Talk with a high school student -- a window into the schools

dailybuck777

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Jan 2, 2018
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Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.
 

KnightWhoSaysNit

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Jul 19, 2010
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Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.

Liberalism will cause the implosion of our country. Look at our board lefties. They are pretty much anarchists. There isn't an ounce of discipline in any of them, and yet they control the entire education system.

They control all learning outside of the home, and much of what is inside the home consumed through various forms of media.

The country has been invaded from within, and we are losing the battle.
 

Jerry

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
4,448
9,365
1
Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.

When I went to public school, the system had this quaint notion that all the kids should be, like, actually educated.

By the time our children went to public schools, kids were being actively "tracked" pretty early in the process into groups who would have an opportunity to be educated...and groups for whom there would be only a pretense of education.

The former tracks were called "Honors" and "GT" (Gifted-Talented). The latter: Standard or Special Needs. Conveniently, the problem children ("problem" being a broad category) were tracked into Standard.

Most of our kids were tracked into Honors or GT, and on rare occasion when one of them didn't make that cut for a given class or grade, we went to the schools and demanded that they be moved up to the groups that the schools actually intended to educate. Without exception, the few times we did that, the schools acquiesced.

In fairness, none of this is just the fault of teachers or the "system." It goes a lot further than that. We're asking schools to do the job of parents in instilling discipline and traits of character in kids. This is because the parents are either missing in action or don't care or have simply surrendered control of their kids to the culture. There's no way the schools can compensate for family breakdown and parenting failures. In fact, it's not even their job to try.
 

SR108

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2004
15,952
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Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.
Covid showed us all we needed to know regarding teacher unions.

With that said, there are still a lot of excellent teachers out there who if left alone, actually love teaching their subject matter, when not coerced into teaching woke curriculum.
 

Gnat91

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Dec 28, 2016
3,612
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Jacksonville FL.
Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.
My high school year's were spent learning about how the group of dude teachers were trying to get into all the senior girls pants. I'm sure my school wasn't any different than other schools.
 

Obliviax

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Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
106,477
54,567
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Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.
Did you know that schools once taught reading, writing and math? Fun fact to stump your friends.
 

NJPSU

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
42,531
14,565
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Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.
Sounds like you picked a shitty place to live. My son’s experience is nothing like that.
 

dailybuck777

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Jan 2, 2018
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Sounds like you picked a shitty place to live. My son’s experience is nothing like that.
To start high school, we moved into the new district. My son had a 4.25% grade average and was 45th in his class in the new school district. Got an 85% academic scholarship to college. The grade school and Junior high were reasonably good when my son went there. In fact, on the state scores he was finishing in the top five or 7% of the state.
School district has substantially declined since he left.

Didn't mention in original post that a big part of a reason for decline of school district was a large apartment complex that went section 8. The school district was not that big and got a comparatively big influx of unmotivated students.
 

BoulderFish

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Oct 31, 2016
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Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.

Sorry, but all your credibility was lost by the time you got to your first comma.

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PaoliLion

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Nov 2, 2003
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Ate at a Subway a couple of days ago, and the counter person was a high school student and at what would have been my son's former high school. (We moved away about 6 years ago -- His last year was 8th grade, but jr. high and high school were in same bldg.) The school district was part of an inner ring suburb that historically (about 30 years ago) had a very good, top 10% product. When my kids went there the teachers were good, but some of the students were very irresponsible and not motivated. In talking to this student (I would estimate that he was a junior), I found out that there had been multiple drug raids and that the classes were useless. Teachers didn't even bother to stop students from using their cell phones in class. This student was in what was labeled the average classes, which from my son's time there would probably be called below average in most functioning schools. My son went to all advanced classes, which I would characterize as slightly above average.

This student was motivated and frustrated that there was not much he could learn at school. In fact, he told me what he needed to learn was a tutor. The scores on state tests although not horrendous like Baltimore are below average even though there the student to teacher ratio is about 14 to 1. Sad that public schools are structured to pay teachers and employees more than to do a good job of teaching.

You can earn more money working at a Verizon store than as a teacher. If you think you’ll get a high quality product with that level of pay, you’re kidding yourself.

