Thread on testing & treatment research for COVID-19
- Thread starter dailybuck777
- Start date
You've got to love this board. You have people spinning their own little theories. Then other people using those theories to spin double theories and then getting all lathered up and angry about it.
Friend of mine graduated with a degree in biology, but wound up going into business rather than science. I asked her about Hydroxychloroquine and she was very skeptical. Her responses are bolded.
Me: How frustrating to listen to that entire Cuomo press conference and not one word about the experimental drug trials.
Her: It's way too early to report findings. They just started. Like realistically a vaccine is unlikely at the street level til late this year but more likely 2021. Clinical trials take MONTHS to actually do at the fastest pace.
Me: Yes but they are administering 14- and 28-day trials of hydroxychloroquine + Z-pak, and the first cycle should have concluded on Tuesday. It's already FDA-approved for malaria, lupus and arthritis, so this would be an off-label application that wouldn't take very long to get approved to treat coronavirus. Cuomo has said in each of the last two days that they are seeing encouraging anecdotal results but they have nothing official to announce at this time. Then he said nothing today.
Her: When a clinical trial ends..... they dont just call the press dude. The scientific protocol doesn't work like that. They have to spend the time analyzing the results. Processing them then it goes to a peer review process before it gets published to the world. It doesnt work like....ok trial over call the papers. Just bc it's a pandemic dent mean academic rigor goes out the window
Me: Yes but thousands of people are dying and they can use the "right to try" exception to go on hydroxychloroquine. At this point I'd take a bag of Skittles up my *** (h/t @Thorndike2012) rather than go on a ventilator. Anyway, more people were discharged from NY hospitals than went in over the last 24 hours, so something big is happening in there and I would expect word to get out at some point.
Her: Just bec researchers perform work doesnt give them right to release it just openly. For instance at most universities.....they own your research. If you develop a cure for cancer they own it. On projects I was on funded by the military, u cant just publish it. they own every binder and datasheet u made.
Her: My money is on "that drug combo" has given some anecdotally positiveresults. nothing more.
Me: That would probably be the smart money.
Her: It has zero specificity for virus treatment. At all.
Me: Well the whole world is in a scramble to stockpile as much of it as fast as possible.
Her: Malaria is an amoeba thousands of size of a virus. An amoeba is a single celled organism. Z pak is for bacteria. It'll help support u from secondary infection. Done. Book closed in my view
Me: *links article that says 65% of physicians would give hydroxychloroquine to own family to treat coronavirus*
Her: Don't trust the media
Me: Yes don't get me wrong, I don't trust the media for anything. Most of them are against hydroxychloroquine, for what it's worth.
Her: Just bc the hype says drs would give it, in what is a clinical setting, what is called "sympathetically" gives it no credence to its efficacy
We are better off searching thru already produced ANTIVIRALS like remsdovir
Me: They are experimenting with HCQ + remsdovir. HCQ alone has not been touted as effective. Needs to be paired with zinc or similar
Her: In my eyes.....the drug combo is equivalent to saying....ok we control elephants off our land with bullets. Now we have fleas. Let's shoot them with bullets. I spent 4 years on my phd in biology. I get this shit at the molecular level.
Her: Hence my cynicism. I know the process this takes. And I understand the nature of the microbes and how they differ at the molecular level
Her: It'd be nice to be wrong here lol.
Her: My optimism is just much lower than yours for this avenue
Me: At least you have some kind of scientific basis to support your positions on this. Most people are just screaming it won't work and blah blah blah
Her: Well ya. Malaria is a single celled animal. A virus is just naked pieces of RNA or DNA. Even the size difference between these two things is astronomical. Never mind mode of transmission. Life history of the organism u name it. Viruses are arguably not even living organisms
Me: I believe they were saying it is effective in helping blood cells carry more oxygen
Her: Possibly yes...but if ones lungs are physically blocked with goo...ain't gonna help. Hence feeding a sh*t ton of oxygen to ppl who are very sick... doesn't work much
Her: It's just a huge stretch for me
Me: How frustrating to listen to that entire Cuomo press conference and not one word about the experimental drug trials.
Her: It's way too early to report findings. They just started. Like realistically a vaccine is unlikely at the street level til late this year but more likely 2021. Clinical trials take MONTHS to actually do at the fastest pace.
Me: Yes but they are administering 14- and 28-day trials of hydroxychloroquine + Z-pak, and the first cycle should have concluded on Tuesday. It's already FDA-approved for malaria, lupus and arthritis, so this would be an off-label application that wouldn't take very long to get approved to treat coronavirus. Cuomo has said in each of the last two days that they are seeing encouraging anecdotal results but they have nothing official to announce at this time. Then he said nothing today.
Her: When a clinical trial ends..... they dont just call the press dude. The scientific protocol doesn't work like that. They have to spend the time analyzing the results. Processing them then it goes to a peer review process before it gets published to the world. It doesnt work like....ok trial over call the papers. Just bc it's a pandemic dent mean academic rigor goes out the window
Me: Yes but thousands of people are dying and they can use the "right to try" exception to go on hydroxychloroquine. At this point I'd take a bag of Skittles up my *** (h/t @Thorndike2012) rather than go on a ventilator. Anyway, more people were discharged from NY hospitals than went in over the last 24 hours, so something big is happening in there and I would expect word to get out at some point.
Her: Just bec researchers perform work doesnt give them right to release it just openly. For instance at most universities.....they own your research. If you develop a cure for cancer they own it. On projects I was on funded by the military, u cant just publish it. they own every binder and datasheet u made.
Her: My money is on "that drug combo" has given some anecdotally positiveresults. nothing more.
Me: That would probably be the smart money.
Her: It has zero specificity for virus treatment. At all.
Me: Well the whole world is in a scramble to stockpile as much of it as fast as possible.
Her: Malaria is an amoeba thousands of size of a virus. An amoeba is a single celled organism. Z pak is for bacteria. It'll help support u from secondary infection. Done. Book closed in my view
Me: *links article that says 65% of physicians would give hydroxychloroquine to own family to treat coronavirus*
Her: Don't trust the media
Me: Yes don't get me wrong, I don't trust the media for anything. Most of them are against hydroxychloroquine, for what it's worth.
Her: Just bc the hype says drs would give it, in what is a clinical setting, what is called "sympathetically" gives it no credence to its efficacy
We are better off searching thru already produced ANTIVIRALS like remsdovir
Me: They are experimenting with HCQ + remsdovir. HCQ alone has not been touted as effective. Needs to be paired with zinc or similar
Her: In my eyes.....the drug combo is equivalent to saying....ok we control elephants off our land with bullets. Now we have fleas. Let's shoot them with bullets. I spent 4 years on my phd in biology. I get this shit at the molecular level.
Her: Hence my cynicism. I know the process this takes. And I understand the nature of the microbes and how they differ at the molecular level
Her: It'd be nice to be wrong here lol.
Her: My optimism is just much lower than yours for this avenue
Me: At least you have some kind of scientific basis to support your positions on this. Most people are just screaming it won't work and blah blah blah
Her: Well ya. Malaria is a single celled animal. A virus is just naked pieces of RNA or DNA. Even the size difference between these two things is astronomical. Never mind mode of transmission. Life history of the organism u name it. Viruses are arguably not even living organisms
Me: I believe they were saying it is effective in helping blood cells carry more oxygen
Her: Possibly yes...but if ones lungs are physically blocked with goo...ain't gonna help. Hence feeding a sh*t ton of oxygen to ppl who are very sick... doesn't work much
Her: It's just a huge stretch for me
i see where you got the 446 number from, fwiw... if you click on "source" it will take you to a twitter page where you'll see a spreadsheet that shows the number for 4/9 at 683.
(editing to add: Maybe even bigger news: French President Macron visited the Marseille clinic today. The resistance to chloroquine in Paris may be about to crumble. French death rates (outside of Marseille) have been just awful. )
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A new report from the Marseille clinic today -- more "anecdotes."
1,061 C19 patients treated in March and early April, 5 died, 16 still hospitalized. 98% "cured" defined as virus at very low level or undetectable.
The report states that patients on ACE inhibitors and angio-tension-receptor blockers did significantly worse. Given this clinic's track record that is something to note.
(in English if you want to read it, and pretty understandable)
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ABSTRACT-v-2-GB.pdf
---------------------
A new report from the Marseille clinic today -- more "anecdotes."
1,061 C19 patients treated in March and early April, 5 died, 16 still hospitalized. 98% "cured" defined as virus at very low level or undetectable.
The report states that patients on ACE inhibitors and angio-tension-receptor blockers did significantly worse. Given this clinic's track record that is something to note.
