The P-51 Mustang! Comments welcome.
- Thread starter TheGLOV
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She was sexy. One of my all-time favs. But my Schatzi can suck a soccer ball through a garden hose....
It’s amazing all of the technology the Germans developed during WWII. Had they focused on a few such as the rockets and the Messerschmidt, who knows where the war would have played out?
They were ahead in rocket tech for sure but the US had a jet prototype in the works so I don’t think that would be decisive.
WW II was about intelligence, technology, logistics, populations. Germany had a lot of technology but they had no chance to win the war, since the Allies were superior in all those things, thank goodness.
Technological advantages were often negated due to production issues. You can have the best weapons and still lose if your factories are bombed into rubble and your opponent is producing more weapons than you (even if they are inferior). WW2 is a fascinating study when it comes to the roles that industrial capacity and intelligence played.
I hear you. I’ve seen and read that Hitler’s focus on too much tech compounded Germany’s resource disadvantage. It’s easy to see in hindsight, but they had some pretty amazing tech that if focused on May have added time and even treaty negotiation leverage to the war.
I found #2 to be a very interesting point. Same occurred in the Pacific after Midway. Attrition of pilots...
. Towards the end of WWII, Mustang pilots found German fighter pilots to be untrained and lower quality pilots than at the beginning of the war. That’s because the USAAF and the RAF rotated their pilots, occasionally sending their best home to train new pilots – the Germans never took their best pilots off the front line.
Something to consider. U.S. technical knowledge in the war was more focused on the means of production. German technology went heavily into the product. Germany's aircraft industry was a craft industry
Germany had a jet fighter in use and it was effective, just too few too late.
I went to see the Collings foundation display last month. They travel all over and I've seen their planes several times. they are, a B-17, a B-24,a B-25 and a P51. The B25 didn't make this trip. My grandson attends an aviation maintenance school and they had a private showing of the aircraft before opening to the general public. That was my first ever close up to the P51 (two seater trainer version). A ride was about $2000 and it was prepping for the flight. There is no comparable sound to that Rolls Royce Merlin engine.
All of the aircraft experience about 8 maintenance man hours per flight hour.
All of the aircraft experience about 8 maintenance man hours per flight hour.
Hey GLOV, Off topic, but I need to know if you are in the fantasy baseball league again. I sent an email though the Yahoo Fantasy platform. Please confirm. Thanks.
A main factor contributing to German defeat, as well as Japanese and Italian, was lack of oil. Watch the following. Also, German production peaked in 1945 and lack of oil prevented training for pilots.
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Very true, something many people do not realize, the typical German infantryman walked a lot and they relied a lot upon horses to move equipment. A military that created the first jet and relied on horses, think about that.
On Columbus Day a few years ago, I heard propeller noises, looked up and saw a P-51 and B-24 flying over my house. Too bad I didn't get a picture.
After several scientists from the Manhattan project inspected their nuclear plants they estimated that the Germans were between 2 maybe 3 years away from developing a functional atomic bomb. Crazy.
Yes. Send again just in case and repost here when you do.
Germany was fighting on way too many fronts and their supply lines were way too thin. Also, the U.S. providing supplies to both England and Russia was slowly bleeding German resources dry. When Hitler refused to listen to his Generals the war was essentially over.
Italy’s blundering in the Balkans delayed Germany’s timeline for Barbarossa and most likely cost them from capturing Moscow. Italy was more a hinderence than an ally for them.
It wasn't Italian blundering that delayed the timeline for Barbarossa, although that is part of the some narratives on the timeline of the war. Historians will tell you that the weather delayed the assault. They simply could not go sooner because the spring season was ruined by rain. In that vein, read about Fritz Todt, who told Hitler In August 1941 that the Barbarossa Offensive had already failed and he should negotiate with the Soviets.
In other respects, Italy probably was more of a hindrance to Germany, mainly in that they required the much needed oil.
Also, I wrote above that German productivity peaked in 1945. That was a typographical error and it had peaked one year earlier, 1944. Sorry
In other respects, Italy probably was more of a hindrance to Germany, mainly in that they required the much needed oil.