It’s so cool these days for Republicans to bitch about public education, when it’s their own rank and file that are struggling to graduate.
 

KnightWhoSaysNit

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Jul 19, 2010
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It’s so cool these days for Republicans to bitch about public education, when it’s their own rank and file that are struggling to graduate.

I thought the Republicans were the ones hiring those illegals. (?) Interesting that the rank and file struggled to graduate but then were self sufficient enough to start and own a business. Clearly we don't want those types in society. They might even drive a pickup truck. Better to be a highly educated college graduate and use that degree to take to the streets in violent protest.
 

SheldonJoe2215

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Oct 3, 2015
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You can earn more money working at a Verizon store than as a teacher. If you think you’ll get a high quality product with that level of pay, you’re kidding yourself.

It’s so cool these days for Republicans to bitch about public education, when it’s their own rank and file that are struggling to graduate.

Avg teacher salary $61K

Retail sales assoc $46K

In today's environment, I wouldn't complain if the average teacher's salary was in the $75K range IF the focus was on teaching core skills and not on teaching some of these 'other' areas they are delving into these days.
 
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KnightWhoSaysNit

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Avg teacher salary $61K

Retail sales assoc $46K

In today's environment, I wouldn't complain if the average teacher's salary was in the $75K range IF the focus was on teaching core skills and not on teaching some of these 'other' areas they are delving into these days.

And they have considerably more time off than someone in private industry. And then there are the administrative positions that suddenly popped up just like at the college level, which pay even more.

50 years ago I was in a good school district and half of the teachers were blatantly lazy. I can't imagine what it must be like today. They do not face competition for their jobs. They teach without even knowing what the pressures are like on the outside. A professional position protected by a union. That's as good as it gets.
 

dailybuck777

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Jan 2, 2018
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You can earn more money working at a Verizon store than as a teacher. If you think you’ll get a high quality product with that level of pay, you’re kidding yourself.

It’s so cool these days for Republicans to bitch about public education, when it’s their own rank and file that are struggling to graduate.
The teachers make roughly 70,000 per year. The school district is a third highest taxed in the large metropolitan county. The problem is the system which just pays large amount of money irrespective of the result. Not blaming the teachers per se, but I am substantially blaming a good portion of the parents and students. In fact, roughly 75% of the teachers were very good. They simply can't achieve anything in a dysfunctional system.

20 years ago before section 8 hit, this was a very high ranking school district with roughly equivalent salaries. In fact, the school district is getting the brand new building paid for roughly 70% by the state. It is not a question of finances. It is a question of culture and motivation.

Certain schools are the equivalent of trying to grow rice in the desert. And unfortunately, this school district is trending that way. As usual, you are completely unformed about what you are discussing.
 

PaoliLion

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Nov 2, 2003
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The teachers make roughly 70,000 per year. The school district is a third highest taxed in the large metropolitan county. The problem is the system which just pays large amount of money irrespective of the result. Not blaming the teachers per se, but I am substantially blaming a good portion of the parents and students. In fact, roughly 75% of the teachers were very good. They simply can't achieve anything in a dysfunctional system.

20 years ago before section 8 hit, this was a very high ranking school district with roughly equivalent salaries. In fact, the school district is getting the brand new building paid for roughly 70% by the state. It is not a question of finances. It is a question of culture and motivation.

Certain schools are the equivalent of trying to grow rice in the desert. And unfortunately, this school district is trending that way. As usual, you are completely unformed about what you are discussing.

$70K - that’s pathetic.
 

KnightWhoSaysNit

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You can live quite comfortably on that in Ohio particularly since it's for 9 months work. You could raise the salaries to $120,000 and the results wouldn't be any different.

Exactly.

It isn't the salaries that are the broken part of the system. The salaries are merely reflective of what is paid when a commodity doesn't produce results.

Now you might argue that if we paid 120K$ we would get top instructors. Problem with that is that you still have not removed the union and discipline problems that handcuff the system. You don't have good parents in a lot of cases so the teachers need to be able to have more power with discipline. These problems have to be fixed first, and that won't happen because, well, it is a union operation.

It's not too different than having a bunch of tenured, liberal professors at an Ivy League school. You're not going to get a good product.
 

