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The debate is back....Brady vs Belichick...who made who?

The Spin Meister

The Spin Meister

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An altered state
Last night’s game was amazing. Played in Buffalo with winds over 50 MPH. Cold. Light snow. So the Patriots win by throwing only three times.....two completions, one being a screen pass for seven yards. Lowest attempts since 1974.....by the Bills.

Now the Patriots are in first and a favorite to be in the Super Bowl. To play against.......maybe Brady and the Bucs?

Belichick is doing it with a rookies QB. And no super stars. And doing his usual stoic fashion. Could it be that the Patriots are on their way to another huge batch of Lombardi Trophies with their new young quarterback?

So the debate will rage on. Is Brady the GQOATnthat made Belichick look good? Or did Belichick’s style and system make Brady so good?

Great article even if you hate Bad Bill......he even smiled once!

www.wsj.com

With Just Three Passes in a Win, Bill Belichick Paints a Masterpiece

On a windy night, the Patriots beat the Bills while passing the ball only three times—the fewest since 1974. It was a game that revealed the continued brilliance of the all-time great coach.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
 
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The Spin Meister said:
Last night’s game was amazing. Played in Buffalo with winds over 50 MPH. Cold. Light snow. So the Patriots win by throwing only three times.....two completions, one being a screen pass for seven yards. Lowest attempts since 1974.....by the Bills.

Now the Patriots are in first and a favorite to be in the Super Bowl. To play against.......maybe Brady and the Bucs?

Belichick is doing it with a rookies QB. And no super stars. And doing his usual stoic fashion. Could it be that the Patriots are on their way to another huge batch of Lombardi Trophies with their new young quarterback?

So the debate will rage on. Is Brady the GQOATnthat made Belichick look good? Or did Belichick’s style and system make Brady so good?

Great article even if you hate Bad Bill......he even smiled once!

www.wsj.com

With Just Three Passes in a Win, Bill Belichick Paints a Masterpiece

On a windy night, the Patriots beat the Bills while passing the ball only three times—the fewest since 1974. It was a game that revealed the continued brilliance of the all-time great coach.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
Click to expand...

Admittedly, I didn't read the article. But wasn't this debate ended last year? In their first year apart, Brady won the Super Bowl and Belichik didn't even make the playoffs. Case closed IMHO.
 
The Spin Meister said:
Last night’s game was amazing. Played in Buffalo with winds over 50 MPH. Cold. Light snow. So the Patriots win by throwing only three times.....two completions, one being a screen pass for seven yards. Lowest attempts since 1974.....by the Bills.

Now the Patriots are in first and a favorite to be in the Super Bowl. To play against.......maybe Brady and the Bucs?

Belichick is doing it with a rookies QB. And no super stars. And doing his usual stoic fashion. Could it be that the Patriots are on their way to another huge batch of Lombardi Trophies with their new young quarterback?

So the debate will rage on. Is Brady the GQOATnthat made Belichick look good? Or did Belichick’s style and system make Brady so good?

Great article even if you hate Bad Bill......he even smiled once!

www.wsj.com

With Just Three Passes in a Win, Bill Belichick Paints a Masterpiece

On a windy night, the Patriots beat the Bills while passing the ball only three times—the fewest since 1974. It was a game that revealed the continued brilliance of the all-time great coach.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
Click to expand...
Both are great! Great coach football genius plus great QB throughout history = hall of fame. No matter how good the coach is though you need really good players to win at the highest level. Football genius coupled with GOAT. Both helped each other.
 
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SRURock24 said:
Both are great! Great coach football genius plus great QB throughout history = hall of fame. No matter how good the coach is though you need really good players to win at the highest level. Football genius coupled with GOAT. Both helped each other.
Click to expand...
Except at Happy Valley where everything is Franklin’s fault
 
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Madsol said:
Admittedly, I didn't read the article. But wasn't this debate ended last year? In their first year apart, Brady won the Super Bowl and Belichik didn't even make the playoffs. Case closed IMHO.
Click to expand...
Well, that’s the point. The debate is back on. Brady went to Tampa who then upgraded by gett a healthy Gronkowski out of retirement, signed Antonio Brown and actually made him behave, and a couple other upgrades. Also has a pretty good receiver/wideout in Chris Godwin and Fournette running the ball

Sour Puss Bill has a rookie QB, no super stars, and is one of only three teams with nine wins. And he just won a game against one of the preseason picks, at their hostile stadium, in very bad playing conditions and did so with a very unique scheme.

