Spanier has a book coming out in 09/22

86Engineer

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saw this posted on Facebook today

 

Cletus11

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Well. The FBI investigated Nasser and did nothing and now are getting sued by multiple gymnasts. So to expect that a couple of college admin's and a football coach were going to do more than the FBI shows you how horribly it was handled by PSU and also how PSU was targetted versus all the stuff that now came out about MSU, USA swimming and multiple other large organizations.
 

ryoder1

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About 12 people will read this. Spanier has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. That is not changing. People also love seeing someone who ascended to a prestigious position then be knocked all the way down. Same thing with JoePa. Ain't no one changing their mind about Spanier or the scandal and magically now be pro Spanier or PSU because of this book so hopefully at least he realizes that.
 

roswelllion

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About 12 people will read this. Spanier has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. That is not changing. People also love seeing someone who ascended to a prestigious position then be knocked all the way down. Same thing with JoePa. Ain't no one changing their mind about Spanier or the scandal and magically now be pro Spanier or PSU because of this book so hopefully at least he realizes that.
Well I agree that likely no one will change their mind. Having said that if there is anything we have learned over the last 12 years regardless of your political leanings is that our justice system is about anything but justice. I guess if you are a person of color in a poor neighborhood you say duh! nothing new here. As a 70 year old well off white guy the 2 biggest things that have disappointed me are the extent law enforcement is crooked and the media plays along. Very scary. So for that reason I am glad Spanier fought the system, and is writing the book. I realized the lady wearing the blindfold for the scales of justice is not so she can be fair it is so she doesn't have to watch what is going on.
 

PSUPride1

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Well I agree that likely no one will change their mind. Having said that if there is anything we have learned over the last 12 years regardless of your political leanings is that our justice system is about anything but justice. I guess if you are a person of color in a poor neighborhood you say duh! nothing new here. As a 70 year old well off white guy the 2 biggest things that have disappointed me are the extent law enforcement is crooked and the media plays along. Very scary. So for that reason I am glad Spanier fought the system, and is writing the book. I realized the lady wearing the blindfold for the scales of justice is not so she can be fair it is so she doesn't have to watch what is going on.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Our criminal justice system isn't perfect but it's the best there is. And spare me your white guilt and the narrative of the poor blacks being targeted. I have many law enforcement friends and family and people like you are destroying law and order in this country.
Police patrol where the crime is. If that neighborhood is black, white, Hispanic, Asian, or martian - then that's where they patrol.
I guess you want police to ignore crime ridden areas especially if the neighborhoods are black. In case you missed it black people want more police in their neighborhoods but elitist white liberals know better.
God knows this disgusting narrative is doing wonders for minority communities.
 

AvgUser

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I disagree wholeheartedly. Our criminal justice system isn't perfect but it's the best there is. And spare me your white guilt and the narrative of the poor blacks being targeted. I have many law enforcement friends and family and people like you are destroying law and order in this country.
Police patrol where the crime is. If that neighborhood is black, white, Hispanic, Asian, or martian - then that's where they patrol.
I guess you want police to ignore crime ridden areas especially if the neighborhoods are black. In case you missed it black people want more police in their neighborhoods but elitist white liberals know better.
God knows this disgusting narrative is doing wonders for minority communities.
IN general, disagreeing whole-heartedly is probably correct.

In the specific PSU TSM situation, the justice system, media and FactFreeh weres horribly corrupt and/or inept.
 

roswelllion

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sigh!!! Maybe i wasn't clear. Yes I know blacks want more police in their neighborhoods, and no I am not a defund the police person. I am the last guy in the world to have "white guilt". My main beef is with the investigatory bodies in our country not the guys walking the street. If the FBI can't or won't do a "fair" investigation who will.
 

