the apocalypse is upon on us (check your gardens for locust)...MAJOR changes coming?
- Thread starter dunkej01
- Start date
To me, it would make much more sense to move the tournaments to late April away from basketball. I though it had been well proven that a dual meet tournament would be sporadically attended at best.
thats probably the biggest issue i see with the bullet points. They should just do a 4 year contract with Iowa, OkSt, tOSU, PSU and rotate through those schools for the host city. then branch it out from there as the championship grows.
I never participated in wrestling, but have become a fan of the sport. From a fan's perspective, I think it would be difficult to have a championship and then go back to the regular season again. It would seem pretty anti-climatic.
I agree and not only from a fan's perspective, but from the wrestlers also. What is the participants motivation, especially if they are banged up as many are at that time of the year?
It can be crushing when you lose or very anti-climactic if someone wins and then has to continue after winning an individual or team championship. Then throw in the fact that you are close to finals time, I would think there may be a lot of no-shows (especially seniors).
I could see it being fun for some, with less pressure, but so many other circumstances could make for sparse participation, so you may not get the matchups people think they would.
This definetly is part of the issue.
Plus who in their right mind has their zenith event 4 or 5 weeks before the end of the season.
The equivalent of playing the world series beginning Labor Day weekend and then after the World Seies is concluded let's finish the regular season.
Real interesting but my immediate thought is how this will conflict with the top wrestlers' FS schedules and whether it will force them to choose between team and individual goals. I suppose USA Wrestling could agree to play nice but their schedule is what it is for a reason. And if PSU and tOSU don't show up with full lineups, people will ask what the point was.
Maybe I missed it in the article, but would the NCAA tourny as we know it still determine the NCAA team champion ? Or would the new attempt at a dual tournament determine it?
Based on Nickerson's comments, it sure sounds like they are looking for two NCAA sanctioned championships. Was under the impression that Title IX would be a huge obstacle to this.
Kind of goes like this....
praying for 2, hoping for a hyrbrid, not satisfied with 1
Does anyone else see the irony of Ryan promoting the importance of duals again? He's the first guy that would send out 6 of his 10 starters at this thing and make a mockery of it. Let's assume they were doing this for the current season. Nato would wrestle only one half of the regular season duals because of his weight cut, make weight 3 times at NCAA'S, then have to make it again a week or 2 later for the first weekend of championship duals, AND then the following week for the second week of duals? OK Tan Tom.
Looking forward to what the Red Ribbon Task Force recommendations are. So many problems with this.
I totally see the hypocrisy, he will say he is just following the rules, but the fans going to the duals are the ones that lose.
When will this nonsense ever end?
From Nickerson, we learn that under the current model, it is challenging for incoming freshmen to balance the pressures of classes, exams, weight-cutting, and competition during the fall semester. And this gem:
"We’ve proven that the individual championship makes money, it’s very successful for the NCAA and why wouldn’t a dual meet championship be just as successful?”
Didn't he graduate from an Ivy League school? Come on, man. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Between this mythical perception that we need 2 sanctioned championships (who does that?) and all the rules and scoring changes every couple of years, we won't recognize the sport in another 10.
From Nickerson, we learn that under the current model, it is challenging for incoming freshmen to balance the pressures of classes, exams, weight-cutting, and competition during the fall semester. And this gem:
"We’ve proven that the individual championship makes money, it’s very successful for the NCAA and why wouldn’t a dual meet championship be just as successful?”
Didn't he graduate from an Ivy League school? Come on, man. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Between this mythical perception that we need 2 sanctioned championships (who does that?) and all the rules and scoring changes every couple of years, we won't recognize the sport in another 10.
By the time the team duals roll around, a team champion has already been crowned, individual champions have been crowned, and we'll have a real good idea of how most, save one or two, duals will pan out. I don't see a dual tournament to end the season being well attended by many outside of the host fanbase. I guess you'll pull in two TV revenue generators with two tournaments, so there's that one "minor" detail.
That part isn't terrible. There may be merit to moving the season back 5-6 weeks, so it starts after Fall finals -- if it's done to move the NCAA Tournament away from that other tournament that hogs all the TV screens (and a couple weeks after MLB opening day). IMO worth discussing pros and cons.
Of course that's not what they're looking to do. Nickerson is smart enough to know that. He (along with Ryan) thinks everyone else is too dumb to see thru the smokescreen.
And the academic argument is specious. Practice is the real time drain. Somehow I don't see Nickerson deferring the start of practice until after finals week.
