so I am in the market for a car and would love an EV or PHEV

Obliviax

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Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
108,165
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two general observations

the old tax credit is about up. They capped it at 200,000 cars per manufacturer and companies like Tesla have far exceeded that (GM too with the BOLT). So the new Green New Deal bill modifies and extends it. More on that later. There are a ton of EVs and PHEVs that are on the market, 2021s. Most have been driven less than 10,000 miles. I think people bought these cars, took the tax credit, and are selling them for a couple of thousand below purchase price. So you guy an EV for $55k, tale the credit making the car net $48k, then reselling it for $53k and making a profit of $5,500 and driving a car for a year for free.

The problem for them, now, is buying a $52k used EV/PHEV with no tax credit will be more expensive than buying a new one for $55k.

However, I am reading through the new proposed tax credit for EVs and PHEVs. A perfect case study in the govt screwing everything up. Group think that created such a mess it is next to impossible to navigate.

The new bill
  • Removes the 200,000 unit cap making even Teslas eligible. The problem is they cap the car value at $55k. Any car costing more than that is out. Have you priced cars recently? Any of the mid-grade EVs are more than that if you buy anything other than the base unit. You want leather? Larger wheels? Security package? Cold weather package? etc. You are out of luck with the Mustang, jeeps or Caddies.
  • Caps income at $150k single or $300k joint income. So, WTF can afford a $50k car if they make only $150k a year?
  • The car has to be made, in the majority, in the USA including the battery. That means almost all of the Korean, Japanese or Euro cars won't' qualify.
  • You can get a used EV/PHEM but it has to be less than $25k. Good luck with that.


Here is the bill, to the best I can tell:

New Vehicle Credit

  1. Manufacturer caps eliminated. (Page 370, line 15)
  2. Credit applies for vehicles purchased beginning January 1, 2023. (Page 386, line 1).
  3. Transition provision for EVs with written sales orders dated in 2022 prior to the date of President signing the bill but delivered in 2023 allows purchaser to claim the “old” credit in 2023. (Page 386, line 20).
  4. Vehicle must be assembled in North America to qualify for new credit. (Page 366, line 15).
  5. North American assembly requirement applies to vehicles sold after the date of adoption of the bill. (Page 386, line 3)
  6. $7,500 credit is broke into two binary pieces meaning the vehicle either qualifies for each piece of the credit or it doesn’t. No longer based on size of battery. (Page 366, line 6)
  7. $3,750 of the new credit is based upon the vehicle having at least 40% of its battery critical minerals from the United States or countries with a free trade agreement with the United States. This is a list of countries with free trade agreements with the US.(Page 371)
  8. The other $3,750 of the new credit is based on at least 50% of the battery components of the vehicle coming from the United States or countries with a free trade agreement with the US. (Page 372, line 13)
  9. The 40% minerals requirement increases to 50% in 2024, 60% in 2025, 70% in 2026 and 80% in 2027. (page 371 line 23)
  10. The 50% battery components requirement increases to 60% in 2024, 70% in 2026, 80% in 2027, 90% in 2028 and 100% in 2029. (Page line 373)
  11. The government has until the end of the year to develop guidance on the battery requirements. (Page 374)
  12. Beginning in 2025, any vehicle with battery minerals or components from a foreign entity of concern are excluded from the tax credit. (Page 374, line 20).
  13. One credit per vehicle. (Page 375, line 12)
  14. Modified gross income limit of $150k for individuals, $225k for head of household, and $300k for joint returns. Definition of MAGI (page 375, line 22)
  15. MSRP of vehicle must be $80k or less for SUVs, Vans and Trucks. $55k for all other vehicles. (Page 377, line 4)
  16. Dealer can apply credit at time of sale. Dealer must disclose to buyer the MSRP of the vehicle, the applicable tax credit amount and the amount of any other available incentive applicable to the purchase. (Page 378, line 6)
  17. Credit terminates December 31, 2032.
Used Vehicle Credit

  1. Tax credit of 30% of value of used EV with $4,000 cap (Page 387, line 23).
  2. Used vehicle must be at least two model years old at time of sale. (Page 389, line 7).
  3. The original use of the vehicle must have occurred with an individual other than the one claiming the used tax credit. (Page 389, line 10).
  4. Used vehicle must be purchased from a dealer. (Page 390, line 3).
  5. Used vehicle price must be $25k or less. (Page 390, line 5).
  6. Used vehicle qualifies for tax credit only once in its lifetime. (Page 390, line 7)
  7. Purchaser must be an individual (no businesses) to qualify for used credit. (Page 390, line 14).
  8. Purchaser may only claim one used vehicle credit per three years. (Page 390, line 20).
  9. Modified gross income cap of $75k for individuals, $112,500 for head of household and $150k for joint returns. (Page 388).
  10. Credit may be applied at time of sale by dealer. (Page 391, line 15).
  11. Credit terminates on December 31, 2032. (Page 391, line 12).
 