Media Fan

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I disagree wholeheartedly. Our criminal justice system isn't perfect but it's the best there is. And spare me your white guilt and the narrative of the poor blacks being targeted. I have many law enforcement friends and family and people like you are destroying law and order in this country.
Police patrol where the crime is. If that neighborhood is black, white, Hispanic, Asian, or martian - then that's where they patrol.
I guess you want police to ignore crime ridden areas especially if the neighborhoods are black. In case you missed it black people want more police in their neighborhoods but elitist white liberals know better.
God knows this disgusting narrative is doing wonders for minority communities.
Invariably, when black communities are surveyed, they want more, not less, police presence.
The media gives the radicals the platform while ignoring the good people.
 

PSULionsDub

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If i remember, Spanier refused to cop to a plea deal with one of the main reasons to have his day in court. SO he is not under a gag order like Curley and the other guy is so it will be very interesting to see what Spanier has to say.
I will probably read the book but I don't expect to hear anything new or substantive in this book. Spanier had his day in court to tell his story and he was convicted of child endangerment. What else is there to say?

Note, it looks like the book is published in September so it will be a few months until people can read it.
 

McCloudersportLion

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It's ok Graham- it's a generational thing. That's why they call boomers the Eyes Wide Duskied Generation- Hillary, W - true blue born eyes wide Duskyites
 
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Cletus11

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I will probably read the book but I don't expect to hear anything new or substantive in this book. Spanier had his day in court to tell his story and he was convicted of child endangerment. What else is there to say?

Note, it looks like the book is published in September so it will be a few months until people can read it.
having your day in court doesn't mean you get to tell all. in fact, most times in court only about 1/3 of what you could say actually comes out. People are under false impression based on TV shows and on Hollywood stuff like the Depp-Heard trial that everything comes out. And I remember correctly, Spanier's attorney made a strange decision to not call up any witnesses and basically not do anything after the defense went as there was some thought in his mind that the defense didn't do enough to convict based on the law not applying due to statue of limitations or something. And in reality Spanier's attorney was correct but the there was one juror who refused to budge and said somebody has to pay for this regardless of the law and the other jury members gave in, gave Spaniers a guilty verdict on the lowest crime he was being charged for in order not to have to stay the weekend and ultimately have a hung jury. This all from the interview that the head juror gave after the case.

So I actually suspect you will find out a lot in this book which was not known through the court cases.
 

B_Levinson

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I have placed an order for this book and am looking forward to reading it. I am sufficiently familiar with the issues at hand to expect a 5-star product, and that Dr. Spanier will be delivering very accurate information about Penn State Trustees' mishandling of a crisis in November 2011 that then spiraled out of control when they tried to cover up their first mistakes and inaccurate statements with subsequent ones.

As but one example, the Board published in March 2012 that it fired Coach Paterno for "failure of leadership," a phrase it used twice. Two Trustees later, however, had to give depositions under oath in which one admitted that the Board fired Paterno not for anything he had or had not done, and the other admitted the same although not quite as explicitly. This means the entire Board as constituted in March 2012, with one honorable exception who distanced himself from its actions, misinformed Penn State and the people of Pennsylvania about the circumstances of Coach Paterno's dismissal. I can provide a side by side comparison of the two statements (the Board's publication of March 2012 and a portion of the deposition) for anybody who wants to see this.

Commonwealth Court Judge Dan Pellegrini later opined that the Board had a fiduciary duty to challenge the NCAA's sanctions against Penn State, and that the Board failed to carry it out. ("Judge Rules NCAA Fine Should Stay in Pennsylvania, Blasts NCAA Sanctions" in Onward State if you wish to see this.) I am confident that Dr. Spanier's book will go into further detail about the mishandling of this situation at the highest (Trustee) levels at Penn State, and elsewhere in Pennsylvania, and I am looking forward to receiving my copy.
 

roswelllion

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IN general, disagreeing whole-heartedly is probably correct.