I guess my point there is "of course the freshman transition is challenging -- that's why redshirting that year is common practice". As you alluded to, I don't want to see that "reason" listed as a means to push a bigger agenda (getting a dual meet championship sanctioned).
And yeah, under the model discussed, practices would still commence well before the end of the semester (Nov 10).
Let me preface this by saying I would love for the NCAA to sponsor both the current individual championship AND a dual championship, but I don't see how the mode they are proposing would work very well. It would need to be two separate seasons, not one right after the other, which IMHO would only add an extra 4 weeks (my guess as they don't give details) of extra practices for 16 teams.
Also, I don't get this point at all
"You’re always going to have your wrestling fans, but I think a dual meet is much more likely to capture that casual fan. … They can conceptualize that a little bit easier than sitting eight hours at a tournament all day long"
It is a true statement which is why PSU gets 6K for home duals and has a waiting list but only 500 (just a guess) PSU fans go to NCAAs every year so what is the point of that statement?
And duals DO matter at least to the fans, the wrestlers, and the coaches (with a few notable exceptions). I don't know where the concept that duals don't matter comes from except as a straw man argument made to argue in favor of a duals championship.
will be interesting to see how the implementation of this new dual championship will work logistically since there will only be one week prior awareness of where the finals will be held. How will they optimize this for travel for involved teams and fans? lodging etc. imagine dealing with this at Penn State if this falls on a spring football weekend or a date when there is a concert previously booked for the BJC. I do not think the one week prior notice for championship location will be without significant downside.
Scores from the first weekend of the NWCA Duals in 2013: 42-0, 39-7, 34-10, 33-10, 33-6, 34-10, 28-8, 27-13, 27-15. Unless that regional is within driving distance, nobody but these kids' mommas is going to watch that.
Most of the regionals will have decent attendance since PSU, tSOU, Iowa, and OK State will almost always be 4 of the sites. However, that raises another issue. Since the plan is for this to be an NCAA championship that means the revenues go to the NCAA but the NCAA pays all of the costs so I don't know that this would be a money making event unless they get ESPN to show at least the finals. The NCAA is not going to sign off on an event if they think it is going to lose them money.
Soooo...we're sharing reasons it won't work, mostly. It's what happens, we become critical.
I'd like to ask the question...What's good about the concept? Big picture, little picture, whatever...is there good in this?
Moving the season within one semester?
Multiple championships (current NCAA, plus Dual Championship)?
Whatever else?
I'd like to ask the question...What's good about the concept? Big picture, little picture, whatever...is there good in this?
Moving the season within one semester?
Multiple championships (current NCAA, plus Dual Championship)?
Whatever else?
I think what maybe could happen is ESPiN would doing something similar to the individual tournament. Start it out with the regionals being on ESPN3 and then ESPN2 for the semis with the finals in prime time on the mothership. If its a NC event, i would think ESPN has the broadcast rights or at least would try to get them through the existing contract.
the spin from the Tan Ribbon Committee is that they need the in season duals to matter. If they matter than attendance will increase. attendance increases and revenue increases. thats the dream, but I just dont know. I think teams need individuals to stand out and the team to market around the individuals. People will sit through 9 so-so matches if they can get a marque match to take home, the message board and the water cooler. sort of like boxing and UFC to me.
Frankly the NCAA and where media is going with streaming, should figure out away to get every match on the net and market that. I currently buy MLB Extra innings and NFL ticket. I also get the big ten league pass for the nitts. Maybe Im an outlier, but I would get a wrestling pass if they had something like it.
look how the Ok State/PSU dual crashed flo. regardless of what you think of Flo thats impressive for the wrestling community in my mind.
film it/stream it and they will come......
Overall, I don't think it is as terrible as has been opined on here and elsewhere. The push towards single semester is a good thing IMO and even though practice will still be held in the first semester to me this is far preferable than the early tournament season held now with all the travel for the wrestlers - at least from a competitor viewpoint.
The dual championship being held after individuals is still problematic for me although I'm still open to the concept. I'm not as focused on attendance - adding another major event if it is becomes a TV event it is a plus. There was a lot of resistance to this at the HS level at first, but after some tinkering with the timing it has become important to the teams that participate regardless of the attendance. I think the same can happen at this level.
The dual championship being held after individuals is still problematic for me although I'm still open to the concept. I'm not as focused on attendance - adding another major event if it is becomes a TV event it is a plus. There was a lot of resistance to this at the HS level at first, but after some tinkering with the timing it has become important to the teams that participate regardless of the attendance. I think the same can happen at this level.
