The Catholic Priesthood

bourbon n blues

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As a Catholic, I believe the Church has it correct. I believe the vocation to be among the most important and it is appropriately referred to as a "calling" for a reason. The demands of the priesthood would conflict with the duties of a husband/father. It wouldn't be fair to either family. If anything, I think the Church ought to try to attract more deacons.
However ministers and Rabbis do this. My father in law was a great minister and family man for example.
 

HartfordLlion

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Based on how hypocritical Right Wing Christians are on other issues like the death penalty, supporting the poor and needy, supporting a man like Trump, etc.

Supporting the poor and the needy??? The Catholic Church has always been at the top when it comes supporting the poor and needy. Here in CT it is the top spender in social services after the state.
 

bourbon n blues

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No doubt, in many ordinary circumstances, it "can" be done. It's the extraordinary ones I worry about, for the same reason I worry about conflicts of interest in other walks of life.
It seems many make it work , I'm going to think it goes back to overall structure of the churches. As a Lutheran I have no idea who the head of the synod is. I know the name of Pope, I mean his papal name.
I think the Catholic Church is more demanding due to the structure than say Lutherans , Methodists, UCC etc.
 

Aardvark86

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It seems many make it work , I'm going to think it goes back to overall structure of the churches. As a Lutheran I have no idea who the head of the synod is. I know the name of Pope, I mean his papal name.
I think the Catholic Church is more demanding due to the structure than say Lutherans , Methodists, UCC etc.
No doubt there are important doctrinal differences too. Forgive me if I'm screwing up in my understanding of Lutheranism, but I "think" that theologically, the role/responsibility of the priest/pastor in helping to secure the salvation of the parishioner is just flat out different, with the priest having a "greater" (theologically, not judgmentally speaking) role/responsibility. Perhaps this in turn ratchets up the importance of the "conflict of interest" rationale as it relates to marital status.
 
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bourbon n blues

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No doubt there are important doctrinal differences too. Forgive me if I'm screwing up in my understanding of Lutheranism, but I "think" that theologically, the role/responsibility of the priest/pastor in helping to secure the salvation of the parishioner is just flat out different, with the priest having a "greater" (theologically, not judgmentally speaking) role/responsibility. Perhaps this in turn ratchets up the importance of the "conflict of interest" rationale as it relates to marital status.
I say that's a great way to say it. Our main doctrine is justification by faith, not acts. |However we believe good acts come along with that. no one believes in God then ignores his rules for example. I would say the Catholic doctrine over complicates it for the average person. I'm sure the counter to that thought is these nuances we focus on builds, shapes, and increases our understanding and plan God has for us.
For a very pious person who follows the rules of the Catholic church I can see it adding to one's religious experience. Too me I prefer the KISS approach.
It doesn't mean I don't appreciate God's plan, it's just that I accept certain things and go from there.
 
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Aardvark86

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It doesn't mean I don't appreciate God's plan, it's just that I accept certain things and go from there.
Easy there pal, let's not bring the Calvinists into this... ;)


(BTW, one thing that I think this discussion illustrates quite well is that, contrary to the perception of many nonbelievers, churches don't just make up arbitrary practices willy-nilly, even though they may seem objectively silly to modern rationalist sensibilities. Rather, religious practice and religious doctrine are often remarkably coherent relative to one another. As the old saying goes, Lex orandi, lex credendi.)
 
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nitanee123

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I say that's a great way to say it. Our main doctrine is justification by faith, not acts. |However we believe good acts come along with that. no one believes in God then ignores his rules for example. I would say the Catholic doctrine over complicates it for the average person. I'm sure the counter to that thought is these nuances we focus on builds, shapes, and increases our understanding and plan God has for us.
For a very pious person who follows the rules of the Catholic church I can see it adding to one's religious experience. Too me I prefer the KISS approach.
It doesn't mean I don't appreciate God's plan, it's just that I accept certain things and go from there.

What about Satan?
 