In the specific PSU TSM situation, the justice system, media and FactFreeh weres horribly corrupt and/or inept.
Well before you generally agree whole-heartedly and since you named names

. PSU/TSM/justice system media and Freeh
. Nassar
. The Ohio State Dr..
. Michigan Governor kidnap plot [FBI set up]
. Steele Dosier - recent testimony showed they knew it was fake and said nothing

So for every one we know about how many don't we know about

Sorry, if you have faith in our investigatory system you are generally and whole-heartedly naive.
 

roswelllion

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I have placed an order for this book and am looking forward to reading it. I am sufficiently familiar with the issues at hand to expect a 5-star product, and that Dr. Spanier will be delivering very accurate information about Penn State Trustees' mishandling of a crisis in November 2011 that then spiraled out of control when they tried to cover up their first mistakes and inaccurate statements with subsequent ones.

As but one example, the Board published in March 2012 that it fired Coach Paterno for "failure of leadership," a phrase it used twice. Two Trustees later, however, had to give depositions under oath in which one admitted that the Board fired Paterno not for anything he had or had not done, and the other admitted the same although not quite as explicitly. This means the entire Board as constituted in March 2012, with one honorable exception who distanced himself from its actions, misinformed Penn State and the people of Pennsylvania about the circumstances of Coach Paterno's dismissal. I can provide a side by side comparison of the two statements (the Board's publication of March 2012 and a portion of the deposition) for anybody who wants to see this.

Commonwealth Court Judge Dan Pellegrini later opined that the Board had a fiduciary duty to challenge the NCAA's sanctions against Penn State, and that the Board failed to carry it out. ("Judge Rules NCAA Fine Should Stay in Pennsylvania, Blasts NCAA Sanctions" in Onward State if you wish to see this.) I am confident that Dr. Spanier's book will go into further detail about the mishandling of this situation at the highest (Trustee) levels at Penn State, and elsewhere in Pennsylvania, and I am looking forward to receiving my copy.
Barry,
Who was our 1 honorable trustee, and can you list the trustees at the time.
 

B_Levinson

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ryoder1

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Al Clemens is the only 2011 Trustee I would ever want back. https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2014/03/penn_state_trustee_resigning_p.html

The ones who fired Joe include John Surma, Karen Peetz, Kenneth Frazier, Anne Riley, Paul Suhey, Joel Myers, Keith Masser, Lubert, and these are just off the top of my head.
Paul Suhey as in the dude who played for Joe and benefitted from his leadership? The guy who would never had been on the team had Joe not done his family a favor since his father was a big star and his brother Matt was a star. Joke.
 

PSUSignore

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having your day in court doesn't mean you get to tell all. in fact, most times in court only about 1/3 of what you could say actually comes out. People are under false impression based on TV shows and on Hollywood stuff like the Depp-Heard trial that everything comes out. And I remember correctly, Spanier's attorney made a strange decision to not call up any witnesses and basically not do anything after the defense went as there was some thought in his mind that the defense didn't do enough to convict based on the law not applying due to statue of limitations or something. And in reality Spanier's attorney was correct but the there was one juror who refused to budge and said somebody has to pay for this regardless of the law and the other jury members gave in, gave Spaniers a guilty verdict on the lowest crime he was being charged for in order not to have to stay the weekend and ultimately have a hung jury. This all from the interview that the head juror gave after the case.

So I actually suspect you will find out a lot in this book which was not known through the court cases.
Please cite a source. I read a handful of articles and quotes from one of the jurors and didn't see anything that resembles at least half of what you just posted.
 