PaoliLion

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You can live quite comfortably on that in Ohio particularly since it's for 9 months work. You could raise the salaries to $120,000 and the results wouldn't be any different.

You get what you pay for. It doesn’t matter on whether you can live comfortably on $70K in Ohio, other fields are paying a lot more and it sucks the talent out of the teaching profession. Pound for pound, teachers are one of the most important roles in our country and we pay them like crap. When you can go work at an Amazon warehouse and earn as much of a teacher, there’s something wrong.
 

KnightWhoSaysNit

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You get what you pay for. It doesn’t matter on whether you can live comfortably on $70K in Ohio, other fields are paying a lot more and it sucks the talent out of the teaching profession. Pound for pound, teachers are one of the most important roles in our country and we pay them like crap. When you can go work at an Amazon warehouse and earn as much of a teacher, there’s something wrong.

So what's the incentive for a teacher to work hard and produce? There are plenty of lazy people hiding within the cracks making six figures, especially in government roles.

You get what you pay for in a market system. The market has been removed from public education.
 

PaoliLion

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So what's the incentive for a teacher to work hard and produce? There are plenty of lazy people hiding within the cracks making six figures, especially in government roles.

You get what you pay for in a market system. The market has been removed from public education.

If you double salaries for teachers, you would very quickly improve the quality of teachers. Talented people would enter the field (or not exit the field), there would be more competition for jobs, and under-performing teachers would stand-out and get fired at a higher rate. It’s that simple.
 

KnightWhoSaysNit

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Last edited:

The Spin Meister

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Nov 27, 2012
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An altered state
When I went to public school, the system had this quaint notion that all the kids should be, like, actually educated.

By the time our children went to public schools, kids were being actively "tracked" pretty early in the process into groups who would have an opportunity to be educated...and groups for whom there would be only a pretense of education.

The former tracks were called "Honors" and "GT" (Gifted-Talented). The latter: Standard or Special Needs. Conveniently, the problem children ("problem" being a broad category) were tracked into Standard.

Most of our kids were tracked into Honors or GT, and on rare occasion when one of them didn't make that cut for a given class or grade, we went to the schools and demanded that they be moved up to the groups that the schools actually intended to educate. Without exception, the few times we did that, the schools acquiesced.

In fairness, none of this is just the fault of teachers or the "system." It goes a lot further than that. We're asking schools to do the job of parents in instilling discipline and traits of character in kids. This is because the parents are either missing in action or don't care or have simply surrendered control of their kids to the culture. There's no way the schools can compensate for family breakdown and parenting failures. In fact, it's not even their job to try.
All true but it is much worse than that. Teachers have been totally neutered in the classrooms. Yell at a kid for using his cellphone and the parents will head to the admin to complain. Discipline the same kid repeatedly and get sued for picking on the kid. And if said kid of some selected minority status then the lawsuits are worse and large groups of people are mobilized to protest. Media called in, massive bad publicity. That’s how the game is played.


And even if a teacher would have the power to run the classroom properly too many admin types just wants kids pushed on through so their graduation rates are high and dropout rates low. They are just interested in getting good ratings and boasting their own careers.
 

KnightWhoSaysNit

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Jul 19, 2010
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All true but it is much worse than that. Teachers have been totally neutered in the classrooms. Yell at a kid for using his cellphone and the parents will head to the admin to complain. Discipline the same kid repeatedly and get sued for picking on the kid. And if said kid of some selected minority status then the lawsuits are worse and large groups of people are mobilized to protest. Media called in, massive bad publicity. That’s how the game is played.


And even if a teacher would have the power to run the classroom properly too many admin types just wants kids pushed on through so their graduation rates are high and dropout rates low. They are just interested in getting good ratings and boasting their own careers.

^^^^^^
Truth.
 

summitlion1

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Apr 2, 2008
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You get what you pay for. It doesn’t matter on whether you can live comfortably on $70K in Ohio, other fields are paying a lot more and it sucks the talent out of the teaching profession. Pound for pound, teachers are one of the most important roles in our country and we pay them like crap. When you can go work at an Amazon warehouse and earn as much of a teacher, there’s something wrong.
You stated earlier that the average Verizon associate made more than the average teacher, and were proven wrong. Now you changed course and stated that the average Amazon worker makes more than the average teacher. Again, you are wrong. Wrong again

Where would you like to go from here? My guess is you will not respond to this thread again.
 

