ADVERTISEMENT

Thread on testing & treatment research for COVID-19

I agree with many things you post Boyer, but do you really believe that this is the outcome we are headed for?

I of course have no idea, but you look at how we went from the 1st death in the country to 1000 deaths a day in one month, then 2000, and it's really just getting started in most of the country.... It's just so wildly infectious it is going to go everywhere people live in close proximity.

Singapore is one of the richest countries in the world, extremely good health system, extremely high level of government control of everything, and it's a freaking island and they have not been able to stop it. Keeps breaking out. The fact that asymptomatic people spread it is the killer, quite literally.

In the US it's going to be extremely hard to keep it out of low-income urban neighborhoods, elderly housing, nursing homes, any multifamily housing and especially institutions.

The deaths are definitely going to follow class lines, just like they have for every plague in history.

Those of us who can financially afford to shelter at home indefinitely -- we're as safe as we choose to be. Keep that door closed and stay home and you're safe, but how many people can afford to ride this out for 6-9 months or however long it takes?
 
Yeah I agree, reading the absurd coverage and commentary has convinced me that Trump is only slightly more clueless than a lot of people who claim to be experts. They haven't done their homework. And -- this drives me nuts -- what Trump actually said that day was not unreasonable. He said he had heard good things about this drug's potential and hoped it could be a game changer. Nothing more. Didn't tell people to take it, didn't say it was a miracle cure, nothing like that.

Re zinc, the MedCram doctor, Roger Seheult, did an excellent presentation I think about 2 weeks ago, maybe 2 1/2 weeks ago on the theoretical case for chloroquine/zinc based on in-vitro studies. Go back and watch the youtube if you're interested. Explains how chloroquine and zinc together could possibly prevent viral replication. But a zinc supplement may not be necessary -- most people have a pretty good supply of zinc if they eat a good diet with enough protein. Still a zinc supplement couldn't hurt.

This is a little odd, as pretty much everyone here has heard that hydroxychloroquine is most effective when combined with zinc.
 

Very cool but that one's a long way off since it's not an approved drug. They've done mice, but the hurdle from mice to humans -- I think it's like 1 out of 20 make that hurdle. Most things that work in mice don't work in humans -- we're just much more complicated. Now they have to do safety studies which takes several months at minimum, and then efficacy studies after that, which is more months. Development time would have to be comparable to the vaccines.
 
Last edited:
Waiting for confirmation on the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine is getting to be more than a little frustrating.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PSUPride1
My Stat professor at PSU stated on several occasions, "all data is anecdotal until you believe you have enough of it, then it's fact."

Hmmm...

Meanwhile, if I'm dying from this shit and the janitor thinks that shoving bags of skittles up my ass might help, here's money for the vending machine. Hurry!
Lol. My thoughts exactly
 
Remember that ventilator therapy for covid treatment is also anecdotal without double blind clinical trials.
Very well stated! It appears that the double blind may determine that the ventilator tears up the lungs of the very ill!
Meanwhile, if I'm dying from this shit and the janitor thinks that shoving bags of skittles up my ass might help, here's money for the vending machine. Hurry!
Thanks for the laugh! The Thorndike Skittles Therapy would be preferable to the ventilator for me! ;)
 
My Stat professor at PSU stated on several occasions, "all data is anecdotal until you believe you have enough of it, then it's fact."

Hmmm...

Meanwhile, if I'm dying from this shit and the janitor thinks that shoving bags of skittles up my ass might help, here's money for the vending machine. Hurry!

Great, now there's going to be a run on skittles!
 
  • Like
Reactions: pandaczar12
I don't know if HCL will prove effective or not, but I called this days ago when anecdotal evidence was coming in that it worked, that we would soon start seeing a run of articles that it didn't and those would be HCL standalone. The therapy is HCL, arithromyacin, zinc. The negative articles I have been able to read only mention HCL use, no combination with arithromyacin and/or zinc.
 
I of course have no idea, but you look at how we went from the 1st death in the country to 1000 deaths a day in one month, then 2000, and it's really just getting started in most of the country.... It's just so wildly infectious it is going to go everywhere people live in close proximity.

Singapore is one of the richest countries in the world, extremely good health system, extremely high level of government control of everything, and it's a freaking island and they have not been able to stop it. Keeps breaking out. The fact that asymptomatic people spread it is the killer, quite literally.

In the US it's going to be extremely hard to keep it out of low-income urban neighborhoods, elderly housing, nursing homes, any multifamily housing and especially institutions.