Aardvark86

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TFBaum

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Based on how hypocritical Right Wing Christians are on other issues like the death penalty, supporting the poor and needy, supporting a man like Trump, etc.
Catholics are not right wing Christians. Do you know what started the White Supremacy movement? Do you understand why the Catholics started the school system they created? I would politely suggest that you don’t group Catholics with ring wing Christians. The Church and I will let the Catholics on this thread to answer but the pillar of the church is family and life. Compromise of your beliefs is mediocre.
 

nitanee123

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Weirdo? You obviously are ignorant as to the issue at hand. Hint: Faith alone vs Faith plus works.

And if you are going to claim that the Catholic Church over complicates things you ought not bring up something that shows the errors of over simplifying.
 

TFBaum

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Weirdo? You obviously are ignorant as to the issue at hand. Hint: Faith alone vs Faith plus works.

And if you are going to claim that the Catholic Church over complicates things you ought not bring up something that shows the errors of over simplifying.
Are you responding to me? If you are you are stupid. Go do some research.
 
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bourbon n blues

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Are you responding to me? If you are you are stupid. Go do some research.
I refuse to engage him, he's obviously a weirdo who couldn't grasp the context of this conversation. Look at his profile versus yours . More posts than reactions .
By 3x. He's obviously being a Dick trying to prove his non point. We were having a normal conversation. So F that guy.
In real life if you , Aardvark, and myself talked faith in a polite manner and this guy showed up I'd tell him the same thing to his face. I have no tolerance for people like him.
 

bourbon n blues

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Weirdo? You obviously are ignorant as to the issue at hand. Hint: Faith alone vs Faith plus works.

And if you are going to claim that the Catholic Church over complicates things you ought not bring up something that shows the errors of over simplifying.
I do not care about your opinion, carry on your pedantry .
 

bourbon n blues

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Oh sorry for misunderstanding
In my life I've seen many things go from simple to complicated to simple. It started with the physical, weight training was my primary. Bruce Lee talked about a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick for a beginner and as you learn you will learn there is so much more to it. then you get to the point where you realize it's just a punch and a kick.
It how the black belt thing got started, you did the work and your belt got dirty and worn showing you spent the time training. Eventually it starts to go back to white from even more wear. Anything I've spent a lot of time in goes this way. Humans need complications and nuance to learn more advanced skills including their faith but if they do the work they find out it's really quite simple. Enlightenment comes from doing the work.
It took me over thirty years to approach a heavy weight with the attitude of I chose this, I love this, so do it hard. Or well, in the case where it's not a max deadlift, lol. Young guys would be amazed my ritual was snap my belt and lift without much fan fair. Once you do the time you will grasp things if you're paying attention.
 

bourbon n blues

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I'll add that my deceased father in law was a Methodist minister who told me God called him to the ministry. As in actually he spoke to him. Now he's either deluded, or he was honest. From seeing his journey I believe him. One thing that stuck with me aside from his obvious love of God and his work was his attitude that the Ten Commandments would not screw up your lives if you try to follow them. God give us rules to live a better life because he loves us.
Simple and to the point and an interesting thing to pose to the atheists. You can not believe in God but follow all the rules and I bet you live a better life. The difference there is faith.
 

nitanee123

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I do not care about your opinion, carry on your pedantry .

Speaking as a Catholic: Frankly, I thought that we were about to have an interesting theological discussion when I indicated that a belief in God wouldn't necessary result in being saved. You somehow took that as an affront to your beliefs. If you didn't wish to engage in such a discussion, that is understandable. But I would advise against labeling the Catholic Church as "over complicating" matters when you don't even understand the gravity of which you speak. (Do you understand the issue of faith vs. works?)

Speaking as a somebody who isn't afraid to engage online: It is ironic that you (a.) resorted to name calling ("weirdo", "pedantic"), (b.) brought up ratios of posts to likes, (c.) claimed to not care about my opinion while either directly or indirectly addressing the last 4 posts to me, while I was nothing but respectful.

