just some perspective about those clamoring for change.

Couldn't read the article, but your summary is interesting.

However, wasn't the Auburn coach who won a national title Gene Chizik? I thought Malzahn lost the title game in 2013. But my non-Penn State football memory os shaky.
 

KCLion

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I'm sure you've never had a typo in your life. Jesus...

I'd wager I watch more CFB game per year than you do but perhaps you watch the all 22 from all 130 teams every week.

Please don't let our disagreements on other topics on this forum spill over into football discussions. It doesn't become you.
He’s a miserable “human being”
 

crm114psu

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May 11, 2016
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Couldn't read the article, but your summary is interesting.

However, wasn't the Auburn coach who won a national title Gene Chizik? I thought Malzahn lost the title game in 2013. But my non-Penn State football memory os shaky.
Yes, you remember correctly Bob. But don't worry about some minor detail like that, just probably a typo, facts are not important.
 
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PearlSUJam

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Dec 31, 2013
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I realize this is behind a pay wall but this is an interesting article that tracked coaching changes at major programs focusing on when schools were doing well but "swung for the fences". How often did it work out?
(I think you might be able to get one free article a month?)

Anyway, the summary is out of 20 coaching changes:

Four "worked" (although worked is operationally defined here, e.g. Harbaugh "worked" and Malzahn worked (at Auburn he won a NC, but was mediocre otherwise)

Eight stayed the same (i.e. spent a lot of money on a new coach for similar results)

Eight got worse (i.e. spent a lot of money for worse results).

Just some perspective about those clamoring for change.
 

PSU2UNC

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Feb 9, 2016
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Couldn't read the article, but your summary is interesting.

However, wasn't the Auburn coach who won a national title Gene Chizik? I thought Malzahn lost the title game in 2013. But my non-Penn State football memory os shaky.
As already noted above this was a typo. Malzahn made it to the NC game in 2014 but lost to FSU.
 

NoBareFeet

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Franklin did a great job but he peaked years ago. He is in a major slide in the wrong direction. After these last two years with next year promising to be as bad or worse? What else do you need to see? Hope for 2023? Good grief, how much slack does this guy need cut. He can not get it done in big games? And throws in some additional clunkers (Illinois) just for fun.

Time for a change.
No one wants to state the obvious. There is a reason that Penn State leadership is very proud to state that James Franklin is the head coach at Penn State, and a reason they are very reluctant to try and get rid of him. Actual job performance is secondary.
 

MacNit07

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Aug 5, 2017
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I realize this is behind a pay wall but this is an interesting article that tracked coaching changes at major programs focusing on when schools were doing well but "swung for the fences". How often did it work out?
(I think you might be able to get one free article a month?)

Anyway, the summary is out of 20 coaching changes:

Four "worked" (although worked is operationally defined here, e.g. Harbaugh "worked" and Malzahn worked (at Auburn he won a NC, but was mediocre otherwise)

Eight stayed the same (i.e. spent a lot of money on a new coach for similar results)

Eight got worse (i.e. spent a lot of money for worse results).

Just some perspective about those clamoring for change.
Current state is already intolerable. So what’s the risk?
No one wants to state the obvious. There is a reason that Penn State leadership is very proud to state that James Franklin is the head coach at Penn State, and a reason they are very reluctant to try and get rid of him. Actual job performance is secondary.
I don’t want to state it either…primarily because I hope it is not true…but I do wonder if it drives - at least partially - the lack of accountability…let’s hope not but it is 2021.
 

PSU2UNC

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Feb 9, 2016
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Current state is already intolerable. So what’s the risk?
Intolerable to who? You? Why are you the arbiter of what is tolerable?

I'm glad he's the head coach. There is no one PSU could get who would definitely be better. History (the article I linked) supports that assertion. So you either want to spend a lot of money to be worse or the same or maybe be marginally better (e.g. defining Harbaugh as a success is....woof) when the stats say you probably won't be marginally better? Hard pass.
 

MacNit07

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Intolerable to who? You? Why are you the arbiter of what is tolerable?