(in English if you want to read it, and pretty understandable)
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ABSTRACT-v-2-GB.pdf
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They are making it up as they go along, understandably. I just read a report that some person was arrested in Chicago today because he/she was out on the lake and not yielding to social distancing. The result is that they are going to be hauled into the police office and, possibly, jail near dozens of other people. What have we accomplished here?
Your statement is an opinion and anecdotal. I'll wait for double blind clinical trials before I totally believe your claim.
The only additional thing I would ask her is this: Okay, say it doesn't work at all against the Coronavirus. Is there any chance it could help reduce the symptoms of the Coronavirus, especially the way it causes the lungs to fill with fluid? That is, could there still be benefits to patients taking it besides directly hindering the virus?
Nice reversal of fortunes for Boris.
Now tell us -- WHAT WAS HE ON??
Now tell us -- WHAT WAS HE ON??
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Hmm I kind of sympathize in that case. They're not going to prosecute those people; it's just a show arrest. In this case they're telling people the truth. If C19 gets loose on the south side of Chicago, the deaths would be in the tens of thousands.
Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot has done a series of very funny little video memes to convince people to stay home. Funniest thing I saw all day yesterday.
Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot has done a series of very funny little video memes to convince people to stay home. Funniest thing I saw all day yesterday.
I could not find details of his "treatment therapy" other than oxygen therapy and not being put on a ventilator.
At some point, you've got to use some common sense. If I am arrested, I ask them to show me the law and case law regarding not allowing people out of their homes and into common areas.
Yes but they've been using chloroquine on a widespread basis for only about 2 weeks and that's about when their deaths rate abruptly started going down instead of up. Go on to worldometers and look at the "outcome" graph of recovered cases vs. deaths.Something seems to have changed pretty dramatically.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/
Of course correlation is not causation but it's interesting.
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I agree. Or -- I have a license to run a business, what right does the state have to say my business must close because they define I'm not "life-sustaining?" Most of the public health measures being taken are probably unconstitutional. But maybe the time to debate it is later.
TBoyer and blion,
To your points it’s not scientific bureaucrats that are the issue it’s Bureaucratic Scientists that are the issue. Regarding the test kits, there are plenty of kits and people to collect the kits the bottleneck is the human interface at the receiving labs for harvesting the swabs to begin the automation of the RT qPCR.
To your points it’s not scientific bureaucrats that are the issue it’s Bureaucratic Scientists that are the issue. Regarding the test kits, there are plenty of kits and people to collect the kits the bottleneck is the human interface at the receiving labs for harvesting the swabs to begin the automation of the RT qPCR.
ChiTown,
Not sure where your friend got her PhD but Malaria is a protozoan more specifically a plasmodium parasite, and therefore unlike an amoeba it cannot live on its own and requires a host.
Not sure where your friend got her PhD but Malaria is a protozoan more specifically a plasmodium parasite, and therefore unlike an amoeba it cannot live on its own and requires a host.
Hehe i'm sure Fleet Street will find out. They'll bribe hospital personnel or hack cell phones if necessary but they'll find out.
How about HHS.gov.
"OASH issues this guidance authorizing licensed pharmacists to order and administer COVID-19 tests, including serology tests, that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has authorized."
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/authorizing-licensed-pharmacists-to-order-and-administer-covid-19-tests.pdf
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/authorizing-licensed-pharmacists-to-order-and-administer-covid-19-tests.pdf
Posobiec was simply among the first to spread the word on twitter.
Great now we will have idiots going tractor supply and taking horse doses of ivermectin.
Or... we keep it a secret while a few more thousand people die. These are hard decisions but the old rules don’t apply since this is uncharted territory
They keep it under lock at our Tractor Supply, but not because of Covid demand. Price ranges quite a bit from $4.99 a tube to $20+ per tube, and people have been switching out the expensive tube and putting it in the less expensive sleeve. Been happening about a year, and its a pain to grab an attendant to find the key. I buy for my horses, donkeys and goats 3-4 times a year, and have a supply in the farm refrig. If anybody wants to swing by, I'll be glad to lend you a sliver (its calibrated by body weight from 200 to 1500 lbs (some at 1200 lbs). The other 50% I'll give Crisco to. We'll see how you fair
When I had Mastiffs I was advised not to do the equine Ivermectin because it was made for a much larger dose than 200#. Said you could get a hot dose.
