Many LOYAL Penn State fans feel Joe was simply selfish. He always admitted he had no other interests but football.. Instead of retiring in the late 90"s (like he should have) he held the program hostage until the nightmare hit in 2011. Loved the guy, but, he stuck around for about 10 years much too long.
way before the sanctions ......
- Thread starter dawgduice
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Well, much like us, that is why the CHANGE. The were GREAT as WERE we. We have only been relevant a couple of times in the last 15 years! Look, I loved Joe, and do not see him involved with the Sandusky crap, but he stayed WAY WAY too long. He should have used Rip Engle, his mentor, as the model. I was amazed his EGO became so out of control he would not do the right thing and "professionally" hand the team over to a deserving assistant. Not quite sure what in the world he was thinking? To me, he STOPPED being Joe.
PSU also won the B1G in 2009 (and 2005). We certainly suffered with Joe's inability to visit recruits and because prospects didn't know who their coach would be. But it's not like the program was in deep trouble. No sanctions and a new coach would have kept us a top 20 team.
Bd, in all due respect I do not think PSU should only have a year or two of relevance in the last 15? Why? Prior to that we were top 10 almost EVERY year (I know a bit of over the top). Being realistic, I "expect" to be top 10-20 EVERY year. Michigan feels the same way, why else do they keep changing coaches? I think we have the one in Franklin
We most likely will finish 10-2 or 9-3 this year, does that make us relevant? As for me I see it as a stepping stone too the next level.
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Pretty presumptuous.Bd, in all due respect I do not think PSU should only have a year or two of relevance in the last 15? Why? Prior to that we were top 10 almost EVERY year. Being realistic, I "expect" to be top 10-20 EVERY year. Michigan feels the same way, why else do they keep changing coaches? I think we have the one in Franklin
We most likely will finish 10-2 or 9-3 this year, does that make us relevant? As for me I see it as a stepping stone too the next level.
Why most likely 10-2 this year? Weak OL, new DEs, etc. 8-4 seems more likely to me. Maybe 9-3 if Hack & OL improve.Bd, in all due respect I do not think PSU should only have a year or two of relevance in the last 15? Why? Prior to that we were top 10 almost EVERY year (I know a bit of over the top). Being realistic, I "expect" to be top 10-20 EVERY year. Michigan feels the same way, why else do they keep changing coaches? I think we have the one in Franklin
We most likely will finish 10-2 or 9-3 this year, does that make us relevant? As for me I see it as a stepping stone too the next level.
I agree that Joe stayed too long and that it hurt recruiting and a few wins. But the team averaged 10 wins from 2005 until the Sandusky mess. Also, our recruiting class was top 5 that year until the decommits. I think it's wrong to say the program was in big trouble.
Pretty ironic from a guy whose sole focus is on winning a national title. Can you remind us who won the national title last year? What kinds of kids did they bring in to win it?
If
And it is two different things whether Joe hung on too long and whether the program did OK form 2005-11. It is impossible to prove whether the program would -have done better or worse with someone else during that stretch. But, the bottom line is, some of us are not convinced Joe was really doing much of anything at all towards the end, and it is possible we would have been even better in that stretch under someone else.
My guess on the 10-2 or 9-3 is by looking at the teams on the schedule - what teams do you think we might be underdogs against? For me it is OSU and MSU, and maybe NW (doubt it). Last year we should have won two games we lost. Did we win any where we were underdogs?
I expect us to be substantially better because we will have some real depth, plus our first 6 games are really not very challenging (that will allow more young kids to gain experience). Could we lose games we should win? Sure. If you do not agree and you think 8-4 pick your teams that we lose to
Being 10-2 or 9-3 with this schedule does not make us good Certainly we all have our opinions, I just feel we can be better as we once were. I recall when we first entered the Big 10 what our teams looked like - very much like the current OSU teams - 2-3 guys deep at every position (all 4-star quality).
Maybe I am being too harsh I just do not see being MSU or Wisc as a goal. We should be, and we will, under Franklin, be at the OSU, Bama, LSU, USC level !!!! I think we have gone through our "dark ages". Goodness we were in "Major" bowl games almost every year
2005: Ohio State, Penn State
2006: Ohio State
2007: Ohio State
2008: Ohio State, Penn State
2009: Ohio State
2010: Michigan State, Wisconsin
2011: Wisconsin
Ohio State: 5
Penn State: 2
Wisconsin: 2
Michigan State: 1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Big_Ten_Conference_football_champions
For many years, Joe was retained with the idea that he would leave on his terms because he earned that right. That is often the case with a legend. Could Penn State have fielded some better teams in his last 10 years with another coach at the helm? Perhaps, but as has been mentioned throughout this thread, Joe fielded some good teams during that period.
Nebraska over the last 15 years has fielded mediocre teams with non-legendary coaches. It is easy for a school to cut ties with the likes of Callahan and Pellini. It's not so easy when you have a guy like Osborne or Joe. That, of course, brings up another point. Many top programs have struggled for years after a legendary coach has retired. Had Joe stepped aside in 2002, there is no guarantee that Penn State would have been better on the field or off it. Related to that, had Joe retired in 2002, he obviously would not have retired with 409 wins. Frankly, I take a lot more pride in 409 than I would have had a younger guy come in in 2005 and won a national championship. National championships are great, obviously, but 409 happens once in a lifetime. It may never happen again in college football.
That doesn't seem correct to me, as it says that Bret Bielema and Joe have the same number of Big Ten Championships, and Bielema was only the coach at Wisconsin for a couple of years. I think anyone can edit wikipedia pages, so I don't think it is a very reliable source.