The Spin Meister

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Nov 27, 2012
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An altered state
You stated earlier that the average Verizon associate made more than the average teacher, and were proven wrong. Now you changed course and stated that the average Amazon worker makes more than the average teacher. Again, you are wrong. Wrong again

Where would you like to go from here? My guess is you will not respond to this thread again.
He is an absolute troll. Ask him about the price of insulin and who screwed it up.
 

PaoliLion

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Nov 2, 2003
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You stated earlier that the average Verizon associate made more than the average teacher, and were proven wrong. Now you changed course and stated that the average Amazon worker makes more than the average teacher. Again, you are wrong. Wrong again

Where would you like to go from here? My guess is you will not respond to this thread again.

The avg. starting salary for a teach is <$40K, while both Verizon and Amazon pay more than that as starting comp. This is to work in a Verizon store and in an Amazon Warehouse. The reason that Amazon’s avg. comp per employee is $29K because, invariably, people leave 1 week into the their job and their comp is effectively $0. Incidentally, the avg. comp of an undergraduate hire at Amazon Corporate is ~$70K.
 

The Spin Meister

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2012
22,898
25,683
1
An altered state
The avg. starting salary for a teach is <$40K, while both Verizon and Amazon pay more than that as starting comp. This is to work in a Verizon store and in an Amazon Warehouse. The reason that Amazon’s avg. comp per employee is $29K because, invariably, people leave 1 week into the their job and their comp is effectively $0. Incidentally, the avg. comp of an undergraduate hire at Amazon Corporate is ~$70K.
 

summitlion1

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2008
166
166
1
The avg. starting salary for a teach is <$40K, while both Verizon and Amazon pay more than that as starting comp. This is to work in a Verizon store and in an Amazon Warehouse. The reason that Amazon’s avg. comp per employee is $29K because, invariably, people leave 1 week into the their job and their comp is effectively $0. Incidentally, the avg. comp of an undergraduate hire at Amazon Corporate is ~$70K.
You're twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to get out of this one. You are telling me that the average salary as both an Amazon warehouse worker and a Verizon store associate is far less than the average salary at these jobs? Now that is truly amazing!
 

PaoliLion

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Nov 2, 2003
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Most teacher's contracts are for 180 days. At 8 hours a day, that's $48.61/Hr. What should they get paid.

The avg. teacher’s salary in Ohio is 57K and their contract is for 39 weeks. That’s a 75K annual salary and the average teacher is 42 years old in Ohio. To be the the 90th percentile, you need an income of 130K. If the average salary of a teacher isn’t 100K at 42 years old, we’re doing something wrong.
 
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dailybuck777

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The avg. teacher’s salary in Ohio is 57K and their contract is for 39 weeks. That’s a 75K annual salary and the average teacher is 42 years old in Ohio. To be the the 90th percentile, you need an income of 130K. If the average salary of a teacher isn’t 100K at 42 years old, we’re doing something wrong.
Here is a link showing that high spending states don't out perform low spending states. https://www.americanexperiment.org/is-there-a-link-between-school-spending-student-achievement/

Also, just relying on salaries excludes valuable teacher benefits, such as very good health plans.


The idea that you get what you pay for, particularly in education is stupid. Typical Leftie solution of throwing money at a problem. One example of high price and poor performance is Jaguar cars. https://www.sellyourproblemcar.com/...ears falling out, or the transmission locking.

When I was a teenager and worked in a golf shop the absolute worst golf clubs were the most expensive.
 

PaoliLion

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Nov 2, 2003
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Here is a link showing that high spending states don't out perform low spending states. https://www.americanexperiment.org/is-there-a-link-between-school-spending-student-achievement/

Also, just relying on salaries excludes valuable teacher benefits, such as very good health plans.


The idea that you get what you pay for, particularly in education is stupid. Typical Leftie solution of throwing money at a problem. One example of high price and poor performance is Jaguar cars. https://www.sellyourproblemcar.com/jaguar-mechanical-faults/#:~:text=Transmission problems are common across all Jaguar models,gear, gears falling out, or the transmission locking.