So looks like Billy may be back as the Beast to Beat for the foreseeable future.
 
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The Spin Meister said:
Well, that’s the point. The debate is back on. Brady went to Tampa who then upgraded by gett a healthy Gronkowski out of retirement, signed Antonio Brown and actually made him behave, and a couple other upgrades. Also has a pretty good receiver/wideout in Chris Godwin and Fournette running the ball

Sour Puss Bill has a rookie QB, no super stars, and is one of only three teams with nine wins. And he just won a game against one of the preseason picks, at their hostile stadium, in very bad playing conditions and did so with a very unique scheme.

So looks like Billy may be back as the Beast to Beat for the foreseeable future.
Click to expand...
Belicheck obviously saw the success ILL had against a defense designed to stop the spread, pass, and RPO.
 
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Let’s check in on Matt Cassel and some others that could not succeed despite experiencing BB as a coach.

It is clear they made themselves and both are great. TB proved his point and BB is proving his. Along the way, they may have made each other a little greater.
 
Madsol said:
Admittedly, I didn't read the article. But wasn't this debate ended last year? In their first year apart, Brady won the Super Bowl and Belichik didn't even make the playoffs. Case closed IMHO.
Click to expand...

Brady left because the Pats had to rebuild. With or without him they weren't winning the SB.

Brady pulled a 'Take my talents to South beach' and went to a team stacked with talent.

Hardly the end of the debate.

LdN
 
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It was a case of a very good coach and a very good player making each other the greatest of all time! They did so well together that when they separated they learns so much that they improved their specific focus.
 
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razpsu said:
It was a case of a very good coach and a very good player making each other the greatest of all time! They did so well together that when they separated they learns so much that they improved their specific focus.
Click to expand...
This x 100. They are both all-time greats and, despite Belichick/Brady fatigue, I'd love to see a Patriots v Bucs Super Bowl. Time will tell but it certainly is a possibility.
 
Brady got the liberty of 1) being a QB who 2) picked his destination that 3) was loaded with offensive talent and 4) had a very solid defense.

Bill got the liberty of 1) multiple opt outs 2) replacing THE QB, which some never do 3) starting Cam Newton.

Brady is great, but had he played for that NE squad Bill had last year, he wasn't winning a SB.
 
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LionDeNittany said:
Brady left because the Pats had to rebuild. With or without him they weren't winning the SB.

Brady pulled a 'Take my talents to South beach' and went to a team stacked with talent.

Hardly the end of the debate.

LdN
Click to expand...

Tampa was 7-9 the year before Brady got there. So I guess the team stacked with talent stunk.
 
The young grumpy lobster boat captain took a ragtag group of mainly bad to mediocre Browns players when he was hired in Cleveland and eventually got them to the playoffs in 1994. He also knew how to hire assistant coaches such as Nick Sabin and Kirk Ferentz. So a lot of the Patriots success IMO was Belichick.
 
LionDeNittany said:
Not sure if you noticed but Brady joined the team with Gronk and Antonio Brown.

Also the QB was Winston.

To imply the Bucs roster isnt loaded with talent is laughable.

LdN
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess it was Brown and his 8 games played, 45 catches and 4 TDs in 2020 that put Tampa over the top.

I'm not even a huge Brady fan. But your minimizing of his impact is silly. You must be a frustrated Steeler fan.
 
Madsol said:
Yeah, I guess it was Brown and his 8 games played, 45 catches and 4 TDs in 2020 that put Tampa over the top.

I'm not even a huge Brady fan. But your minimizing of his impact is silly. You must be a frustrated Steeler fan.
Click to expand...

I am not minimizing his impact at all.
The comparison is LeBron joining the Heat. He was clearly the best player in the NBA but it was the surrounding talent that he needed for the ring.

The Pats weren't winning the SB in 2020 with or without Brady.

He went to a team with the talent to win.

That does not mean he is a better player than Bill is a coach, which is what you asserted.

Bill could be Jesus himself and Brady could have teversed his age 10 years and the Pats still werent winning in 2020.

LdN
 
LionDeNittany said:
I am not minimizing his impact at all.
The comparison is LeBron joining the Heat. He was clearly the best player in the NBA but it was the surrounding talent that he needed for the ring.

The Pats weren't winning the SB in 2020 with or without Brady.

He went to a team with the talent to win.