I prefaced my post by saying I like the idea of 2 championships, always have. I also like the 1 semester part. However, based on a MatTalk podcast I just listened to they are talking about 6 more weeks of duals after the NCAAs. That means they will run into finals at some schools
I don't know enough about the set-up of most of these sports, but if they're similar, it's going to be difficult for NCAA to give this to wrestling and not the other sports.
Bowling
Cross Country (maybe)
Fencing
Golf
Gymnastics
Rifle
Rowing
Skiing
Swimming and Diving
Tennis
Track and Field, Indoor
Track and Field, Outdoor
with very little chance to capture the "casual" fan, because they are following the lead sheep and tuning into pumpkin pounding on the other channel.
Not against the dual concept so much, or the one semester-they just have the order mixed up for the two tournaments.
But, that is exactly my point. You can't go to a one-semester Spring sport, keep the individual tournament where it is (meaning it will stay on ESPN), and have the dual tournament before the individual. Add in that many of the NBA/NHL venues used for the individual tournament currently would not be available if you moved the individual tournament to April and the order makes a lot of sense.
The venues would be available. The leagues work around pre-scheduled events everywhere, all the time.
1. How to determine realistic individual seeds if half the schedule is after the tournament?
2. If you have dual tourney first, realistic manner to determine who qualifies?
3. It might be tougher if dual tourney first to get arenas due to bb schedules.
I think the logistics are the main reason I am skeptical. Length of season wouldn't change much- Nov-Mid April = 4 1/2 months, Holiday through end of April = 4 1/2 months. Maybe the best way would be dual season, dual championship 2 weeks before conference tourneys, conference tourney, nationals. Maybe just top 8 qualify for dual championship so it can be done in one weekend. Just things to think about.
The problem with NHL and NBA venues are that is during their playoffs which are not prescheduled. None of those teams will commit to dates during the playoffs where they can't play home games in advance of the season. Regular season is easy, as you say.
holding it at tO$U, PSU, & Iowa are big enough to hold the event, cities that can more than make it happen and built in fan base. Do that for 3 years or 6 years and branch out from there.
Sorry, I completely disagree. NCAAs as of now are scheduled years in advance, which is WAY before regular season NBA and NHL schedules are set so the work around is already happening. Plus once the regular season ends half of the arenas are freed up. Scheduling NCAAs as is now would actually be easier, IMHO, if they were in mid April in stead of mid March.
...I am fine with the present setup and one NCAA Championship Tournament where both individual and team champions are determined...
...if anything, this sounds like a 5-10 year attempt to "grow" a dual team tournament to add more $$$$s to the NCAA coffers...
... the present Championship is a huge success and an increasing TV success ... it does NOT need any additional Championship...
...but thas jes my opinion...
...if anything, this sounds like a 5-10 year attempt to "grow" a dual team tournament to add more $$$$s to the NCAA coffers...
... the present Championship is a huge success and an increasing TV success ... it does NOT need any additional Championship...
...but thas jes my opinion...
Maybe I'm missing something, but are you saying that because the NCAA now schedules many years in advance which is easily worked around by the host city - if needed - during the NBA and NHL regular seasons, that this would translate to the two postseasons if the individual tournament is pushed back? If so, I disagree with you.
Also, Alex brings up a great point about TV, which is what people need to concentrate on rather than attendance. The individual and dual attendances are what they are. Moving the individual tournament to mid April might mean a big step backwards in terms of coverage which makes it a total non-starter for me. The more I think about it, the more accepting I am of this plan. After a few years it may even grow on everyone.
No idea what you are trying to say here in the bolded part. What I am saying is that the NCAAs are scheduled well in advance of both the NBA and NHL regular seasons AND their playoff schedules so the arenas/cities can work around any NCAA event that is already scheduled.
if the tan ribbon committee tries to jam this down a NBA/NHL city they are screwing this up from the jump.
the nationals duals while on the walls in goofer land and some marketing guys would hype recruits about it, it really didnt mean a hill of beans to the greater wrestling public. if they want this to happen they need to build a foundation for it, start small and build to their goals.
20 years ago the championships were at the BJC now they are too huge and never coming back to university sites. that took decades to develop.
They need to put them on a campus, bring in some game day type environment and hype the sh!t out of it and then in 5+ years they will get into the cities with it.
otherwise this is a pig in a poke.
Need to focus on both. Last couple times natty duals was held as a tourney, majority of fans in Stilly and Minny dressed up in their empty seat costumes. TV networks not gonna want to spend money to show nobody cares enough to buy tickets.
As far as moving the individual tourney goes: I'm open to retaining or pushing back, need to hear how/why it would impact. I don't inderstand Alex's tie-in with hoops since it was merely asserted.
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