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BringBackStoneys

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I disagree wholeheartedly. Our criminal justice system isn't perfect but it's the best there is. And spare me your white guilt and the narrative of the poor blacks being targeted. I have many law enforcement friends and family and people like you are destroying law and order in this country.
Police patrol where the crime is. If that neighborhood is black, white, Hispanic, Asian, or martian - then that's where they patrol.
I guess you want police to ignore crime ridden areas especially if the neighborhoods are black. In case you missed it black people want more police in their neighborhoods but elitist white liberals know better.
God knows this disgusting narrative is doing wonders for minority communities.
“Though only 5 percent of the world’s population lives in the United States, it is home to 25 percent of the world’s prison population. … Not only does the current overpopulated, underfunded system hurt those incarcerated, it also digs deeper into the pockets of taxpaying Americans.” - quote from ultra-liberal Rand Paul

Look, I am sure your law enforcement friends and family are good people- but the system is BROKEN. Throwing out stupid statements like “Our criminal justice system isn't perfect but it's the best there is” makes you look defensive and ignorant.
 

PSUPride1

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“Though only 5 percent of the world’s population lives in the United States, it is home to 25 percent of the world’s prison population. … Not only does the current overpopulated, underfunded system hurt those incarcerated, it also digs deeper into the pockets of taxpaying Americans.” - quote from ultra-liberal Rand Paul

Look, I am sure your law enforcement friends and family are good people- but the system is BROKEN. Throwing out stupid statements like “Our criminal justice system isn't perfect but it's the best there is” makes you look defensive and ignorant.
Sorry, but we have a culture of violence in this country glorified by Hollywood, gangster rappers, etc. We have also seen the destruction of the nuclear family and the church so there's no parenting or morals.
And I'm sorry if someone is hurt by the prison experience. Don't commit crimes. The victims are also hurt.
We tried the soft on crime crap.for the past couple of years and it's been a disaster.
 
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Obliviax

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Sorry, but we have a culture of violence in this country glorified by Hollywood, gangster rappers, etc. We have also seen the destruction of the nuclear family and the church so there's no parenting or morals.
And I'm sorry if someone is hurt by the prison experience. Don't commit crimes. The victims are also hurt.
We tried the soft on crime crap.for the past couple of years and it's been a disaster.
That is exactly correct. I am not sure of "Hollywood" as their stuff is worldwide. But the drug culture and the seemingly embracing of that culture is horrific. At the same time, prosecutors are out of control. My wife has made a career or fighting them and successfully. We saw this with Curley and Schultz: they ruined their lives for five years, wore them down, until they got a single misdemeanor confession. That case cost the govt hundreds of thousands of dollars for next to nothing.

in many cases, people accused get a court-appointed lawyer who will be a couple of hundred dollars. What they do is try to the case of their docket ASAP. You can't make any money at $200 a case unless you are doing dozens of them at the same time. So what they do is get their client to plead out even when innocent.

My wife had a case where she caught the police planting drugs and the kid plead out to a misdemeanor because he couldn't lose his job to fight the charge and sue the police. She has one case, a brutality case, that has gone on for almost seven years (went to the supreme court of Ohio). It is clearly police brutality, they've lost over and over again and keep appealing but are hoping to wear everyone out. Why? They don't want to lose the civil case that will be filed once criminal are dropped.
 

roswelllion

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That is exactly correct. I am not sure of "Hollywood" as their stuff is worldwide. But the drug culture and the seemingly embracing of that culture is horrific. At the same time, prosecutors are out of control. My wife has made a career or fighting them and successfully. We saw this with Curley and Schultz: they ruined their lives for five years, wore them down, until they got a single misdemeanor confession. That case cost the govt hundreds of thousands of dollars for next to nothing.

in many cases, people accused get a court-appointed lawyer who will be a couple of hundred dollars. What they do is try to the case of their docket ASAP. You can't make any money at $200 a case unless you are doing dozens of them at the same time. So what they do is get their client to plead out even when innocent.