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NJPSU

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  1. MSRP of vehicle must be $80k or less for SUVs, Vans and Trucks. $55k for all other vehicles. (Page 377, line 4)
It will be interesting to see what they define as an SUV. Is a Tesla Model Y an SUV? Probably.


  • Caps income at $150k single or $300k joint income. So, WTF can afford a $50k car if they make only $150k a year?
You think most of these 20 something kids driving Tesla’s are making over $150k a year? They prioritize them over them over living arrangements at that age. My first real estate purchase was a condo and I was amazed back then how many residents were driving luxury cars that cost more than half as much as the condo they were living in.
 

bdgan

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2008
61,183
37,638
1
two general observations

the old tax credit is about up. They capped it at 200,000 cars per manufacturer and companies like Tesla have far exceeded that (GM too with the BOLT). So the new Green New Deal bill modifies and extends it. More on that later. There are a ton of EVs and PHEVs that are on the market, 2021s. Most have been driven less than 10,000 miles. I think people bought these cars, took the tax credit, and are selling them for a couple of thousand below purchase price. So you guy an EV for $55k, tale the credit making the car net $48k, then reselling it for $53k and making a profit of $5,500 and driving a car for a year for free.

The problem for them, now, is buying a $52k used EV/PHEV with no tax credit will be more expensive than buying a new one for $55k.

However, I am reading through the new proposed tax credit for EVs and PHEVs. A perfect case study in the govt screwing everything up. Group think that created such a mess it is next to impossible to navigate.

The new bill
  • Removes the 200,000 unit cap making even Teslas eligible. The problem is they cap the car value at $55k. Any car costing more than that is out. Have you priced cars recently? Any of the mid-grade EVs are more than that if you buy anything other than the base unit. You want leather? Larger wheels? Security package? Cold weather package? etc. You are out of luck with the Mustang, jeeps or Caddies.
  • Caps income at $150k single or $300k joint income. So, WTF can afford a $50k car if they make only $150k a year?
  • The car has to be made, in the majority, in the USA including the battery. That means almost all of the Korean, Japanese or Euro cars won't' qualify.
  • You can get a used EV/PHEM but it has to be less than $25k. Good luck with that.


Here is the bill, to the best I can tell:

New Vehicle Credit

  1. Manufacturer caps eliminated. (Page 370, line 15)
  2. Credit applies for vehicles purchased beginning January 1, 2023. (Page 386, line 1).
  3. Transition provision for EVs with written sales orders dated in 2022 prior to the date of President signing the bill but delivered in 2023 allows purchaser to claim the “old” credit in 2023. (Page 386, line 20).
  4. Vehicle must be assembled in North America to qualify for new credit. (Page 366, line 15).
  5. North American assembly requirement applies to vehicles sold after the date of adoption of the bill. (Page 386, line 3)
  6. $7,500 credit is broke into two binary pieces meaning the vehicle either qualifies for each piece of the credit or it doesn’t. No longer based on size of battery. (Page 366, line 6)
  7. $3,750 of the new credit is based upon the vehicle having at least 40% of its battery critical minerals from the United States or countries with a free trade agreement with the United States. This is a list of countries with free trade agreements with the US.(Page 371)
  8. The other $3,750 of the new credit is based on at least 50% of the battery components of the vehicle coming from the United States or countries with a free trade agreement with the US. (Page 372, line 13)
  9. The 40% minerals requirement increases to 50% in 2024, 60% in 2025, 70% in 2026 and 80% in 2027. (page 371 line 23)
  10. The 50% battery components requirement increases to 60% in 2024, 70% in 2026, 80% in 2027, 90% in 2028 and 100% in 2029. (Page line 373)
  11. The government has until the end of the year to develop guidance on the battery requirements. (Page 374)
  12. Beginning in 2025, any vehicle with battery minerals or components from a foreign entity of concern are excluded from the tax credit. (Page 374, line 20).
  13. One credit per vehicle. (Page 375, line 12)
  14. Modified gross income limit of $150k for individuals, $225k for head of household, and $300k for joint returns. Definition of MAGI (page 375, line 22)
  15. MSRP of vehicle must be $80k or less for SUVs, Vans and Trucks. $55k for all other vehicles. (Page 377, line 4)
  16. Dealer can apply credit at time of sale. Dealer must disclose to buyer the MSRP of the vehicle, the applicable tax credit amount and the amount of any other available incentive applicable to the purchase. (Page 378, line 6)
  17. Credit terminates December 31, 2032.
Used Vehicle Credit