That does not mean he is a better player than Bill is a coach, which is what you asserted.

Bill could be Jesus himself and Brady could have teversed his age 10 years and the Pats still werent winning in 2020.

LdN
Click to expand...

I'm of the opinion that Brady is a better player than Belichik is a coach. You aren't. Guess what? Neither of us are right and neither are wrong. Cause it's an opinion.
 
In the world of college and pro football as it is played today, you need a good (at minimum) QB to win.

Even a great coach, and I think Belichick is one, has a hard time winning without a good QB.

A great QB can make even an OK coach great.

But even a great coach can not win consistently without a good QB.

On the other hand, a great coach designs a system and assembles players to bring the best out of a good QB...or prod him along in the direction of greatness.

Bottom line: I think Belichick is a great coach, but even he would not have won all those championships without a great QB...and Brady is arguably the greatest at the pro level.

At the end of the day, there are few head coaches with the ability to turn average into good or good into great.

Lombardi was one of the few...and the greatest. Belichick is no Lombardi. Then again, nobody is.
 
The Spin Meister said:
Last night’s game was amazing. Played in Buffalo with winds over 50 MPH. Cold. Light snow. So the Patriots win by throwing only three times.....two completions, one being a screen pass for seven yards. Lowest attempts since 1974.....by the Bills.

Now the Patriots are in first and a favorite to be in the Super Bowl. To play against.......maybe Brady and the Bucs?

Belichick is doing it with a rookies QB. And no super stars. And doing his usual stoic fashion. Could it be that the Patriots are on their way to another huge batch of Lombardi Trophies with their new young quarterback?

So the debate will rage on. Is Brady the GQOATnthat made Belichick look good? Or did Belichick’s style and system make Brady so good?

Great article even if you hate Bad Bill......he even smiled once!

www.wsj.com

With Just Three Passes in a Win, Bill Belichick Paints a Masterpiece

On a windy night, the Patriots beat the Bills while passing the ball only three times—the fewest since 1974. It was a game that revealed the continued brilliance of the all-time great coach.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
Click to expand...
They talked during the game or pre-game last night about the $160 mm spending spree the Patriots went on in the off-season, with a quote from Bill about having better players this year. So he looks like a great coach when he's got better personnel. He's got better players because he relinquished some of his power in picking players as I understand it because he generally sucks as a GM, leading to last year's roster.
 
Jerry said:
In the world of college and pro football as it is played today, you need a good (at minimum) QB to win.

Even a great coach, and I think Belichick is one, has a hard time winning without a good QB.

A great QB can make even an OK coach great.

But even a great coach can not win consistently without a good QB.

On the other hand, a great coach designs a system and assembles players to bring the best out of a good QB...or prod him along in the direction of greatness.

Bottom line: I think Belichick is a great coach, but even he would not have won all those championships without a great QB...and Brady is arguably the greatest at the pro level.

At the end of the day, there are few head coaches with the ability to turn average into good or good into great.

Lombardi was one of the few...and the greatest. Belichick is no Lombardi. Then again, nobody is.
Click to expand...
Ok, so put P Manning on the Patriots instead of Brady. Or Montana, Marino, Rogers, or several other top QBs and how many Lombardies do they get with Belichick? Put Brady on the Steelers with Cowher or Tomlin, or on Eagles the last decade, or on the Giants under Percell.......does he win six with them as coach?

Theye were an amazing match. Few QBs would have embraced Belichick’s strange style and behavior. But few coaches would have got out of Brady what Billy did.
 
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IANit said:
They talked during the game or pre-game last night about the $160 mm spending spree the Patriots went on in the off-season, with a quote from Bill about having better players this year. So he looks like a great coach when he's got better personnel. He's got better players because he relinquished some of his power in picking players as I understand it because he generally sucks as a GM, leading to last year's roster.
Click to expand...
If they had that much to spend in the cap era it shows some serious over spending in previous years.
 
The Spin Meister said:
Ok, so put P Manning on the Patriots instead of Brady. Or Montana, Marino, Rogers, or several other top QBs and how many Lombardies do they get with Belichick? Put Brady on the Steelers with Cowher or Tomlin, or on Eagles the last decade, or on the Giants under Percell.......does he win six with them as coach?

Theye were an amazing match. Few QBs would have embraced Belichick’s strange style and behavior. But few coaches would have got out of Brady what Billy did.
Click to expand...
Huh?

there are great matches in history that who knows if this or that. Noll and Bradshaw Landry and staubach Starr and Lombardo etc.