Yep, PSU Nut is the poster child for the person who always likes to to keep Paterno's name closely associated with the Sandusky scandal and it's solely because Paterno didn't win enough football games for him.
Okay, we'll go straight to the horses mouth then. Straight from the Big Ten Website:
2005: Ohio State, Penn State
Link - Page 8 for 2005 final standings
2006: Ohio State
Link - Page 36 for 2006 Standings
2007: Ohio State
Link
2008: Ohio State, Penn State
Link
2009: Ohio State
Link
2010: Wisconsin, Michigan State*
Link
2011: Wisconsin
Link - Page 36 for Title Game Recap
Ohio State: 5
Penn State: 2
Wisconsin: 2
Michigan State: 1
*2010 was vacated by Ohio State, though they are listed in this recap as a co-champ. Here's the link for the vacated 2010: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6749330
LOL.
Wisconsin finished 2010 at 11-2 (7-1 in the Big Ten). Michigan State also finished 7-1 in the Big Ten. So did Ohio State, but that was the year the wins were vacated.
In 2011, Wisconsin won the inaugural Big Ten Championship game over MSU. Bielema was the coach at Wisconsin from 2006-12.
These things aren't hard to look up.
My guess on the 10-2 or 9-3 is by looking at the teams on the schedule - what teams do you think we might be underdogs against? For me it is OSU and MSU, and maybe NW (doubt it). Last year we should have won two games we lost. Did we win any where we were underdogs?
I expect us to be substantially better because we will have some real depth, plus our first 6 games are really not very challenging (that will allow more young kids to gain experience). Could we lose games we should win? Sure. If you do not agree and you think 8-4 pick your teams that we lose to
Certainly we all have our opinions, I just feel we can be better as we once were. I recall when we first entered the Big 10 what our teams looked like - very much like the current OSU teams - 2-3 guys deep at every position (all 4-star quality).
Maybe I am being too harsh I just do not see being MSU or Wisc as a goal. We should be, and we will, under Franklin, be at the OSU, Bama, LSU, USC level !!!! I think we have gone through our "dark ages". Goodness we were in "Major" bowl games almost every year
PSU was 7-6 last year. Yes we lost winnable games to Illinois & Maryland. We also won close games against UCF & BC. This year our WRs s/b better. DT, RB, TE, and DB should be good like last year. I think the OL will continue to struggle and we have to replace both DEs and Ficken. 8-4 seems like a logical progression. Heavy underdogs to OSU & MSU and slight favorites against all others. The problem is that any of the other B1G teams could beat us.
I agree that the program can get back to the point where we were but I'm not sure that's perennial top 10. I'd say top 10 25% of the time and top 25 80% of the time. But it will likely take a few years to get there. We don't have many 4* linemen or LBs on campus right now and we'll probably be breaking in a new QB next year.
OK, I'll take that
Regarding our schedule this year, I found out that four of the Big 10 teams we play this year will have "first" year QBs. I think, another edge for us. Again, we "should" be favored in 10 or our games. Do we win all of them? You could be right and we do lose 4.The Penn State football program was in trouble BEFORE the sanctions? Congratulations. That has to be the most brain dead quote of the year.
Before the sanctions, we were probably the most respected program in the NCAA. That to me is exponentially more important than a couple of extra 4 star WRs that can't read or write, or a couple of more wins when you are already winning at a 77% clip over a 7 year period.
We lived in true Camelot. You guys don't know how good we had it. Thanks in large part to Joe, having a Penn State degree pre-sanction was something special.
Not quite sure what your point is? You thought we were good? Winning games against Indiana, Temple? Really? Losing time and time again against a "quality" opponent . Probably just me - looking for the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's PSU (Camelot !!!). I can't change the numbers or the results.
Maybe it's the "brain dead" thing
That is quite obvious. Also what is quite obvious is that you value winning football games more than anything else. You just don't get it, do you?Not quite sure what your point is? You thought we were good? Winning games against Indiana, Temple? Really? Losing time and time again against a "quality" opponent . Probably just me - looking for the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's PSU (Camelot !!!). I can't change the numbers or the results.
Maybe it's the "brain dead" thing
And to you Buffalo, that was a beautifully written post.
Not quite sure what your point is? You thought we were good? Winning games against Indiana, Temple? Really? Losing time and time again against a "quality" opponent . Probably just me - looking for the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's PSU (Camelot !!!). I can't change the numbers or the results.
Maybe it's the "brain dead" thing
To me, loyalty means something. I didn't care if we went 0-12 every year, and I told people that. Joe did far more for this University than just win a few football games, and for that, I told people he could coach here till he was 500 years old if he lived that long.
When Joe was here, we won and lost as a Family. But we all strived to make the University a better place academically. We had respect everywhere we went, because we did things the right way. What we had, National Championships can't replace.
Corbett and his hired guns on the Board destroyed everything Joe worked to build up in about an hour on a November night in 2011. Now we are, at best, just like everyone else. Instead of us now bragging about how many of our athletes we graduate, we have to defend the narrative put out there by Joe's ousters that we are all scum.
There will never be another Joe. BOB proved that when he was gone after two years. Let's hope Franklin will stay longer.
What is ironic is that in a couple of years, if Franklin is struggling through his second 6-6 season in a row, I will be the one advocating that he stay, while it will probably be you that will want to kick him out of the door.
I agree with everything you have written in this thread Buffalo. To me, winning was important, but not more important that doing it the right way. Joe brought honor to this University in a way the Sabans of the world do not.
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