I'm glad he's the head coach. There is no one PSU could get who would definitely be better. History (the article I linked) supports that assertion. So you either want to spend a lot of money to be worse or the same or maybe be marginally better (e.g. defining Harbaugh as a success is....woof) when the stats say you probably won't be marginally better? Hard pass.
And many others…people who want to win or at least not see our football team get pushed around and bullied by the likes of Illinois…not a good look for the sport of football. Not what Penn State football has been all about.

Easy cheetah, if you are satisfied with that status quo, good on you.

I’d much prefer the approach that USC just deployed or LSU (much as I dislike Kelly).

Program is in a very precarious position right now. Back-to-back very weak seasons. And no signs that we are prepared to dominate or even compete in the trenches. Ultimately, if we are not able to hold our own on the O and D Line, we can expect performances like the last two years. Minus an unforeseen major change, next year might be the worse than this year and last. More getting bullied is no fun to watch (to most).

Really quite sad. But to some lifelong fans, yes - intolerable.
 

PSU2UNC

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And many others…people who want to win or at least not see our football team get pushed around and bullied by the likes of Illinois…not a good look for the sport of football. Not what Penn State football has been all about.

Easy cheetah, if you are satisfied with that status quo, good on you.

I’d much prefer the approach that USC just deployed or LSU (much as I dislike Kelly).

Program is in a very precarious position right now. Back-to-back very weak seasons. And no signs that we are prepared to dominate or even compete in the trenches. Ultimately, if we are not able to hold our own on the O and D Line, we can expect performances like the last two years. Minus an unforeseen major change, next year might be the worse than this year and last. More getting bullied is no fun to watch (to most).

Really quite sad. But to some lifelong fans, yes - intolerable.
I'm a life long fan who remembers watching both NC games and was in school for the 1994 undefeated season.

I also remember the early 2000s.

A bowl season is not a "very weak season". As I pointed out, it was 4 plays between 7-5 and a NY6 (possible playoff) season. That's really, really close; not really, really far. Changing tactics when you are really, really close is foolhardy.
 

MacNit07

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I'm a life long fan who remembers watching both NC games and was in school for the 1994 undefeated season.

I also remember the early 2000s.

A bowl season is not a "very weak season". As I pointed out, it was 4 plays between 7-5 and a NY6 (possible playoff) season. That's really, really close; not really, really far. Changing tactics when you are really, really close is foolhardy.
And one more play in the Wisconsin and Auburn games and it could be 5-7. “Bowl season?” You must work in the AD’s PR department. We might be headed to Detroit for God’s sakes - against some godforsaken directional Michigan team. You know, like the type of bowl where we snickered at Pitt.

Last year’s team was “bowl bound” too…but the Team did not want to play. Penn State teams of the last would have walked on broken glass to play in front of the best fans in college football. Now? We opt out. Or don’t prepare or show up because it’s cold out. Reflects the leadership…of the Team, of the Athletic Department , and have the University. Shameful.

This was close to back-to-back catastrophic seasons.

7-5 is a very bad season for a team with the talent level of Penn State. And more so because of how Penn State is pushed around like the conference 98 pound weaklings. They are able to beat some of the other bottom dwellers (Maryland, for example) because they are more talented. But compete against big boys with this type of softness? Never. With enough talent, we can continue to hover around middle of the pack.

Never going to get back above mediocrity until we start punching some teams in the mouth. This team is in slow death spiral. Offensive Line play is actually getting worse.

Look at next years schedule and try to imagine much better than 7-5…that will be 3 seasons in a row of mediocrity.

I have spoken with some (Football) Letterman and this is the general consensus. They are embarrassed to see Penn State bullied. They are appalled by the lack of attention to detail. And they are angry/sad to see the program with a lack of toughness and intestinal fortitude.
 

Conemaugh

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If Schiano was such a great head coach why is he 76-80 in 14 seasons? Why does he have only one top 25 seasons? Why does he have more losing season then winning seasons? Why couldn't he even win a severely weakened Big East conference?

If he is such a defensive genius why is his team 85th in rushing defense, 68th in passing yard allowed, 99th in passing efficiency defense, 78th in total defense?
Because he coached at Rutgers. Winning five games in a season is a huge coaching success at Rutgers. It is extremely hard for a football coach to win at Rutgers. It is NOT extremely hard for a football coach to win at Penn State.