The deaths are definitely going to follow class lines, just like they have for every plague in history.

Those of us who can financially afford to shelter at home indefinitely -- we're as safe as we choose to be. Keep that door closed and stay home and you're safe, but how many people can afford to ride this out for 6-9 months or however long it takes?

I must ask, since when did the black plaque disseminate between rich & poor in the dark ages?

Plague do not discriminate societal or income-wise.

And, remeber that plaque in Egypt?? It struck down the generally 1st born of the very well-to-do based on WHO ate first and HOW the grain was stored sir. Scientists have given creedance to this biblical theory.
 
My Stat professor at PSU stated on several occasions, "all data is anecdotal until you believe you have enough of it, then it's fact."

Hmmm...

Meanwhile, if I'm dying from this shit and the janitor thinks that shoving bags of skittles up my ass might help, here's money for the vending machine. Hurry!

Intersting. What was his name?/
 

The important thing is that the numbers are down, but I seem to recall Dr. Fauci and Birx bracing us for 100,000-240,000 deaths “if we handle everything perfectly.”
 
(rant warning) It's the second week of April and I keep reading happy news stories about the CDC's chloroquine trials beginning ONLY NOW. That enrages me more than anything the tweeter-in-chief has ever said. When the history of this pandemic is written, are we going to be talking about the extra 50,000 Americans who died waiting for the wheels of scientific bureaucracy to turn?
 
My Stat professor at PSU stated on several occasions, "all data is anecdotal until you believe you have enough of it, then it's fact."

Hmmm...

Meanwhile, if I'm dying from this shit and the janitor thinks that shoving bags of skittles up my ass might help, here's money for the vending machine. Hurry!
Who was your stats professor at PSU??

Anecdotal evidence generally means evidence that was collected in a less than rigorous fashion. It generally doesn't mean the same thing as limited data (which I think is was your stats professor was getting at). For example, if while walking my dog I visually observe the grass on lawns looks greener on less trafficked streets than on heavily traveled ones, that is anecdotal evidence. I didn't really measure anything; I don't have a true control or experimental groups. Just some random observations.
 
Hehe you don't know me. I have three kids -- two engineers and a family physician. I won't tell you my belief system but I do think it's okay for atheists to pray for something good to happen -- not that it will change anything, it's just an expression of how we feel.

I'm sick to death of all these people (and I'm not saying you, I don't know you) who, as soon as Trump said something about a drug, suddenly became purists about the sanctity of randomized double-blinded, peer-reviewed, multi-site-around-the-world repeated trials.

Yes that's the gold standard. But 99% of what is medical textbooks is not backed by that gold standard.That gold standard doesn't take months, it doesn't take years, it takes DECADES. So it is of little relevance for treatment in this pandemic. It might be helpful for the next pandemic 20 or 40 years away.

If you actually read the ongoing discussions between scientists and doctors in forums & on Twitter (which is pretty incredible -- you can watch the scientific process going on in real time) you can see that the understanding of the disease and treatment strategies is growing, not by the day, but by the HOUR.

Very little of this new knowledge has anything to do with double blind studies. It's all based on sharing clinical experience (or, as Fauci calls it, anecdotes). For example the sea change in just the last 4-5 days on ICU treatment -- to realize this disease cannot be treated like every other viral pneumonia that's ever come down the pike.

Trying to pump people's lungs with ventilators just liquifies the damaged lung tissue and kills these patients -- who knew? Huge changes in protocols are being tried in the space of 12 hours -- without any randomized studies. ICU doctors are trying a whole range of medicines in non-standard (meaning untested) ways, trying to find combinations that work better.

When you have a disease that is killing 2,000 Americans a day, soon to be 5,000 and after that 10,000, the rules change. You accept more risk and uncertainty and you try to save people.

And in my opinion, there should be more discussion about whether randomized double-blind studies are even APPROPRIATE with a disease that is so deadly in such a short period of time. If you're testing pimple cream, the control group isn't going to die. If you're testing arthritis, and the drug works, you can give it to the control group and still help them.

In this case these trials are asking people who are struggling for breath to agree to a 50% chance that they get placebo (i.e. NO TREATMENT) for a disease that could kill them in about 12 hours. It is being reported that they're having trouble finding volunteers. Ya think???
I guess where we differ is that you think people should expect to not die from this. I don't have that expectation.
 
(rant warning) It's the second week of April and I keep reading happy news stories about the CDC's chloroquine trials beginning ONLY NOW. That enrages me more than anything the tweeter-in-chief has ever said. When the history of this pandemic is written, are we going to be talking about the extra 50,000 Americans who died waiting for the wheels of scientific bureaucracy to turn?
How frustrating to listen to that entire Cuomo press conference and not one word about the experimental drug trials.