  1. Tax credit of 30% of value of used EV with $4,000 cap (Page 387, line 23).
  2. Used vehicle must be at least two model years old at time of sale. (Page 389, line 7).
  3. The original use of the vehicle must have occurred with an individual other than the one claiming the used tax credit. (Page 389, line 10).
  4. Used vehicle must be purchased from a dealer. (Page 390, line 3).
  5. Used vehicle price must be $25k or less. (Page 390, line 5).
  6. Used vehicle qualifies for tax credit only once in its lifetime. (Page 390, line 7)
  7. Purchaser must be an individual (no businesses) to qualify for used credit. (Page 390, line 14).
  8. Purchaser may only claim one used vehicle credit per three years. (Page 390, line 20).
  9. Modified gross income cap of $75k for individuals, $112,500 for head of household and $150k for joint returns. (Page 388).
  10. Credit may be applied at time of sale by dealer. (Page 391, line 15).
  11. Credit terminates on December 31, 2032. (Page 391, line 12).
That's too much info for me to get my head around quickly.
  • If EVs were less expensive after gas savings people wouldn't need a tax credit to justify their purchase.
  • Why an I come limit? Doesn't pollution from higher income people count?
  • Tax credit for used EVs? Really? That car is already on the road. Can I buy an EV and get $7500, then resell it to my kid who can get another $4,000 credit on the same car? $11,500 total credit.
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
108,165
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That's too much info for me to get my head around quickly.
  • If EVs were less expensive after gas savings people wouldn't need a tax credit to justify their purchase.
  • Why an I come limit? Doesn't pollution from higher income people count?
  • Tax credit for used EVs? Really? That car is already on the road. Can I buy an EV and get $7500, then resell it to my kid who can get another $4,000 credit on the same car? $11,500 total credit. yes but has to be less than $25k

the reality is that you need a microscope to find available EVs. My neighbor waited six months for his Volvo. Tesla is booked. Kia, Hyundai, Caddy, GM, Genisis....all have significant waiting times for EVs.

The only thing I see is the Jeep 4xe is now cheaper, new (with the tax credit) than used. But you have to wait until 2023 and it has to be less than $55k.
 

LionDeNittany

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
45,964
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DFW, TX
the reality is that you need a microscope to find available EVs. My neighbor waited six months for his Volvo. Tesla is booked. Kia, Hyundai, Caddy, GM, Genisis....all have significant waiting times for EVs.

The only thing I see is the Jeep 4xe is now cheaper, new (with the tax credit) than used. But you have to wait until 2023 and it has to be less than $55k.

Hate to break it to you but for almost all new cars you need to wait several months.

A Lexus LX has a 18 month wait list right now. And it is selling for 50k over it's $100k MSRP in some places.
Used cars are selling for more than their new prices.

My GX I can flip after 18 months for a 5k profit.

The market is getting worse too.

LdN
 

jjw165

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2005
3,324
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My head just exploded. It’s going to take awhile for it to grow back.

giphy.gif
 
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Wandering Spectator

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Dec 17, 2017
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www.wanderingspectator.com
States (and the Feds) must be scrambling to find ways to make up for the continued erosion of gas tax revenue. That’s why the Biden admin was looking at a Mileage Tax for EVs. I would expect annual vehicle registration for EVs to increase dramatically soon - eating into any savings from gas.
 
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Obliviax

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Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
108,165
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Hate to break it to you but for almost all new cars you need to wait several months.

A Lexus LX has a 18 month wait list right now. And it is selling for 50k over it's $100k MSRP in some places.
Used cars are selling for more than their new prices.

My GX I can flip after 18 months for a 5k profit.

The market is getting worse too.

LdN
yep.

So my wife got the oil changed and they talked her into a coolant flush. We went away on vacation for a week. Ten days later, she takes the car on the first long drive and it overheats. In overheating, it blew the engine. We are looking at a five-digit repair. ($10k or more). So I am suddenly in the market.

I may just buy a $20k car for a year. But I may well be able to buy a new Wrangler 4xe for less than a used Wrangler Sahara. There are several available within a 200 mile radius. And if I can get the $7500 rebate, it would be substantially less (in the low to mid $40s when all is said and done).
 
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LionDeNittany

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yep.

So my wife got the oil changed and they talked her into a coolant flush. We went away on vacation for a week. Ten days later, she takes the car on the first long drive and it overheats. In overheating, it blew the engine. We are looking at a five-digit repair. ($10k or more). So I am suddenly in the market.

