Thoughts on the Brooks/Amine match

Psalm 1 guy

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A couple things about that match I noticed. Aaron was pushing the pace for most of the match, which would account for his being tired in the third. I believe Amine had a strategy of interlocking fingers to slow down the pace. Here is what the NCAA Wrestling Rulebook says about interlocking fingers: Interlocking fingers shall be penalized when it occurs beyond a reasonable time as determined by the referee. Interlocking fingers with the opponent in the neutral position is a stalemate for the first offense. Subsequent offenses of interlocking fingers in the neutral position shall be called stalling. I think the official should have awarded a penalty point to whomever he felt was interlocking fingers the most. This would have cleaned up the match and opened things up a bit. As mentioned by others, Amine may have been playing possum about how tired he was during the match. Amine deserved the stall call he received and could have been hit once more. The stalling call against Aaron was horrible. It was that lazy "situational" stall call some (poor) officials just throw out there late in the third period. Even though Aaron was very tired at the time he was called for stalling, it seemed to mess with him mentally also. Aaron's escape to take it to overtime looked to be one of those "adrenaline dump" situations that took it all out of him. I did not have a good feeling that Aaron would pull it out in SV. Amine absolutely deserved the win, and wrestled a smart, strategic match. They are very close in talent, but I favor Aaron in a rematch.
 

FLMike

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Not sure anyone has discussed this but its not easy to beat a 25 yr old who is in his 7th year of college wrestling.
 

kingslayer_85

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my opinion is that no one should be surprised that Amine won that match , seems to me that for much of his career he has been under rated as much as a guy can be that finished 3rd at the NCAA three times. I remember how hard he wrestled Hall and always felt relieved that he was able to come out on top. That being said I feel good that Aaron will come out on top next time but Amine isn't one of those guys that you are beating 10 out of 10.
 

moug

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Amine is as underrated as anyone with his NCAA finishes. Probably because of the guys in his bracket. Brooks, Hall, Valencia. As good as he is I didn’t think Brooks would lose again until his senior freestyle resumes. Would still pick Brooks in the rematch. I think the very aggressive start (had me going holy 5hIt) cost him at the end.
 
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nitlion6

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As easily as Brooks scored the takedown with the underhook, why not push that attack. I get Amine is pretty darn good, but I believe Aaron could have scored relatively easily with multiple shots. Too many guys were allowed to hang around this weekend.
 

CSauertiegPSU

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I don’t know if Amine was intentionally grabbing the fingers, but the rule states that it should’ve eventually been called a double stall which would’ve been a point for Brooks at the time it happened as Amine picked up his stall call in the second
 

RandyL

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What is the rule on those "danger pts" when RBY and AB both had their opponents on their backs, but didnt have complete normal control ?
 

Psalm 1 guy

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What is the rule on those "danger pts" when RBY and AB both had their opponents on their backs, but didnt have complete normal control ?
From the NCAA Wrestling Rulebook: Art. 3. Neutral Danger Zone Takedown. When in the neutral position, the referee shall announce a neutral danger signal (NDS) anytime a wrestler exposes their shoulders to the mat at any angle less than 90 degrees (neutral danger zone). The danger zone utilizes near fall criteria outlined in Rule 4.5.1, but replaces 45 degrees with any angle less than 90 degrees. The NDS announcement shall occur anytime a wrestler is voluntarily or involuntarily in the neutral danger zone, beyond reaction time, and will continue until the wrestler is out of the danger zone or a takedown is awarded. Art. 4. Neutral Danger Signal. The NDS is a verbal announcement of the word "danger," followed by a verbal three count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. If the referee reaches the third count and the wrestler is still in the danger zone, the opposing wrestler is awarded a takedown.
 
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Petch

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A couple things about that match I noticed. Aaron was pushing the pace for most of the match, which would account for his being tired in the third. I believe Amine had a strategy of interlocking fingers to slow down the pace. Here is what the NCAA Wrestling Rulebook says about interlocking fingers: Interlocking fingers shall be penalized when it occurs beyond a reasonable time as determined by the referee. Interlocking fingers with the opponent in the neutral position is a stalemate for the first offense. Subsequent offenses of interlocking fingers in the neutral position shall be called stalling. I think the official should have awarded a penalty point to whomever he felt was interlocking fingers the most. This would have cleaned up the match and opened things up a bit. As mentioned by others, Amine may have been playing possum about how tired he was during the match. Amine deserved the stall call he received and could have been hit once more. The stalling call against Aaron was horrible. It was that lazy "situational" stall call some (poor) officials just throw out there late in the third period. Even though Aaron was very tired at the time he was called for stalling, it seemed to mess with him mentally also. Aaron's escape to take it to overtime looked to be one of those "adrenaline dump" situations that took it all out of him. I did not have a good feeling that Aaron would pull it out in SV. Amine absolutely deserved the win, and wrestled a smart, strategic match. They are very close in talent, but I favor Aaron in a rematch.
I agree that the stall call on Aaron was BS and it threw his concentration off for a split second. I think he was shocked that he got called for it after pushing Amine around for 2 1/2 periods. Amine was smart to attack right then.