My wife had a case where she caught the police planting drugs and the kid plead out to a misdemeanor because he couldn't lose his job to fight the charge and sue the police. She has one case, a brutality case, that has gone on for almost seven years (went to the supreme court of Ohio). It is clearly police brutality, they've lost over and over again and keep appealing but are hoping to wear everyone out. Why? They don't want to lose the civil case that will be filed once criminal are dropped.
Obli, according to Pride you must be full of "white guilt".
 

bourbon n blues

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“Though only 5 percent of the world’s population lives in the United States, it is home to 25 percent of the world’s prison population. … Not only does the current overpopulated, underfunded system hurt those incarcerated, it also digs deeper into the pockets of taxpaying Americans.” - quote from ultra-liberal Rand Paul

Look, I am sure your law enforcement friends and family are good people- but the system is BROKEN. Throwing out stupid statements like “Our criminal justice system isn't perfect but it's the best
Well before you generally agree whole-heartedly and since you named names

. PSU/TSM/justice system media and Freeh
. Nassar
. The Ohio State Dr..
. Michigan Governor kidnap plot [FBI set up]
. Steele Dosier - recent testimony showed they knew it was fake and said nothing

So for every one we know about how many don't we know about

Sorry, if you have faith in our investigatory system you are generally and whole-heartedly naive.
Yep
That is exactly correct. I am not sure of "Hollywood" as their stuff is worldwide. But the drug culture and the seemingly embracing of that culture is horrific. At the same time, prosecutors are out of control. My wife has made a career or fighting them and successfully. We saw this with Curley and Schultz: they ruined their lives for five years, wore them down, until they got a single misdemeanor confession. That case cost the govt hundreds of thousands of dollars for next to nothing.

in many cases, people accused get a court-appointed lawyer who will be a couple of hundred dollars. What they do is try to the case of their docket ASAP. You can't make any money at $200 a case unless you are doing dozens of them at the same time. So what they do is get their client to plead out even when innocent.

My wife had a case where she caught the police planting drugs and the kid plead out to a misdemeanor because he couldn't lose his job to fight the charge and sue the police. She has one case, a brutality case, that has gone on for almost seven years (went to the supreme court of Ohio). It is clearly police brutality, they've lost over and over again and keep appealing but are hoping to wear everyone out. Why? They don't want to lose the civil case that will be filed once criminal are dropped.
Your wife see the evidence in this case and the complete grand jury testimony and evidence?
 

Obliviax

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Obli, according to Pride you must be full of "white guilt".
Well, I certainly understand why many minorities feel they've been persecuted. Why? Because it is true. At the end of the day, "jury of your peers" brings the law back to the people. Govt people can do whatever they want but you still need to convince a jury of your peers (my wife won a case this week that had 8 misdemeanor charges and won all 8 of them, the prosecutor tried to get the defendant to plea bargain after the jury went to deliberation). Directionally, as a nation, we are OK. But there are a lot of individual cases where it could be drastically better. For example, prosecutors think NOTHING of tying up their unlimited resources for YEARS on BS cases for political reasons. Again, Curely/Schultz are a perfect example.

The most powerful words ever written that are not Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist are in the declaration of independence. I tell my kids all the time: "Follow your heart and work hard. The rest will take care of itself."

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
 

PSUPride1

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That is exactly correct. I am not sure of "Hollywood" as their stuff is worldwide. But the drug culture and the seemingly embracing of that culture is horrific. At the same time, prosecutors are out of control. My wife has made a career or fighting them and successfully. We saw this with Curley and Schultz: they ruined their lives for five years, wore them down, until they got a single misdemeanor confession. That case cost the govt hundreds of thousands of dollars for next to nothing.

in many cases, people accused get a court-appointed lawyer who will be a couple of hundred dollars. What they do is try to the case of their docket ASAP. You can't make any money at $200 a case unless you are doing dozens of them at the same time. So what they do is get their client to plead out even when innocent.

My wife had a case where she caught the police planting drugs and the kid plead out to a misdemeanor because he couldn't lose his job to fight the charge and sue the police. She has one case, a brutality case, that has gone on for almost seven years (went to the supreme court of Ohio). It is clearly police brutality, they've lost over and over again and keep appealing but are hoping to wear everyone out. Why? They don't want to lose the civil case that will be filed once criminal are dropped.
Their is corruption and bias in every field. You do your best to make it right. God knows our politicians are a joke. That said you don't undermine and demonize and label the entire system racist. That is ridiculous.but is typical of the way the radical left behaves. Because the radical left are mental cases that see everything through a negative racial lens they are a cancer to everything they touch.
 

bourbon n blues

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what case are you talking about?
The Sandusky case obviously, because if you're using that as some kind of proof here your bias is showing. Cases she tried or defended aren't cases she hasn't been involved with. Some people are guilty and that is determined by the totality of the evidence and testimony after a trial or plea.
 
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BringBackStoneys

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Sorry, but we have a culture of violence in this country glorified by Hollywood, gangster rappers, etc. We have also seen the destruction of the nuclear family and the church so there's no parenting or morals.
And I'm sorry if someone is hurt by the prison experience. Don't commit crimes. The victims are also hurt.
We tried the soft on crime crap.for the past couple of years and it's been a disaster.
Crime in the US has plummeted since all time highs in 1992-1993; anyone who thinks current crime rates are bad in watching too much 24/7 cable news drama.

Yet, imprisonment is way up. It‘s almost like for-profit prisons was a bad idea.
 

Obliviax

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The Sandusky case obviously, because if you're using that as some kind of proof here your bias is showing. Cases she tried or defended aren't cases she hasn't been involved with. Some people are guilty and that is determined by the totality of the evidence and testimony after a trial or plea.
The grand jury simply is approval to file charges. It has no bearing on guilt or innocence since the DA can say anything they want without challenge. it is comparing apples to oranges. So, in the case where the cop planted evidence, a charge could easily be brought because the GJ wouldn't know the evidence was planted. Its that simple.
 
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Obliviax

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Their is corruption and bias in every field. You do your best to make it right. God knows our politicians are a joke. That said you don't undermine and demonize and label the entire system racist. That is ridiculous.but is typical of the way the radical left behaves. Because the radical left are mental cases that see everything through a negative racial lens they are a cancer to everything they touch.
I am not sure it is "racist", overtly. It is certainly stacked against those who cannot afford a quality legal representative. And, unfortunately, that really is worse for inner city kids who are disproportionally black. We need to fix our inner cities. That is the bottom line. Burning down small businesses and defunding police isn't the answer, as we are all seeing.
 

roswelllion

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Well, I certainly understand why many minorities feel they've been persecuted. Why? Because it is true. At the end of the day, "jury of your peers" brings the law back to the people. Govt people can do whatever they want but you still need to convince a jury of your peers (my wife won a case this week that had 8 misdemeanor charges and won all 8 of them, the prosecutor tried to get the defendant to plea bargain after the jury went to deliberation). Directionally, as a nation, we are OK. But there are a lot of individual cases where it could be drastically better. For example, prosecutors think NOTHING of tying up their unlimited resources for YEARS on BS cases for political reasons. Again, Curely/Schultz are a perfect example.

The most powerful words ever written that are not Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist are in the declaration of independence. I tell my kids all the time: "Follow your heart and work hard. The rest will take care of itself."

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Obli,
I am amazed that you and your wife [apparently] can remain so optimistic. congrats. The entire JS JoePa Curley/Schultz/Spanier case was probably the first case I ever followed reasonably closely between LE and the media it was eye opening in a very bad way. Since then when you pay a little more attention the view doesn't get better.
even the most recent Sussman trial blew my mind. It doesn't surprise that he was acquitted it was a very weak charge. What blew my mind was everything the R's have been saying regarding the Steele Dossier, being fake, the FBI knowing that and still spying etc was ADMITTED in court and everyone just yawns. I wish I shared your optimism about our future.
 

roswelllion

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Aug 18, 2003
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Their is corruption and bias in every field. You do your best to make it right. God knows our politicians are a joke. That said you don't undermine and demonize and label the entire system racist. That is ridiculous.but is typical of the way the radical left behaves. Because the radical left are mental cases that see everything through a negative racial lens they are a cancer to everything they touch.
Not sure if the term "radical left mental cases" is intended for me since your first response in this thread was a response to me but if it was but if you think calling out a broken system of justice is radical left mental cases you have a bad case of paranoia.
Do you think the way the the Jan 6th folks are being held and treated [whether guilty or not] prior to a trial is what our system was intended to look like. I think you can make a good case the Gitmo detainees have it better.
 
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Obliviax

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Obli,
I am amazed that you and your wife [apparently] can remain so optimistic. congrats. The entire JS JoePa Curley/Schultz/Spanier case was probably the first case I ever followed reasonably closely between LE and the media it was eye opening in a very bad way. Since then when you pay a little more attention the view doesn't get better.
even the most recent Sussman trial blew my mind. It doesn't surprise that he was acquitted it was a very weak charge. What blew my mind was everything the R's have been saying regarding the Steele Dossier, being fake, the FBI knowing that and still spying etc was ADMITTED in court and everyone just yawns. I wish I shared your optimism about our future.
Agreed. Several thoughts:
  1. First, the GOP is just as bad as the democrats. This is, I believe, a problem with lawyers being 99% of all politicians. They are trained to advocate regardless of what is right or wrong.
  2. The cases that you outline, Sussman and PSU, are highly political. Both cases have a direct effect on political power and the parties' opportunity to either retain or gain political power. So the problems with our judicial system seems to be worse at the high end and low end. Rich people can expect to be sued all the time...they have deep pockets. Poor people can't fight. I do agree that both parties have lost any mooring that they once may have had to fairness and honesty. The problem is, that is the people's fault. All of those people NEED to be punished in November. A bigger problem is that the media has completely aligned with the two parties and is no longer credible. there is no higher power people can use to keep the parties in check.
  3. Prosecutors are out of control. Judges need to reign them in. The police, for the most part, are awesome. So are the judges. Most defense lawyers are pretty handcuffed in terms of time and resources unless representing a corporate entity. IMHO, the Bar Association needs to get much more involved with prosecutors. When prosecutors are caught cheating, the case (at least in ohio) just starts over. There is no real penalty to getting caught other than you can't use the evidence and the case restarts. With the unlimited resources of the govt, who cares? When pressed, they tell you to file a case with the Bar Association to get them disbarred. Well, years of litigation with no income associated make that option a non-starter.
 
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DandyDonII

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Oct 16, 2002
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Crime in the US has plummeted since all time highs in 1992-1993; anyone who thinks current crime rates are bad in watching too much 24/7 cable news drama.

Yet, imprisonment is way up. It‘s almost like for-profit prisons was a bad idea.

Your failure to see the correlation between higher incarceration rates and lower crimes rates is mind boggling.
Crime rates in most locations didn't stop dropping until the mid to late 90s.....Why you ask? Because many states implemented 3 strikes type laws.

California, the most populous state, and a state besieged by crime into the early 90s implemented 3 strikes in 1994 and also added mandatory gun enhancements and gang enhancements increased prison sentences. So instead of getting convicted, getting out in a few years, and committing more violent crime, these guys were still in prison not committing the crime.

Within a couple of years of passage of 3 strikes, murders dipped from 4k a year to under two thousand a year, and stayed there (a cut of 1/2) despite California going from 30 to 39 million people in that time. Violent Crimes were in the mid 300ks and dropped into the 200ks. Of Course that has all changed since 2020, murders skyrocketed to over 2200 and 2021 is supposedly higher.
Look, there are a lot of bad dudes out there with a population of 39 mil, but the guys who do the real bad stuff are much smaller statistically. You keep them incarcerated, and violent crime rates stay down, you let them out, it goes up. It is pretty simple math.
 