And furthermore, your diatribe on lifting weights as a metaphor for enlightenment doesn't apply to religion, or at least to your understanding of the Catholic Church. Your ignorance proves that. You should have spent less time in the weight room and more time reading.
 

Jerry

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Speaking as a Catholic: Frankly, I thought that we were about to have an interesting theological discussion when I indicated that a belief in God wouldn't necessary result in being saved. You somehow took that as an affront to your beliefs. If you didn't wish to engage in such a discussion, that is understandable. But I would advise against labeling the Catholic Church as "over complicating" matters when you don't even understand the gravity of which you speak. (Do you understand the issue of faith vs. works?)

Speaking as a somebody who isn't afraid to engage online: It is ironic that you (a.) resorted to name calling ("weirdo", "pedantic"), (b.) brought up ratios of posts to likes, (c.) claimed to not care about my opinion while either directly or indirectly addressing the last 4 posts to me, while I was nothing but respectful.

And furthermore, your diatribe on lifting weights as a metaphor for enlightenment doesn't apply to religion, or at least to your understanding of the Catholic Church. Your ignorance proves that. You should have spent less time in the weight room and more time reading.

I think the formulation "belief in God," which you extended earlier in the thread even to Satan, is interesting. Great fodder for a discussion in theology class.

It's probably semantics, but to me the concept of "believing in" carries a positive connotation implying "commitment to." As opposed to, say, the statement "believes God exists."

In Satan's case the notion of "belief" does not apply in the same sense as it does for us. Satan knows God exists or, if you will, he has knowledge of God. His visceral rejection is based not on faith or belief but rather a type of knowledge that human beings do not have...at least not in this life.

All this said, as a Catholic, I subscribe to the Catholic view of Faith+Works=Salvation. However, God and Salvation are ultimately mysteries not comprehensible to the human mind. We try to explain them in formulas, and rightly so...as the great minds of Christian history have tried and partially succeeded...but at the end of the day our attempts can not capture the Reality.

One thing for sure: there is no opposition between Faith and Works: Verily I say unto you, he that believes in me, the works that I do, he shall do also...(John 14:12).

You can't get more authoritative than that. In other words, if you truly believe, you will do the works. And if you don't do the works, then your faith is of the counterfeit variety.
 

nitanee123

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I think the formulation "belief in God," which you extended earlier in the thread even to Satan, is interesting. Great fodder for a discussion in theology class.

It's probably semantics, but to me the concept of "believing in" carries a positive connotation implying "commitment to." As opposed to, say, the statement "believes God exists."

In Satan's case the notion of "belief" does not apply in the same sense as it does for us. Satan knows God exists or, if you will, he has knowledge of God. His visceral rejection is based not on faith or belief but rather a type of knowledge that human beings do not have...at least not in this life.

All this said, as a Catholic, I subscribe to the Catholic view of Faith+Works=Salvation. However, God and Salvation are ultimately mysteries not comprehensible to the human mind. We try to explain them in formulas, and rightly so...as the great minds of Christian history have tried and partially succeeded...but at the end of the day our attempts can not capture the Reality.

One thing for sure: there is no opposition between Faith and Works: Verily I say unto you, he that believes in me, the works that I do, he shall do also...(John 14:12).

You can't get more authoritative than that. In other words, if you truly believe, you will do the works. And if you don't do the works, then your faith is of the counterfeit variety.

I cannot take credit for the initial comment about Satan. I heard it in a podcast by Catholic apologist Trent Horn. And I certainly agree with your point....believing in something is not the same as being committed to it. ('Communism' for example.) Furthermore, I don't disagree with anything you have said vis a vis works, faith, and salvation. We do, however, run the risk of assuming that "good works" are all that matter. All too often, I hear people say they don't need to go to church/confession/receive communion because he/she is a "good person".

That having been said, I certainly didn't say anything controversial let alone something that should have elicited being called a 'Dick', 'weirdo', 'pedantic', by an ignorant simpleton.
 