Also, I wrote above that German productivity peaked in 1945. That was a typographical error and it had peaked one year earlier, 1944. Sorry
Many years ago (at the airport I used to fly out of) a private airplane landed that had the corkscrew black & white paint scheme on the spinner. It was an old ME-109 pilot who was now touring the US by air along with his wife. Of course we talked to him for quite awhile - the bottom line was that once they started going up against the P-51, they knew their days were numbered. He was just a regular German Air-Force guy that was drafted into the fight. He said maybe if the German jet program had been developed a year earlier, things may have been different - same outcome of the war, just probably prolonged.
Read the book "A Higher Call". Most of the book is based on the life of a German Pilot who started off flying a Gf 109 (IIRC) in North Africa. He ends the war protecting the fatherland in an Me 262. He said that they, Germany, could not machine the metals the way they were needed to take the stress for the jet engines. As such, shortly after their introduction, they stopped changing speeds while in dog fights. They got in, fired and got out, because the engine couldn't handle the stress of acceleration. He thought this was due to allied bombing plus lack of great raw materials. Some horrific stories as the pilot sat on the fuel tanks in the 262. Most carried side arms so they could shoot themselves in the head rather than burn to death.
I've stated this before on this board. A guy hired me out of college who was the lead navigator for the bloody 100th at the end of WW2. He started as a waist gunner and went to school to be the lead Nav. He directed several 100+ B17 raids at the end of the war.
One day, they got an assignment to bomb something with only 4 B-17s. They thought it was weird. Nearing their targets, the intercom cracked with the news that there were two enemy fighters directly below their little V formation of B-17s. By the time the gunners readied their weapons, the two fighters went strait up through their formation and toasted the right wing man. As they got above the formation, they did wing overs to take another shot. At that point, several US fighters came out of the clouds. Via a lucky shot, one of the US fighters smoked one of the jet engines on a 262. He said the two 262s realized it was a trap and hit the afterburners/gas (not sure they had afterburners at the time). He said the two 262's were gone in a tenth of a second while the US fighters seemed to not even be moving. It was clear the four B17s were "bait" to get the new 262's out and fall into a trap. They B17's dumped their bombs and flew home. He said not a word was spoken as they all thought they were dead men because they had never seen or experienced anything like that. They never saw a plane attack strait up while accelerating. They never saw a plane that fast. They had nothing to defend against it. The only thing that saved them was the Germans just couldn't get them into production at this point.
BTW, his view was that the Germans were always looking to leapfrog technology rather than evolve it. The P-51 was a great prop based fighter. There Germans did little to improve the 109 and put all of their money into the 262.
it is a similar story with Tanks. The allies chose to have smaller, more efficient tanks that they could mass produce. The germans called them "Tommy cookers" because they burned so easily after being hit with an anti-tank weapon. Germans simply could not get their superior tanks into battle and fuel them over time.
I've stated this before on this board. A guy hired me out of college who was the lead navigator for the bloody 100th at the end of WW2. He started as a waist gunner and went to school to be the lead Nav. He directed several 100+ B17 raids at the end of the war.
One day, they got an assignment to bomb something with only 4 B-17s. They thought it was weird. Nearing their targets, the intercom cracked with the news that there were two enemy fighters directly below their little V formation of B-17s. By the time the gunners readied their weapons, the two fighters went strait up through their formation and toasted the right wing man. As they got above the formation, they did wing overs to take another shot. At that point, several US fighters came out of the clouds. Via a lucky shot, one of the US fighters smoked one of the jet engines on a 262. He said the two 262s realized it was a trap and hit the afterburners/gas (not sure they had afterburners at the time). He said the two 262's were gone in a tenth of a second while the US fighters seemed to not even be moving. It was clear the four B17s were "bait" to get the new 262's out and fall into a trap. They B17's dumped their bombs and flew home. He said not a word was spoken as they all thought they were dead men because they had never seen or experienced anything like that. They never saw a plane attack strait up while accelerating. They never saw a plane that fast. They had nothing to defend against it. The only thing that saved them was the Germans just couldn't get them into production at this point.
BTW, his view was that the Germans were always looking to leapfrog technology rather than evolve it. The P-51 was a great prop based fighter. There Germans did little to improve the 109 and put all of their money into the 262.
it is a similar story with Tanks. The allies chose to have smaller, more efficient tanks that they could mass produce. The germans called them "Tommy cookers" because they burned so easily after being hit with an anti-tank weapon. Germans simply could not get their superior tanks into battle and fuel them over time.