Belicheck and Brady are the best of them
 
Madsol said:
Admittedly, I didn't read the article. But wasn't this debate ended last year? In their first year apart, Brady won the Super Bowl and Belichik didn't even make the playoffs. Case closed IMHO.
Click to expand...
Hardly. Brady walked into perhaps the most talented roster in the NFL with tbe Pats in (probably still in) a rebuild. Brady is the GOAT at QB. But BB is also the GOAT as HC. BillB showed his genius again last night.
 
LionDeNittany said:
Brady left because the Pats had to rebuild. With or without him they weren't winning the SB.

Brady pulled a 'Take my talents to South beach' and went to a team stacked with talent.

Hardly the end of the debate.

LdN
Click to expand...
So when Brady went South everyone was picking them to win the Super Bowl? Maybe Skip Bayless, but not many others that I recall.
 
Tom Brady is not the GOAT. There is on one GOAT and his name is Peyton Manning.

What needs to be talked about is the emergent property of pairing a HOF QB like Brady (not the GOAT but an all time great) and BB.
 
Wallace Breen said:
Tom Brady is not the GOAT. There is on one GOAT and his name is Peyton Manning.
Click to expand...
He never threw a good spiral in college or the nfl. And didn’t he get a little silly with a female trainer in the locker room? Something about his ass and balls in her face.
 
The Spin Meister said:
Last night’s game was amazing. Played in Buffalo with winds over 50 MPH. Cold. Light snow. So the Patriots win by throwing only three times.....two completions, one being a screen pass for seven yards. Lowest attempts since 1974.....by the Bills.

Now the Patriots are in first and a favorite to be in the Super Bowl. To play against.......maybe Brady and the Bucs?

Belichick is doing it with a rookies QB. And no super stars. And doing his usual stoic fashion. Could it be that the Patriots are on their way to another huge batch of Lombardi Trophies with their new young quarterback?

So the debate will rage on. Is Brady the GQOATnthat made Belichick look good? Or did Belichick’s style and system make Brady so good?

Great article even if you hate Bad Bill......he even smiled once!

www.wsj.com

With Just Three Passes in a Win, Bill Belichick Paints a Masterpiece

On a windy night, the Patriots beat the Bills while passing the ball only three times—the fewest since 1974. It was a game that revealed the continued brilliance of the all-time great coach.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
Click to expand...
Each is an all time great. I never understood why it needs to be one or the other. Brady won a Super Bowl without Bill......but I'd wager he used a few things he learned in NE to put the Bucs over the top.
Bill rebuilt the roster and he's doing a great job of showing he doesn't need Brady to have a winning team.
 
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Madsol said:
I'm of the opinion that Brady is a better player than Belichik is a coach. You aren't. Guess what? Neither of us are right and neither are wrong. Cause it's an opinion.
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 
Madsol said:
Admittedly, I didn't read the article. But wasn't this debate ended last year? In their first year apart, Brady won the Super Bowl and Belichik didn't even make the playoffs. Case closed IMHO.
Click to expand...
About eight players opted out because of covid. If the starters had stayed, New England would have been very competitive.
 
IANit said:
So when Brady went South everyone was picking them to win the Super Bowl? Maybe Skip Bayless, but not many others that I recall.
Click to expand...
Lots of people were picking the Bucs to win the Super Bowl when Brady went there.
 
bvillebaron said:
Lots of people were picking the Bucs to win the Super Bowl when Brady went there.
Click to expand...
rem524 said:
Bucs' Super Bowl Odds Skyrocket After Tom Brady Signing

The perception changed significantly when Brady was signed.
Click to expand...
I don't remember a lot of pro football writers/analysts saying they were going to win it. Looks like the pre-season odds had them tied as the favorites in the NFC, something I hadn't really looked at back then. But they struggled a bit at first, including an opening loss to New Orleans, and I thought most were predicting them to be a playoff team or at best runner-up to the unbeatable Chiefs. For example, Sports Illustrated had 8 writers predict the winner - and only one even had the Bucs in the Super Bowl, with the Chiefs predicted to win.

Looks like Peter King and Rich Eisen predicted the Bucs would win over the Ravens. I couldn't find many others in the media who were predicting a Bucs Super Bowl win. I'm sure there were some, but it wasn't a majority by any means.
 
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