Jerry

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I cannot take credit for the initial comment about Satan. I heard it in a podcast by Catholic apologist Trent Horn. And I certainly agree with your point....believing in something is not the same as being committed to it. ('Communism' for example.) Furthermore, I don't disagree with anything you have said vis a vis works, faith, and salvation. We do, however, run the risk of assuming that "good works" are all that matter. All too often, I hear people say they don't need to go to church/confession/receive communion because he/she is a "good person".

That having been said, I certainly didn't say anything controversial let alone something that should have elicited being called a 'Dick', 'weirdo', 'pedantic', by an ignorant simpleton.

Fair point on the "good person" thing.

I do think it's possible to be a "good person" and have no religious faith at all just as it's possible to be a "bad person" while professing allegiance to this or that religion...including Catholicism.

Faith enlightens the mind and maps the journey Home. But in the end, only God can judge the heart.

I'll stay out of the dust-up between you and Bourbon...except to say that I agree with both you guys on most things and value your contributions to the discussion.

In any case, it's nice to see some committed Catholics like you and Aard here...Pioneer too though we couldn't be further apart on politics.
 
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LafayetteBear

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The OP raised an interesting issue (whether Catholic church doctrine should be changed to allow priests to marry), but it is hardly surprising that this thread devolved into argument. That is the usual result when religious beliefs are debated; especially on an internet board. Sigh ...
 

bourbon n blues

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I think the formulation "belief in God," which you extended earlier in the thread even to Satan, is interesting. Great fodder for a discussion in theology class.

It's probably semantics, but to me the concept of "believing in" carries a positive connotation implying "commitment to." As opposed to, say, the statement "believes God exists."

In Satan's case the notion of "belief" does not apply in the same sense as it does for us. Satan knows God exists or, if you will, he has knowledge of God. His visceral rejection is based not on faith or belief but rather a type of knowledge that human beings do not have...at least not in this life.

All this said, as a Catholic, I subscribe to the Catholic view of Faith+Works=Salvation. However, God and Salvation are ultimately mysteries not comprehensible to the human mind. We try to explain them in formulas, and rightly so...as the great minds of Christian history have tried and partially succeeded...but at the end of the day our attempts can not capture the Reality.

One thing for sure: there is no opposition between Faith and Works: Verily I say unto you, he that believes in me, the works that I do, he shall do also...(John 14:12).

You can't get more authoritative than that. In other words, if you truly believe, you will do the works. And if you don't do the works, then your faith is of the counterfeit variety.
I'm not a Catholic, accept other beliefs and have my own, and I don't care to explain it to him nor argue with him.
I don't hold to or accept the Catholic doctrine . If pushed I have huge issues with the bureaucracy of the church so I chose to remain civil .
But I won't be lectured to or argued with or the gloves come off. I'm addressing you because I like and respect you, not that other guy.
 

Jerry

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I'm not a Catholic, accept other beliefs and have my own, and I don't care to explain it to him nor argue with him.
I don't hold to or accept the Catholic doctrine . If pushed I have huge issues with the bureaucracy of the church so I chose to remain civil .
But I won't be lectured to or argued with or the gloves come off. I'm addressing you because I like and respect you, not that other guy.

The thing is, I think both you guys made some good points on the substance of the issue.

As a Catholic, I have some pretty huge issues myself with the bureaucracy of the Church. In fact, most of the Church's problems, and the roots of the historic crisis that She has been experiencing in recent decades, come from being led by bureaucrats rather than shepherds.

These people, to include the head guy in Rome, have greatly departed from the admonitions of Jesus to the first bishops of the Church 2,000 years ago. In fact, if He came back today, a lot of them would be in the mob demanding another crucifixion.
 
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TFBaum

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The OP raised an interesting issue (whether Catholic church doctrine should be changed to allow priests to marry), but it is hardly surprising that this thread devolved into argument. That is the usual result when religious beliefs are debated; especially on an internet board. Sigh ...
There has been some good back and forth, but to your point we did have some I say grey and you automatically say red.