I actually thought AB looked great (better, more offensive, and more confident than their first meeting) and hope he doesn’t change too much when he wrestles Amine again. Amine was a very gracious champion and I look forward to the likely rematch.
 

tullfan68

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A couple things about that match I noticed. Aaron was pushing the pace for most of the match, which would account for his being tired in the third. I believe Amine had a strategy of interlocking fingers to slow down the pace. Here is what the NCAA Wrestling Rulebook says about interlocking fingers: Interlocking fingers shall be penalized when it occurs beyond a reasonable time as determined by the referee. Interlocking fingers with the opponent in the neutral position is a stalemate for the first offense. Subsequent offenses of interlocking fingers in the neutral position shall be called stalling. I think the official should have awarded a penalty point to whomever he felt was interlocking fingers the most. This would have cleaned up the match and opened things up a bit. As mentioned by others, Amine may have been playing possum about how tired he was during the match. Amine deserved the stall call he received and could have been hit once more. The stalling call against Aaron was horrible. It was that lazy "situational" stall call some (poor) officials just throw out there late in the third period. Even though Aaron was very tired at the time he was called for stalling, it seemed to mess with him mentally also. Aaron's escape to take it to overtime looked to be one of those "adrenaline dump" situations that took it all out of him. I did not have a good feeling that Aaron would pull it out in SV. Amine absolutely deserved the win, and wrestled a smart, strategic match. They are very close in talent, but I favor Aaron in a r
 

tullfan68

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stalling amine did for about 5:30 Brooks one step back and called what crap amine should have had 3 or 4 called on him he did nothing the whole match till the last 30 seconds!but then Brooks should have had more than 1 td!!I hate when the PSU guys get one td then noithing,they have to have the match one before the 3rd period like leading by 5 or more!
 

MonkChowder

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stalling amine did for about 5:30 Brooks one step back and called what crap amine should have had 3 or 4 called on him he did nothing the whole match till the last 30 seconds!but then Brooks should have had more than 1 td!!I hate when the PSU guys get one td then noithing,they have to have the match one before the 3rd period like leading by 5 or more!
Agree completely. Don't leave it close for the ref to decide with stalling or a cheap takedown. Aaron looked like he could have taken him down several times, as hard as that actually might be. Trust your ability.
 

tomsc

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stalling amine did for about 5:30 Brooks one step back and called what crap amine should have had 3 or 4 called on him he did nothing the whole match till the last 30 seconds!but then Brooks should have had more than 1 td!!I hate when the PSU guys get one td then noithing,they have to have the match one before the 3rd period like leading by 5 or more!
I have to respectfully disagree with the implication that Brooks did nothing after getting his first TD. Maybe you were only referring to other PSU wrestlers, but in this post on Brooks himself, there seemed to be implication that that included Brooks too. It clearly was not the case with Brooks. Brooks kept up the aggressive pace for most of the match, and possibly wore himself out doing so. Brooks was not sitting on 1 TD.
 

Psugo823

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The Match Brooks needed to beat Amine, was actually wrestled by Max Dean against The Nebraska kid The very next Match.
 

CSauertiegPSU

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Lost in all of this is that Amine is really, really good and gets to wrestle the match as well. While Brooks should’ve probably closed it out late, the guy he lost to is really, really damn good. Can’t see a scenario where either one loses to the other by more than 1-2 points
 

Media Fan

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Not sure anyone has discussed this but its not easy to beat a 25 yr old who is in his 7th year of college wrestling.
There are a bunch of those in both the Michigan and Iowa lineups. Not sure how many seniors are in the Michigan lineup, but I believe there are 7 in the Iowa lineup.

ps: I had forgotten about Mekhi Lewis at ‘74; he will be a handful.
and look forward to the Steveson v. The Air Force hwt.. He looked real good; I keep reminding myself there is only 1 Steveson.
 

Media Fan

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Just counted and seems Mich. also has 7-8 Sri. In their lineup including 3 graduate seniors.
 

lockhavenlion3

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stalling amine did for about 5:30 Brooks one step back and called what crap amine should have had 3 or 4 called on him he did nothing the whole match till the last 30 seconds!but then Brooks should have had more than 1 td!!I hate when the PSU guys get one td then noithing,they have to have the match one before the 3rd period like leading by 5 or more!
i think you'll see more than one when they next meet. aaron will be on a search & destroy mission ;).
 
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RandyL

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From the NCAA Wrestling Rulebook: Art. 3. Neutral Danger Zone Takedown. When in the neutral position, the referee shall announce a neutral danger signal (NDS) anytime a wrestler exposes their shoulders to the mat at any angle less than 90 degrees (neutral danger zone). The danger zone utilizes near fall criteria outlined in Rule 4.5.1, but replaces 45 degrees with any angle less than 90 degrees. The NDS announcement shall occur anytime a wrestler is voluntarily or involuntarily in the neutral danger zone, beyond reaction time, and will continue until the wrestler is out of the danger zone or a takedown is awarded. Art. 4. Neutral Danger Signal. The NDS is a verbal announcement of the word "danger," followed by a verbal three count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. If the referee reaches the third count and the wrestler is still in the danger zone, the opposing wrestler is awarded a takedown.

Thanks
So - if RBY finishes off the td on normal criteria, he gets the td, but if he ends in a stalemate, he gets the td based on the danger zone - but he cant get pts for both; right?
 

jrod65

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Thanks
So - if RBY finishes off the td on normal criteria, he gets the td, but if he ends in a stalemate, he gets the td based on the danger zone - but he cant get pts for both; right?

That's correct, once the danger count hits 3, a td is awarded. Cannot get 2 points for both the count and a td.

You can get back points, however after the neutral danger 3 count and points are awarded. If the other wrestler's shoulders are still exposed(now have to be 45 degrees,not 90) a count will start for that.

Mark Hall scored 2 and 2 against Kemerer in that situation at the 2020 Bigs finals.
 

RoarLions1

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Thanks
So - if RBY finishes off the td on normal criteria, he gets the td, but if he ends in a stalemate, he gets the td based on the danger zone - but he cant get pts for both; right?
If, during a neutral danger" count, a wrestler gets a takedown based as you say on "normal criteria", the count stops and the takedown is awarded immediately. Oftentimes, the position the guys are in is such that one wrestler is holding the other to get the neutral danger count, and may pause before trying to improve his position and get a takedown the old-fashioned way.
 

RandyL

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Jrod and Roar -
1. Sorry for being so dense on this, but now you have me confused again.
If I guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, .. he CAN continue to improve his position and get a td "the normal" or old-fashioned way ?? in effect get 2 tds. Not at the same time, but successively. Is that right?

If a guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, altho he doesnt get back pts at the same time, he CAN then get back points, but only by improving his position to the 45 degree critera, right?

If a guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, but does not improve his position to the "normal or old-fashioned" td, can the other guy get an escape? I assume NOT?

I havent re-watched the two matches, but it seemed to me that RBY got a td awarded on the danger zone, but never proceeded to the old-fashioned td, as it ended in a stalemate or time expired.

Then in AB's match it looked like he had Amine in the danger zone long enough, but no td was awarded until AB finished it off the old-fashioned way?
 

nitlion6

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Jrod and Roar -
1. Sorry for being so dense on this, but now you have me confused again.
If I guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, .. he CAN continue to improve his position and get a td "the normal" or old-fashioned way ?? in effect get 2 tds. Not at the same time, but successively. Is that right?

If a guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, altho he doesnt get back pts at the same time, he CAN then get back points, but only by improving his position to the 45 degree critera, right?

If a guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, but does not improve his position to the "normal or old-fashioned" td, can the other guy get an escape? I assume NOT?

I havent re-watched the two matches, but it seemed to me that RBY got a td awarded on the danger zone, but never proceeded to the old-fashioned td, as it ended in a stalemate or time expired.

Then in AB's match it looked like he had Amine in the danger zone long enough, but no td was awarded until AB finished it off the old-fashioned way?
Of course an escape point is awarded if the defensive wrestler breaks free.
 

RoarLions1

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Jrod and Roar -
1. Sorry for being so dense on this, but now you have me confused again.
If I guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, .. he CAN continue to improve his position and get a td "the normal" or old-fashioned way ?? in effect get 2 tds. Not at the same time, but successively. Is that right? No, once any takedown is awarded, a second "consecutive" takedown can't be awarded. They must be separated by an escape.

If a guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, altho he doesnt get back pts at the same time, he CAN then get back points, but only by improving his position to the 45 degree critera, right? YES. Backpoint criteria is always the same. It's just that with neutral danger, the wrestler must wait until the takedown is awarded, assuming he's holding his opponent at <45.

If a guy is awarded a td based on the danger zone, but does not improve his position to the "normal or old-fashioned" td, can the other guy get an escape? I assume NOT? Yes, they can. The same control rules will apply. As soon as the offensive wrestling is deemed not in control, the escape will be awarded.

I havent re-watched the two matches, but it seemed to me that RBY got a td awarded on the danger zone, but never proceeded to the old-fashioned td, as it ended in a stalemate or time expired. There is no additional "old-fashioned" takedown in this case, see above.

Then in AB's match it looked like he had Amine in the danger zone long enough, but no td was awarded until AB finished it off the old-fashioned way? 90 degrees or less for three consecutive seconds. I don't remember Aaron having Myles in trouble for that long.
See above, in RED (hit "click to expand").
 
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KCLion

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There are a bunch of those in both the Michigan and Iowa lineups. Not sure how many seniors are in the Michigan lineup, but I believe there are 7 in the Iowa lineup.

ps: I had forgotten about Mekhi Lewis at ‘74; he will be a handful.
and look forward to the Steveson v. The Air Force hwt.. He looked real good; I keep reminding myself there is only 1 Steveson.
I wasn’t as impressed with the AF kid. His final against a very undersized OSU wrestler that didn’t have a great year (until the tourney) was very competitive. Steveson wil eat him up (major at least) if they wrestle.
 

Nashville_Hawkeye

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Not sure anyone has discussed this but its not easy to beat a 25 yr old who is in his 7th year of college wrestling.
My friend, if Brooks can show so much class in a VERY RARE defeat, you should try the same. It's not about beating an older wrestler, just ask Star who continues to have Kem's number. It's about losing a match that after assessing I don't think Brooks will lose again. Please don't make excuses; sadly I see that crap too often. You should be proud of Brooks' accomplishments thus far and encouraging him to go out with a better plan next time and right the ship. I know nothing about Brooks, but watching the class he showed in defeat I can guarantee you the last thing he wants is for someone from his fan base to make excuses for why he lost. He's one of your best ever; he doesn't need excuses.
 

RandyL

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Thanks fellas.
I guess I keep trying to think of the danger zone td as a kind of quasi-td.
But I guess a td is in fact ... a td.
 
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Wilco43

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Somebody posted just after the match that it looked like AB was dazed after they both shot low at the same time. I haven't watched it again but I can't recall AB ever ending a match like that. Anybody else?
 

nitlion6

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I wasn’t as impressed with the AF kid. His final against a very undersized OSU wrestler that didn’t have a great year (until the tourney) was very competitive. Steveson wil eat him up (major at least) if they wrestle.
The OSU kid hit a 4 or 6 point toss at the beginning of the match, after that it was an ass kicking.

Yes, you are correct though. Steveson will eat the AF kids lunch, kick sand in his face and take his meal money. All in the first three minutes.
 

District four

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Amine is as underrated as anyone with his NCAA finishes. Probably because of the guys in his bracket. Brooks, Hall, Valencia. As good as he is I didn’t think Brooks would lose again until his senior freestyle resumes. Would still pick Brooks in the rematch. I think the very aggressive start (had me going holy 5hIt) cost him at the end.
I thought the same thing when he started ratcheting up those undercooks he was really pushing amine around I think he could have scored a few takedowns off of those hooks
 

District four

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My friend, if Brooks can show so much class in a VERY RARE defeat, you should try the same. It's not about beating an older wrestler, just ask Star who continues to have Kem's number. It's about losing a match that after assessing I don't think Brooks will lose again. Please don't make excuses; sadly I see that crap too often. You should be proud of Brooks' accomplishments thus far and encouraging him to go out with a better plan next time and right the ship. I know nothing about Brooks, but watching the class he showed in defeat I can guarantee you the last thing he wants is for someone from his fan base to make excuses for why he lost. He's one of your best ever; he doesn't need excuses.
Well said