With the number of patients being discharged from the hospitals, you would think reviews of Hydroxychloroquine would be going viral by now.
 
My Stat professor at PSU stated on several occasions, "all data is anecdotal until you believe you have enough of it, then it's fact."

Hmmm...

Meanwhile, if I'm dying from this shit and the janitor thinks that shoving bags of skittles up my ass might help, here's money for the vending machine. Hurry!
Fizzyskittles work better, just saying. But try to find them these days.
 
How frustrating to listen to that entire Cuomo press conference and not one word about the experimental drug trials.

With the number of patients being discharged from the hospitals, you would think reviews of Hydroxychloroquine would be going viral by now.

I agree, however the primary objective is to keep people at home. If they start touting a drug, or treatment is working, people may start to get sloppy.

The way the stock market reacted this week, something is going on behind the scenes.
 
The earliest chloroquine trial going in the US seems to be Dr. David Boulware at Minnesota. But three weeks in, his trial hasn't been able to recruit enough volunteers. Only 25% of target for the treatment trial.



Not clear why. Some say it's all about testing delays. The trial can only enroll people with a C19 diagnosis, which requires a test result. But the tests are still taking 5 days, and hospitals won't offer a test until someone has clear symptoms -- fever, dry cough. So by the time people are eligible to enroll in Boulware's trial, either they're over the hump and recovering, or their life is in danger and flipping a coin doesn't seem like an ideal treatment plan.

This is the problem with ignoring all evidence but randomized double-blind trials -- sometimes it's just not feasible or ethical to do them.
 
I agree, however the primary objective is to keep people at home. If they start touting a drug, or treatment is working, people may start to get sloppy.

The way the stock market reacted this week, something is going on behind the scenes.
I understand what you are saying but this smells of govt thinking they are smarter than everyone else...this is soviet style thinking that is clearly flawed and dangerous. As my father in law used to always say "what's wrong with the truth?" They either lied or didn't know. I suspect it was a little of both. I am OK with them not knowing; truly unprecedented times. But I am millions of other people are trying to make critical, perhaps life and death, decisions. I know better than the govt does for me and my family. I don't want the govt making those decisions for me when they don't know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bourbon n blues
Last week the Sermo survey reported that doctors in Spain were the most likely of any country to have prescribed chloroquine (72 percent)

https://public-cdn.sermo.com/covid1...ve-i-sermo-covid-19-global-analysis-final.pdf


Look at what has happened to daily death counts and recovery rates in Spain even though new cases are still at very high levels:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/
(Note today's death count is 446, which would be the lowest number since March 22)

Something good is going on in Spain with treatment. We know they're using chloroquine on a large scale. Hmmmm. Another "anecdote" to be ignored I guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CentexLion
How frustrating to listen to that entire Cuomo press conference and not one word about the experimental drug trials.

With the number of patients being discharged from the hospitals, you would think reviews of Hydroxychloroquine would be going viral by now.

It isn't fruitful enough for those that stand to make TRILLIONS off this pandemic. Mark my word.....next week, maybe late in the week, we will have a therapy that is new and that is pushed by the correct people.
 
Last week the Sermo survey reported that doctors in Spain were the most likely of any country to have prescribed chloroquine (72 percent)

https://public-cdn.sermo.com/covid1...ve-i-sermo-covid-19-global-analysis-final.pdf


Look at what has happened to daily death counts and recovery rates in Spain even though new cases are still at very high levels:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/
(Note today's death count is 446, which would be the lowest number since March 22)

Something good is going on in Spain with treatment. We know they're using chloroquine on a large scale. Hmmmm. Another "anecdote" to be ignored I guess.

According to your link 21% of US physicians have presribed HCQ. What more do you want done? Nobody knows what works and what does not. They are all flying by the seat of their pants because this is a new virus.
 
The earliest chloroquine trial going in the US seems to be Dr. David Boulware at Minnesota. But three weeks in, his trial hasn't been able to recruit enough volunteers. Only 25% of target for the treatment trial.



Not clear why. Some say it's all about testing delays. The trial can only enroll people with a C19 diagnosis, which requires a test result. But the tests are still taking 5 days, and hospitals won't offer a test until someone has clear symptoms -- fever, dry cough. So by the time people are eligible to enroll in Boulware's trial, either they're over the hump and recovering, or their life is in danger and flipping a coin doesn't seem like an ideal treatment plan.

