Show me a country or state with a high mask compliance rate that didn't have a huge surge.
OT: USA COVID-19 Vaccination Updates
- Thread starter Tom McAndrew
- Start date
Show me a country or state with a high mask compliance rate that didn't have a huge surge.
Someone should create a huge spreadsheet of all the decision makers in this thing and what they did with their kids. Big Commish allowing his son to play at MSU, yet cancelling the BIG Season out of safety. Be interesting to see who allowed their kids to live life while shutting everyone else down.
You might turn out to be correct, but what is your basis for making that statement? Or do you have no basis?
What is the basis for the contrary? If wearing a mask did absolutely zero to save lives, why did doctors bother to wear masks when treating covid patients?
Murphy did say that which is of course bullshit since if that was his attitude then there are literally hundreds of things he could do to save a life - close bars an hour early would probable save many lives lost to drunks that went over the limit that last hour and there are hundreds of more examples such his reasoning is idiotic.
Murphy also said reason he is doing it because there was a spike in January and another in March and he doesn't want a third. So again, showing his incomptence (and that this is about politics and not science) as with the combination of vaccination rate (which is high in NJ) and previous infection (which again is very high in NJ) that third spike cannot happen.
Oh yeah, daily positive in NJ is now 437 on the 7 day rolling average so per capita is about as low as anywhere in the state.
He said that he will lift the mask mandate when 'he' feels comfortable with the health metrics. So literally he and he alone makes the decision. Powers that governors have is just crazy.
With respect to the mask discussion, I look at S. Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Vietnam etc. In that part of the world, there was very little community spread of COVID. They also employed robust contact tracing coupled with quarantine for people who came in contact with infected individuals.
i would also throw in that mix that those countries probably a much, much higher percentage of people with natural immunity levels due to previous exposure to similar virus as Southeast Asia is just a hotbed of virus infections.
Without either high levels of previous infection or high vaccination rates or some combo of both no country is immune, no matter how well they think they are doing containing it.
The same hunch that the OP had when he said their masking and contract tracing was better than California's? Or do hunches only work one way?
A guy without a real science degree posts nonsense that is blue - hunch OK?
A guy who has posted a ton of data and analysis that is red - hunch not OK?
We give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who has not once given reason or theory or data?
common sense and a little bit of scientific reasoning.
I'm curious, why do you choose to challenge this position that you believe to be true while NOT challenging the other guy's more unreasonable position?
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His statement was unmitigated bullshit on its face alone. No evidence needs to be presented.
There sure is a lot of "anti-science" in this crowd.
You're almost surely right, but there is a reason that we used to teach "show your work" in engineering, math, and physics.
There really is - and that's what separates those who can be trusted to
Because we should all hold each other to a minimum standard.
I routinely correct errors and sloppy thinking on both sides.
Routinely.
That's a cop out answer, in THIS case, you should have challenged bang since you don't agree with him. btw, you never challenge him like I challenged his Twitter spin/sources, I wonder why that is.
Look at the numbers. These "spikes" are less than the US is at currently -- and we think we are doing great right now.
But shouldn't masks have the same level of effectiveness all of the time? Has mask use fluctuated there which made spikes possible?
Explain this.....
Biweekly confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people
Biweekly confirmed cases refers to the cumulative number of cases over the previous two weeks. Due to limited testing, the number of confirmed cases is lower than the true number of infections.
ourworldindata.org
or this.....
COVID-19 Data Explorer
Research and data to make progress against the world’s largest problems
ourworldindata.org
I don't know their rules and how they might have changed. But when you have such low numbers to start, a small increase looks like a "spike" on a graph.
It's possible the more important question is what vaccines are these countries getting? Are they getting crap and thinking they are safe and ending up with more cases? I don't know the answers to these questions. I just know that these graphs look more scary than they really are -- because that's what the person who made the graphs wanted them to do. To use countries who during a "spike" are doing better than the US in a down cycle to prove masks don't work is stupid.
I don't see anyone's twitter or facebook links (and I'm thankful for that).
I'm so sick and tired of people who know NOTHING telling me to "here, disprove with this link from this garbage journalist who says otherwise".
I will link this short explanation of masks and why they didn't work to stop the pandemic here. It is unfortunate that the longer discussion was nuked because......no idea. It was solely focused on the physics behind emitted aerosolized particles and the impact of mask on said airflow and circulation in a room.
And in response to another poster:
Then, my favorite response - someone links me to someone else and wants me to do the work of refuting what they wish to believe (however the poster was a good guy, so fine):
And then it was said that I did not prove it (Queue Feynman here):
And since it ALWAYS seems necessary:
And in response to another poster:
Then, my favorite response - someone links me to someone else and wants me to do the work of refuting what they wish to believe (however the poster was a good guy, so fine):
And then it was said that I did not prove it (Queue Feynman here):
And since it ALWAYS seems necessary:
This kind of assumes that everyone stays in the room until they get the required viral load, nobody moves around and their air circulation in the room is poor. As your post below states, regular masks provide some level of protection. This level could increase the length of time necessary to hit the viral load needed to become infected. And therefore, is proof masks do work -- even in the closed room (although only for a certain extended period of time).
This is why I always wore my N95 masks (I happened to have a couple of partially used packages I bought to do drywalling projects). If I need a N95 mask to filter drywall dust (instead of a bandana), then no way was I trusting a bandana against virus infected aerosols.
yet another case of Fauci going anti science because we can't handle the truth
Pretty interesting. This is, now, quite a few times when he was "less than honest" (giving him the benefit of the doubt). I hope he enjoyed his credibility when he had it and his one-time shot destroying it was worth it.
and the perception was what? Even after a vaccination we should still wear a mask?
They key takeaway (and MIT had a similar finding last month that essentially said distance is irrelevant in a room) is that the predominant mode of infection is not casual contact but rather prolonged contact. And in that situation, masks make only minimal difference because the best feature of the mask (reducing the distance particles are ejected, but not as much the amount of aerosolized particles ejected) doesn't matter much.
Yes. N95 mask - different ball game.
OSHA chimes in on employers mandating a vaccine under EUA. Wonder if this would also apply to schools that require students to have the vaccine as a condition of attendance?
It’s also possible that employers requiring the injections may be held legally liable for violating federal law.
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The question and answer in full:
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Employers may be liable for ‘any adverse reaction’ from mandated coronavirus shots: OSHA
It’s also possible that employers requiring the injections may be held legally liable for violating federal law.
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The question and answer in full:
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Agreed. But anyone suggesting masks are completely worthless are wrong. Could definitely make a difference in plenty of situations where people need to be near each other for a certain length of time.
Then where have they worked? Why has no country or state seen any difference in covid rates despite wide ranging NPIs?
They are a much healthier population. My father-in-law is a physician who said that we don't have a COVID problem we have a country that is extremely unhealthy problem.
You are correct. The mask gods cannot produce a single study using a random control trial that demonstrates masks provide any statistically significant benefit in preventing virus transmission or infection. The CDC acknowledes this fact. A study in Denmark in August 2020 using a RCT did in fact show no difference and wearing a mask possibly could make increase the infection rate for Covid. The Danes were stunned because they believed that masks work.
If masks worked why are they not considered hazardous waste? They have virus particles all over them. If masks worked, why do my glasses fog up (that is warm air escaping the mask when I exhale)? One problem is that masks actually break up droplets into smaller particles when leaving the mask allowing them to stay airborne longer. The CDC has confirmed that Covid is aerosolized, masks have zero chance of protecting you from an aerosolized virus. If masks worked, why did the CDC advise that masks would not prevent damage from smoke particles during the wildfires last year (smoke particles are significantly bigger than covid particles). If masks worked, then a chain link fence would stop insects. That is the problem, virus particles are generally between 5 and 15 microns in diameter, the holes on a N95 are 30 microns. The width of a human hair is 10,000 times greater than a particle of covid virus. The holes on the mask are significantly bigger than a covid particle, even N95s.
Studies that rely upon comuputer simulations, using mannequins and anecdotes are not legitimate science. In the early 80's in the UK, they ran a study to test the effectiveness of masks in the surgical suite. The study found that going maskless actually reduced the rate of bacterial infection (hard to believe). Bacteria particles are bigger than virus particles.
Last thing, if masks worked then they really must hate us since they have not required masks in the past to stop the flu. They are going to try to now, it will not make a difference.
This is the main reason, as a society we are unhealthy. I know people will give their personal experiences of perfectly healthy 2% body fat marathoners dying but a healthier society prevents half these deaths or more.
Went through two flu seasons with virtually no deaths, assume a regular amount per year and you are 100k. add in all the obese and their issues etc. add another 100k easy. Not saying its not pandemic worthy but at least a third of it can be explained in just those two reasons
I'm willing to say that an N95 mask makes a definite difference. Meaning it reduces your chances of getting the virus more than 50%.
I'm not willing to say that a regular mask cuts your risk of infection by more than 10%. It might, but I'm not too sure. I will try to look up some data (If we had a competent government, they'd have conducted a study on aerosolized virus emissions with and without a mask where the dependent variable was particle density in an enclosed room. I guess they're going to do that right after Fauci conducts the very critical, gold standard study on the efficacy of HCQ, Az, and Zinc when given early in the disease.)
Danmask-19 found that there was no statistically difference in the probability of catching Covid wearing a normal mask or no mask. Wearing a mask for one month yielded P(infection) = 1.8%, and without a mask P(infection) = 2.1%. Omitting any discussion about statistical significance, that's only a small improvement. I'm sure my commentary earlier explains the issue.
See above for a brief commentary on how much (or rather little) regular masks help.