Here is a twitter account that tracks Hydroxychloroquine news. https://twitter.com/niro60487270
Because the French government has not authorized chloroquine use against C19 (only Marseille has been allowed to do its clinical trials), the Paris hospitals are probably only giving chloroquine as a last resort to critically ill people in the final throes of the disease. If that's true, outcomes would not be great.
Look at the French death counts the last two weeks -- whatever they're doing doesn't seem to be working, at least not outside of Marseille. Interesting that Macron made a visit to Raoult's clinic today -- maybe Macron is going to have a heart-to-heart with the Ministère des Affaires sociales et de la Santé. .
FC
This thread is getting so long it’s hard to check if this specific study has been mentioned:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...cine-might-protect-against-covid-19-1.4222110
Dr. Gallo is mentioned at the end of this article. He was on Bloomberg TV a couple days ago, where he stated he has an imminent announcement regarding repurposing an existing vaccine, but it’s still unclear (at least to me) whether he’s talking about the same vaccine as this article or something else. He implied his announcement would be within days. He also implied his announcement would be about something helpful, but would not be something that completely eliminates the dangers of COVID-19.
This thread is getting so long it’s hard to check if this specific study has been mentioned:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...cine-might-protect-against-covid-19-1.4222110
Dr. Gallo is mentioned at the end of this article. He was on Bloomberg TV a couple days ago, where he stated he has an imminent announcement regarding repurposing an existing vaccine, but it’s still unclear (at least to me) whether he’s talking about the same vaccine as this article or something else. He implied his announcement would be within days. He also implied his announcement would be about something helpful, but would not be something that completely eliminates the dangers of COVID-19.
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Here are a couple articles about antibody testing:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/n...l-means-to-get-people-back-to-work-2020-04-07
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0200403-i6wzmddt5zffpeqgk4xbwmkbmy-story.html
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/n...l-means-to-get-people-back-to-work-2020-04-07
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0200403-i6wzmddt5zffpeqgk4xbwmkbmy-story.html
An article about a few trials underway using various treatments:
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200409/chloroquine-zinc-tested-to-block-covid-infection
(The URL is misleading; the trials are not just chloroquine and zinc.)
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200409/chloroquine-zinc-tested-to-block-covid-infection
(The URL is misleading; the trials are not just chloroquine and zinc.)
Interesting. Some thought that the TB vacine may reduce C19 infection rates. That is one I never would have thought of.
The dam is really breaking. Fauci in a radio interview with a Philadelphia station was asked if he were a family doctor, would be prescribe chloroquine and he said yes. And he emphasized all doctors have the right to prescribe off-label because it's an approved drug.
It's not official, there will be no policy change at the CDC but Fauci's language has changed. No longer is he telling people to wait for controlled studies. And no longer is he saying chloroquine should only be used in hospitals.
Spain has been using chloroquine for about 2 weeks, and their deaths have dropped by two thirds even though cases are steady. Social distancing reduces cases but better treatment is reducing deaths -- seeing it in Italy and Spain.
I think very shortly we're going to be in a place where if you have a fever and low blood oxygen, the smart doctors are going to assume covid and prescribe HCQ to be taken at home.
No more waiting for virus tests and no more waiting for people to be on the brink of death. When we're there, death will plummet and this pandemic will take on a completely different feel. Sanofi announced yesterday they can triple HCQ production and hopefully other manufacturers will too.
(BTW a pulse ox can be had for $30-$50 -- every household should have one, along with thermometer and stethoscope.)
It's not official, there will be no policy change at the CDC but Fauci's language has changed. No longer is he telling people to wait for controlled studies. And no longer is he saying chloroquine should only be used in hospitals.
Spain has been using chloroquine for about 2 weeks, and their deaths have dropped by two thirds even though cases are steady. Social distancing reduces cases but better treatment is reducing deaths -- seeing it in Italy and Spain.
I think very shortly we're going to be in a place where if you have a fever and low blood oxygen, the smart doctors are going to assume covid and prescribe HCQ to be taken at home.
No more waiting for virus tests and no more waiting for people to be on the brink of death. When we're there, death will plummet and this pandemic will take on a completely different feel. Sanofi announced yesterday they can triple HCQ production and hopefully other manufacturers will too.
(BTW a pulse ox can be had for $30-$50 -- every household should have one, along with thermometer and stethoscope.)