This is the problem with ignoring all evidence but randomized double-blind trials -- sometimes it's just not feasible or ethical to do them.

that is why the French doctor didn't want to do trials. he said it was becoming evident to him and that it was not ethical to delay. he also pointed out the delay in RECRUITING for a trial is a big part of the time factor. it is correct that we will see we allowed people to die waiting for the scientific bureaucrats.

Trump needs to add another doctor to the daily reports and that is one who is executing and seeing results from immediate treatments.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ski
I don't know if HCL will prove effective or not, but I called this days ago when anecdotal evidence was coming in that it worked, that we would soon start seeing a run of articles that it didn't and those would be HCL standalone. The therapy is HCL, arithromyacin, zinc. The negative articles I have been able to read only mention HCL use, no combination with arithromyacin and/or zinc.

throw in the articles that said they tried it when the person had 1 hour to live and they didn't magically get better? seems like all the articles that say it works are about HCL (not just CL) with airthromyacin and zinc given at onset of symptons. the entire mechansim is not to kill the virus but stop the virus from taking over.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ski
I don't know about Soviet style but I too am troubled by the notion that government bureaucracy or experts would withhold information because they don't trust people to use it.

Like the initial advice on masks which was misleading if not downright wrong.

I'm very troubled by the fact that a lot of medical insiders are optimistic about chloroquine but won't say so publicly because they don't want to be seen as pro-Trump or a loose cannon or at odds with the CDC. Your professional reputation is everything in medicine, I get that.

I forget the name of the eminent Columbia University virologist who was part of the "wait till clinical trials" chorus on chloroquine -- but when he came down with C19 he got chloroquine as part of his treatment. During a post-recovery TV interview he was asked what drugs he received and tried really hard not to dissemble and not answer the question. That's a mentality that I find troubling.

Thing is, if you go to Lenox Hill Hospital on the upper East Side, you will almost certainly have access to #HCQ. If you go to some inner-city Medicaid hospital, or some small-town medical center in central Pa., I suspect you'll be more likely to hear, "CDC won't let us give you that" or "you have to have a positive test result but we don't have any more test kits available."

Only thing to do is stay home, stay safe, hope things improve.



I understand what you are saying but this smells of govt thinking they are smarter than everyone else...this is soviet style thinking that is clearly flawed and dangerous. As my father in law used to always say "what's wrong with the truth?" They either lied or didn't know. I suspect it was a little of both. I am OK with them not knowing; truly unprecedented times. But I am millions of other people are trying to make critical, perhaps life and death, decisions. I know better than the govt does for me and my family. I don't want the govt making those decisions for me when they don't know.
 

WUHAN, China—Chinese doctors who have for months treated coronavirus patients with chloroquine say there is no clear evidence the anti-malarial drug is effective against the deadly pathogen, raising questions about a remedy President Trump has touted as a potential cure.

One of them, however, saw some promise for Kaletra—an antiretroviral drug for HIV.

^^ The rest of the article requires a subscription.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TheGLOV

WUHAN, China—Chinese doctors who have for months treated coronavirus patients with chloroquine say there is no clear evidence the anti-malarial drug is effective against the deadly pathogen, raising questions about a remedy President Trump has touted as a potential cure.

One of them, however, saw some promise for Kaletra—an antiretroviral drug for HIV.

^^ The rest of the article requires a subscription.
Another article stating CLQ by itself doesn’t show improvement. Duh!!!!!!!!!
 

WUHAN, China—Chinese doctors who have for months treated coronavirus patients with chloroquine say there is no clear evidence the anti-malarial drug is effective against the deadly pathogen, raising questions about a remedy President Trump has touted as a potential cure.

One of them, however, saw some promise for Kaletra—an antiretroviral drug for HIV.

^^ The rest of the article requires a subscription.

Without seeing the rest of the article, I again wish they would qualify what they mean by "no clear evidence the anti-malarial drug is effective against the deadly pathogen." Does that mean that it provides no benefits at all to patients given it, or does it mean it is not effective against the virus, but may provide benefits for easing the patients' symptoms? I wish these articles would specify, as I don't trust any media in this situation not to have a political slant.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dailybuck777
But incredibly, NY discharged more people from hospitals than it admitted in the last 24 hour period. And ICU admissions way down. So maybe a combination of social distancing + better treatment.... If it continues, the deaths will trend down like in Italy and Spain.
Wonder how much of this is because of switching to CPAP + O2 instead of ventilators.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT