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Sort of OT: Mount Rushmore of Baseball

All outfielders. Where's the infield and pitchers?
It's a valid point, but lemme ask you. If you were an MLB general manager and you were given your choice of ANY pitcher who ever pitched, in his prime, versus ANY of Ruth, Aaron, Mays, or Williams, in their respective primes, are you gonna tell me you would take the pitcher? Hell, you could drop it one rung and say Mantle, Musial, Gehrig, and Bonds. Would you take a pitcher over any of THOSE four guys? I wouldn't.

BTW. I frickin' LOVE debating this stuff.
 
It's a valid point, but lemme ask you. If you were an MLB general manager and you were given your choice of ANY pitcher who ever pitched, in his prime, versus ANY of Ruth, Aaron, Mays, or Williams, in their respective primes, are you gonna tell me you would take the pitcher? Hell, you could drop it one rung and say Mantle, Musial, Gehrig, and Bonds. Would you take a pitcher over any of THOSE four guys? I wouldn't.

BTW. I frickin' LOVE debating this stuff.

Musial and Gehrig were infielders.

Championships aren't won by hitting alone. Pitching and defense are required too. And some of the great pitchers were Young, Matthewson, Johnson, Koufax, Ryan.
 
Musial and Gehrig were infielders.

Championships aren't won by hitting alone. Pitching and defense are required too. And some of the great pitchers were Young, Matthewson, Johnson, Koufax, Ryan.
Before someone objects to say that Musial was an LF, he played a lot of 1B at the end of his career.

FWIW, in his earlier ratings Bill James had Musial over Williams at LF. His reasoning: better in the field, on the bases, and in the clubhouse. “And Stan Musial could hit a little, too.”
 
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Before someone objects to say that Musial was an LF, he played a lot of 1B at the end of his career.

FWIW, in his earlier ratings Bill James had Musial over Williams at LF. His reasoning: better in the field, on the bases, and in the clubhouse. “And Stan Musial could hit a little, too.”

I’ll omit the beginning part of the story which is actually the best part if you knew my friend and wife, but my friend told me of a time they took an elevator up at a stadium with Musial. When they got to the press level, the door opened up and the person outside the elevator came face to face with Musial. The person was flabbergasted and said “my God, you’re Stan Musial.” Musial just extended his hand and said “thanks for remembering me”. Musial was as nice and as classy a person that you could be.

When the Cardinals left Al Lang in St Pete they had all the usuals for the last game. Gibson was not there but just about everyone else was. Musial played the Anthem on his harmonica and then came back to play Take Me Out to the Ballgame during the 7th Inning Stretch,
 
I’ll omit the beginning part of the story which is actually the best part if you knew my friend and wife, but my friend told me of a time they took an elevator up at a stadium with Musial. When they got to the press level, the door opened up and the person outside the elevator came face to face with Musial. The person was flabbergasted and said “my God, you’re Stan Musial.” Musial just extended his hand and said “thanks for remembering me”. Musial was as nice and as classy a person that you could be.

When the Cardinals left Al Lang in St Pete they had all the usuals for the last game. Gibson was not there but just about everyone else was. Musial played the Anthem on his harmonica and then came back to play Take Me Out to the Ballgame during the 7th Inning Stretch,
There’s no question that in the Sixties it was the Cardinals, along with the Dodgers, who had the healthiest racial vibe of all MLB teams. A lot of this had to do with Gussie Busch, the owner of the Cards, but Musial surely had a lot to do with this. His teammates loved him. (Julian Javier named his son Stan, after Musial.)
 
There’s no question that in the Sixties it was the Cardinals, along with the Dodgers, who had the healthiest racial vibe of all MLB teams. A lot of this had to do with Gussie Busch, the owner of the Cards, but Musial surely had a lot to do with this. His teammates loved him. (Julian Javier named his son Stan, after Musial.)
Once again, I’m here shilling for David Halberstam’s October 1964, my favorite baseball book.
 
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Bonds is still the scariest hitter I've ever seen, guy got one or two pitches to hit a game, intentionally walked with the bases loaded, unreal. Let's not forget he was a 2 time MVP in Pittsburgh as a stick figure, say what you want about steriods, but guy was incredible and his accomplishments can't be discounted.

Ever see pictures of Bonds when he started and then flash to when he finished? He went from being a toothpick to a teddy bear and I don't think that was all natural added weight. Those people who took the easy way out and used PEDS not only disgraced themselves and abused the game they played, studies have shown that there are unknown side effects that will hit them down the road. It's almost like they made a deal with the devil, a short period of fame for a lifetime of agony. Steroid use is rampant in wrestling, just look up the number of wrestlers who just suddenly dropped dead.
 
Musial and Gehrig were infielders.

Championships aren't won by hitting alone. Pitching and defense are required too. And some of the great pitchers were Young, Matthewson, Johnson, Koufax, Ryan.
I had to double check it after your statement about Musial being an infielder. Here is what I found on the Web:

"Musial made 1,854 career regular-season starts in the outfield and 989 career regular-season starts at first base."

But whether he is characterized as an infielder or an outfielder, Musial is up near the top on the all time greats list.

As for pitchers, I would readily acknowledge their value. But, as someone else has already noted in this thread, they play only once every 4-5 games, and the Mt. Rushmore idea is not centered on fielding a team. Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Williams, Musial, Mantle, Gehrig and Bonds played most every game. In Gehrig's case, every game.
 
I go with Ruth, Mays, Cobb and Williams. Aaron is top eight but not quite Mt. Rushmore. Just cannot do pitchers along with other position players. Always thought they should be separate, but Ruth was great at both. Love Clemente but he lacks power numbers compared to others. Cobb played before the live ball era, but I believe that the sports writers voted him #1 from the first half of the 20th century, ahead of Ruth, so he must have been pretty good. Especially considering that they hated him and for good reason.
 
Its funny reading peoples posts regarding steroids and thinking that their heros from the late 40s to 80s were above that. WWII vets brought back with them the use of methamphetamine aka "greenies". Players mixed it in their coffee before games. This occurred for decades and was much more widespread than steroid use was. It wasn't hidden in any way.
 
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Regarding Gehrig and how he compares with others. When it came to producing actual runs (Runs + RBI – HR) on the field as opposed to theoretical projections/calculations, nobody did it better than he did, not even the Babe.

He is the only player to produce 300 runs in a season. One could estimate the prime years of a player’s career as being their top 10 seasons, maybe 15. Here are the top run producers for each timeframe:

Total runs produced in Top 10 seasons:
  1. Gehrig 2614
  2. Ruth 2497
  3. Foxx 2257
  4. Williams 2213
  5. DiMaggio 2173
Wagner had 1972
Aaron had 1962
Mays had 1928

Total runs produced in Top 15 seasons:
  1. Gehrig 3380
  2. Ruth 3362
  3. Cobb 3052
  4. Foxx 3021
  5. ARod 2940
Williams had 2910 (6)
Wagner had 2820
Aaron had 2814
Mays had 2705

Granted, the rate of scoring varies for different eras, but the magnitude of the difference between Gehrig and the field beyond Ruth is huge. Had Ruth not had the pitching success he did, I would say Gehrig is #1.

To top it off, he was also productive in WS play where his Yankees won 6 of the 7 WS he played in. That’s more than Cobb, Williams, Wagner, Aaron, Mays, and ARod combined.
 
Regarding Gehrig and how he compares with others. When it came to producing actual runs (Runs + RBI – HR) on the field as opposed to theoretical projections/calculations, nobody did it better than he did, not even the Babe.

He is the only player to produce 300 runs in a season. One could estimate the prime years of a player’s career as being their top 10 seasons, maybe 15. Here are the top run producers for each timeframe:

Total runs produced in Top 10 seasons:
  1. Gehrig 2614
  2. Ruth 2497
  3. Foxx 2257
  4. Williams 2213
  5. DiMaggio 2173
Wagner had 1972
Aaron had 1962
Mays had 1928

Total runs produced in Top 15 seasons:
  1. Gehrig 3380
  2. Ruth 3362
  3. Cobb 3052
  4. Foxx 3021
  5. ARod 2940
Williams had 2910 (6)
Wagner had 2820
Aaron had 2814
Mays had 2705

Granted, the rate of scoring varies for different eras, but the magnitude of the difference between Gehrig and the field beyond Ruth is huge. Had Ruth not had the pitching success he did, I would say Gehrig is #1.

To top it off, he was also productive in WS play where his Yankees won 6 of the 7 WS he played in. That’s more than Cobb, Williams, Wagner, Aaron, Mays, and ARod combined.
Gehrig was surrounded by talented players. Name another player from that era (other than a fellow Yankee) who had a supporting cast that was anywhere near comparable. You cannot.

Also, the hitting statistics from Gehrig's era were wildly inflated compared to subsequent decades. Lots of guys hitting over .350 and getting big RBI's and Runs Scored numbers. Pitchers were going every 3-4 days, and relief pitching was far less developed. And every player was white.

I would love to have seen Ruth and Gehrig play in the 1960's and 1970's against both white and non-white players. I suspect their numbers would have been FAR less impressive.
 
Gehrig was surrounded by talented players. Name another player from that era (other than a fellow Yankee) who had a supporting cast that was anywhere near comparable. You cannot.

Also, the hitting statistics from Gehrig's era were wildly inflated compared to subsequent decades. Lots of guys hitting over .350 and getting big RBI's and Runs Scored numbers. Pitchers were going every 3-4 days, and relief pitching was far less developed. And every player was white.

I would love to have seen Ruth and Gehrig play in the 1960's and 1970's against both white and non-white players. I suspect their numbers would have been FAR less impressive.
Ruth was light years above the rest. He would have been a star in any era.
 
Gehrig was surrounded by talented players. Name another player from that era (other than a fellow Yankee) who had a supporting cast that was anywhere near comparable. You cannot.

Also, the hitting statistics from Gehrig's era were wildly inflated compared to subsequent decades. Lots of guys hitting over .350 and getting big RBI's and Runs Scored numbers. Pitchers were going every 3-4 days, and relief pitching was far less developed. And every player was white.

I would love to have seen Ruth and Gehrig play in the 1960's and 1970's against both white and non-white players. I suspect their numbers would have been FAR less impressive.
The year Ruth hit 60 .... no other team hit 60. Thats how much better he was than any of his era..... doesn’t matter which era it was
 
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Gehrig was surrounded by talented players. Name another player from that era (other than a fellow Yankee) who had a supporting cast that was anywhere near comparable. You cannot
So? Should an outstanding Bama cfb player not be given appropriate credit because of their teammates?

Mays had McCovey, Cepeda, and various single season all star teammates. Add in Marichal pitching.

Aaron had Mathews and various single season all star teammates. Add in Spahn pitching.

Jimmy Foxx had a boatload of teammates who won their fair share of titles over the Yankees.
Also, the hitting statistics from Gehrig's era were wildly inflated compared to subsequent decades. Lots of guys hitting over .350 and getting big RBI's and Runs Scored numbers.
As I pointed out in my post, Gehrig’s numbers exceed even the “lots of guys” of his era by huge amounts.
And every player was white.

I would love to have seen Ruth and Gehrig play in the 1960's and 1970's against both white and non-white players.
They could only play who else was playing. I’m not looking to get into any social justice discussion.

Fact is Gehrig produced runs to a greater degree than anyone else in MLB history.
 
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