Since I grew up during the 2nd. WW. The Musting and P-38 Lightning were my favorite planes.
My grandfather died in 1995 so I'm going to tell this story to the best of my ability. My great uncle (grandfathers brother) fought with the Italian 8th Army on the Russian front. He was captured in 1943 and died 3 years later in a work camp. If my memory serves me right my grandfather said he died of starvation while working on a railroad. He wrote my grandfather twice and said that when the weather got below zero hand grenades did not detonate, machine guns seized/jammed and motorized vehicles were non-functional. During the battle of Stalingrad the Italian army got much criticism for not holding the line but rarely if ever do you hear that the Romanian and Hungarian Army to the left and right of the Italian 8th army literally put up no resistance and surrendered to the advancing Russian Army. During that battle the Italian Army engaged the best Russian fighters, best tanks and overwhelming Russian air support without any German help and still they held the Russian Army at bay for 11 days. During these 11 days the Italian army suffered 21,000 casualties, that's 79 dead soldiers per hour. If the benchmark is to compare the Italian Army to the German Army, the Germans were professional soldiers and profoundly better fighters. To say that the Italians were not loyal and did not fight is not true. Keep in mind that for a country the size of Florida they lost around 500,000 soldiers in WWII.
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Interesting...had never heard that.
Much of the problem with the reputation of the Italian Army was from North Africa. Mussolini wan't to take much of North Africa. Perhaps he wanted to be more like Hitler. But his troops and equipment were a mess. The Germans had to come in and bail them out but were distracted with the Eastern Front. The Allies ended up fighting factions of the Italian Army, French Nazis and German Nazis. And, when the allies went into Italy, the Italians pretty much folded and it was the US/GB against Nazis.
Going into the war we had a modern (for the time) navy and an undersized, undertrained, and underequipped Army. Our fighter aircraft were for the most part years behind both of our major enemies. The development AND production of more advanced weapons that took place over the next four years is nothing short of amazing.
Always amazed at how loud they are. Imagine the terror of hearing hundreds of those over your city about to drop their payload.
Agree...but it also helped that we did this research in the USA without bombing runs and a massive drain on human resources. Have to also ad an unlimited supply of natural resources. If one really studies WW2, IMHO, the vast resources of the USA and the Soviet Union (along with the US's logistical genius, see the red ball express for example) won the war.
Agree. No wonder so many have hearing problems. The Nazi's, for example, had these noises that came from Stuka bombers. And while it made them easier to find in the sky, it was great in causing fear to their enemies. Same is true of the Russian Katusha Rockets. So one wonders how much of these loud noises were planned and how many were simply happenstance.
Those P-51 stats are interesting. As an old Navy pilot who flew in Vietnam I'll give you an interesting stat. Our leading P-51 ace had 26 kills. Erich Hartman,the German ace had 352. Also the Spitfire was better in a dogfight than the P-51.
The German new weapons (rockets, jets etc) were called wunder waffen. My mother lived in Padova during the German occupation. She said that as the Germans were retreating towards the end they were shouting at the Italians “non e finito.” Means it is not over, a reference to the wunder waffen.
That was the rub on Hitler: he allowed German technology investments to be spread across too many projects. The Mouse Tank was an example. One might also argue the rocket was too, though that really paid dividends for the US after the war and Von Braun’s capture.
In the end, it may not have mattered as posters have pointed out. It was a raw resources and manufacturing wat.
Pretty much nails it. Explains why we are hell bent on controlling world oil now.
I got curious about wartime production and looked at something that I know about- destroyers. In the late 1930s the US was designing the next class of destroyers- the Fletcher class. 2500 tons and 376 feet long, they were bigger and more heavily armed than their predecessors, and DURING the war the US built 70 of them and 58 of their successor class (the Greaves) . This on top of new carriers, battleships, cruisers, liberty ships, tankers, etc.
Add in the planes, tanks, guns, and ammunition produced in the same time period and it's really pretty staggering.
Add in the planes, tanks, guns, and ammunition produced in the same time period and it's really pretty staggering.
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