When I was a teenager and worked in a golf shop the absolute worst golf clubs were the most expensive.

“American Experiment” - what kind of hack organization is that?

Are you arguing that paying people more doesn’t get you better employees?
 

JR4PSU

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Gold Member
Sep 27, 2002
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SE PA
When I went to public school, the system had this quaint notion that all the kids should be, like, actually educated.

By the time our children went to public schools, kids were being actively "tracked" pretty early in the process into groups who would have an opportunity to be educated...and groups for whom there would be only a pretense of education.

The former tracks were called "Honors" and "GT" (Gifted-Talented). The latter: Standard or Special Needs. Conveniently, the problem children ("problem" being a broad category) were tracked into Standard.

Most of our kids were tracked into Honors or GT, and on rare occasion when one of them didn't make that cut for a given class or grade, we went to the schools and demanded that they be moved up to the groups that the schools actually intended to educate. Without exception, the few times we did that, the schools acquiesced.

In fairness, none of this is just the fault of teachers or the "system." It goes a lot further than that. We're asking schools to do the job of parents in instilling discipline and traits of character in kids. This is because the parents are either missing in action or don't care or have simply surrendered control of their kids to the culture. There's no way the schools can compensate for family breakdown and parenting failures. In fact, it's not even their job to try.
The root cause of this “surrendering” to the education system, our children’s broader rearing, is the evolution from a single parent income, with one parent at home with the children, to a two parent income. We’ve given up, collectively, as parents, our responsibility to raise our own kids.

My wife and I decided early in our kids school years to have one parent at home to be involved with our kids. So my wife, a nurse, basically cut back her hours over a two yr period, so we could evolve our family economics, to the point that she was only working 1 day a week. After the kids were in HS, she got a job as a school nurse, which allowed her to work but have basically the same hours as our kids. So she was still at home and available for them when they were not in school. She could shuttle them when needed. She could attend all of the sports activities. She was available to help with homework. She had the summers off with the kids. It was the best of both worlds. She had a decent income and her medical benefits were better than mine, so we used her benefits.

Unfortunately not every couple can do what we were able to do. With my wife being a registered nurse, we had options not everyone has.
 
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The Spin Meister

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Nov 27, 2012
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An altered state
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dailybuck777

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Jan 2, 2018
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Are you arguing that paying people more doesn’t get you better employees?
Sometimes. Sometimes not. Catholic high schools pay a lot less and get better results. Since teacher effectiveness & results are not individually awarded based on merit, less so in education. Of course, teacher unions (Leftie friends) oppose merit based pay.
 
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KnightWhoSaysNit

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The root cause of this “surrendering” to the education system, our children’s broader rearing, is the evolution from a single parent income, with one parent at home with the children, to a two parent income. We’ve given up, collectively, as parents, our responsibility to raise our own kids.

My wife and I decided early in our kids school years to have one parent at home to be involved with our kids. So my wife, a nurse, basically cut back her hours over a two yr period, so we could evolve our family economics, to the point that she was only working 1 day a week. After the kids were in HS, she got a job as a school nurse, which allowed her to work but have basically the same hours as our kids. So she was still at home and available for them when they were not in school. She could shuttle them when needed. She could attend all of the sports activities. She was available to help with homework. She had the summers off with the kids. It was the best of both worlds. She had a decent income and her medical benefits were better than mine, so we used her benefits.

Unfortunately not every couple can do what we were able to do. With my wife being a registered nurse, we had options not everyone has.

I would say that, if a couple does not have your options, then it has either chosen a living standard that is too high, or made a bad decision to produce children. I don't think that economics necessarily drives the ability to have good child rearing. You can find well-developed people within countries that we would rate as living in poverty. So I really think it's the "chosen living standard" that is the real problem.

In our country we want to keep up with the Jones. It's a form of extreme peer pressure. This created sprawling suburbs and extremely expensive inner city living conditions that are not sustainable without sacrificing something -- in this case raising children. The problem is getting worse, not better. So I see a deterioration of living conditions going forward. We will have to accept this as a society if we want to have a society. We'll have to abandon leftism to reverse course. It will be painful.
 
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