DandyDonII

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Oct 16, 2002
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“Though only 5 percent of the world’s population lives in the United States, it is home to 25 percent of the world’s prison population. … Not only does the current overpopulated, underfunded system hurt those incarcerated, it also digs deeper into the pockets of taxpaying Americans.” - quote from ultra-liberal Rand Paul

Look, I am sure your law enforcement friends and family are good people- but the system is BROKEN. Throwing out stupid statements like “Our criminal justice system isn't perfect but it's the best there is” makes you look defensive and ignorant.
It isn't our criminal system that is broken, it speaks more about our society. Our criminal system is just left to deal with many of the worst that our society produces.
 
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PSUPride1

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Apr 24, 2003
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Not sure if the term "radical left mental cases" is intended for me since your first response in this thread was a response to me but if it was but if you think calling out a broken system of justice is radical left mental cases you have a bad case of paranoia.
Do you think the way the the Jan 6th folks are being held and treated [whether guilty or not] prior to a trial is what our system was intended to look like. I think you can make a good case the Gitmo detainees have it better.
I don't include you in the radical left. I'm referring to progressives like AOC. She's a sick mental case and her ilk will destroy this country.
 
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Obliviax

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Aug 21, 2001
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Paywalled
here is a different one....but similar.

Philly.com reported on Thursday that the foreman of the jury that found former Penn State President Graham Spanier guilty on one count of child endangerment said that verdict was a ‘mistake’ and that he that he was conflicted about changing his vote from not guilty.

The foreman, identified by Philly.com as 78-year-old retired truck driver Richard Black, told the site that as deliberations neared their end, he was the last juror holding out with a not guilty vote. Had he not changed his vote, it could have resulted in a mistrial.

Black said he would tell Spanier ‘I’m sorry,’ though the site reports he has ‘made peace’ with the jury’s decision. He told the site that the jury came to its decision through serious deliberations and that they ‘did what they were asked to do.’

Spanier was found guilty of one misdemeanor count of endangering the welfare of children and acquitted of felony charges of child endangerment and conspiracy. The Dauphin County jury convicted on a misdemeanor and not a felony because it did not find a pattern of conduct in Spanier’s actions.

Spanier, along with former athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, were charged for their handling of a report by former Penn State assistant Mike McQueary of seeing Jerry Sandusky with a boy in a locker room shower. All three administrators have said they were not told of anything sexual, though Schultz testified they were told McQueary saw Sandusky naked with his arms around the boy.

“I don’t think Graham Spanier knew,” Black told Philly.com. “They did not … make him understand how serious a condition this might be.”

Black said that had Spanier testified he likely would not have changed his vote to guilty. Spanier’s attorney, Sam Silver, did not call any witnesses at the trial.

Curley and Schultz pleaded guilty on March 13 to one count each of misdemeanor child endangerment. As part of their pleas, they testified for the prosecution at Spanier’s trial. Both said they wish they had done more to report Sandusky in 2001. All three face a maximum sentence of five years in prison, though state sentencing guidelines recommend probation to less than a year for first-time offenders.

Earlier this week, another member of the Spanier jury, Victoria Navazio, told the Associated Press that Spanier’s own words in emails among the three administrators in 2001 played a significant role in the conviction.

In those emails, Curley suggested that they tell Sandusky not to bring children to the locker rooms and to seek professional counseling and that they inform the director of Sandusky’s Second Mile charity for at-risk youth. Curley wrote he had become ‘uncomfortable’ with a previously agreed-upon step of informing the Department of Public Welfare.

‘The only downside for us is if the message isn’t ‘heard’ and acted upon, and then we become vulnerable for having not reported it,’ Spanier wrote in reply. ‘But that can be assessed down the road. The approach you outline is a humane and reasonable way to proceed.’

“How else can you take that, other than they knew they should have been reporting it?” Navazio told the AP. “Obviously he knew children were at risk for something. He knew there was a problem.”

Prosecutors argued that by not reporting Sandusky, the administrators allowed him to continue to sexually abuse children for years.
 
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