I may just buy a $20k car for a year. But I may well be able to buy a new Wrangler 4xe for less than a used Wrangler Sahara. There are several available within a 200 mile radius. And if I can get the $7500 rebate, it would be substantially less (in the low to mid $40s when all is said and done).

Yeah. I am in the market for 2 cars. One for a new driver and one simply to take down 15k of free money from my current lease.

New cars are cheaper than used in many situations. It's bizarre but also the time delay makes a difference.

LdN
 

NJPSU

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
44,101
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Hate to break it to you but for almost all new cars you need to wait several months.

A Lexus LX has a 18 month wait list right now. And it is selling for 50k over it's $100k MSRP in some places.
Used cars are selling for more than their new prices.

My GX I can flip after 18 months for a 5k profit.

The market is getting worse too.

LdN
Uh oh I was about to type the same response. We are on the same page. ;)
 

Obliviax

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Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
108,165
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Yeah. I am in the market for 2 cars. One for a new driver and one simply to take down 15k of free money from my current lease.

New cars are cheaper than used in many situations. It's bizarre but also the time delay makes a difference.

LdN
Agreed. There are some good deals out there for cars that haven't moved, for some reason. A friend told me that the car companies are still trying to keep production lines open so are still making less popular cars due to the cost of shutting down. You can get a decent price on a small/mid SUV from Nissan and Mazda right now.
 

MaconNitt

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Oct 18, 2016
2,704
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You also need to be careful of the sales people you deal with. They don't always know the tax implications. They just want to sell a car and get their commission.

I have seen this with the energy credits. HVAC and window companies are famous for touting the energy credits not knowing the buyers income tax situation. The elderly are often shocked when they do not get an energy credit when they file their taxes because they have less to no income tax if it is wiped out by the standard deduction. The energy credits are not refundable.
 
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Ski

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May 29, 2001
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yep.

So my wife got the oil changed and they talked her into a coolant flush. We went away on vacation for a week. Ten days later, she takes the car on the first long drive and it overheats. In overheating, it blew the engine. We are looking at a five-digit repair. ($10k or more). So I am suddenly in the market.

I may just buy a $20k car for a year. But I may well be able to buy a new Wrangler 4xe for less than a used Wrangler Sahara. There are several available within a 200 mile radius. And if I can get the $7500 rebate, it would be substantially less (in the low to mid $40s when all is said and done).

I don't know the make/model of your car, but 3 years ago I had a 6 year old car where something similar happened where my adopted daughter tried to drive it home while it was overheated and cracked the block.

I was able to buy a used motor off the internet and have it shipped from Indiana to Illinois for a total of $1250. I had it shipped directly to the car dealership I was working with and they swapped out the engines for just over $2000. I may have been able to get a better price on labor from another garage, but I have been using this dealer for service for 2 decades and they have always done okay by me.

I am someone that looks at cars simply as a tool to get from point A to point B, so I drive them until they are ready to go to the junkyard before I get a new one.
 

Obliviax

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Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
108,165
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I don't know the make/model of your car, but 3 years ago I had a 6 year old car where something similar happened where my adopted daughter tried to drive it home while it was overheated and cracked the block.

I was able to buy a used motor off the internet and have it shipped from Indiana to Illinois for a total of $1250. I had it shipped directly to the car dealership I was working with and they swapped out the engines for just over $2000. I may have been able to get a better price on labor from another garage, but I have been using this dealer for service for 2 decades and they have always done okay by me.

I am someone that looks at cars simply as a tool to get from point A to point B, so I drive them until they are ready to go to the junkyard before I get a new one.
Thanks...I am going to look this weekend. The car is fairly rare, a Range Rover, Land Rover HSE. The engine is an 8-cylinder and is fairly rare. I don't know if I'll have any luck. My brother recommended that and it is worth a try.

Used-2013-Land-Rover-Range-Rover-Sport-HSE-LUX-1569014187.jpg
 

LionDeNittany

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
45,964
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DFW, TX
Agreed. There are some good deals out there for cars that haven't moved, for some reason. A friend told me that the car companies are still trying to keep production lines open so are still making less popular cars due to the cost of shutting down. You can get a decent price on a small/mid SUV from Nissan and Mazda right now.

Yeah. That's true about some small SuVs. Some jeeps too.
 

NJPSU

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
44,101
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Thanks...I am going to look this weekend. The car is fairly rare, a Range Rover, Land Rover HSE. The engine is an 8-cylinder and is fairly rare. I don't know if I'll have any luck. My brother recommended that and it is worth a try.

Used-2013-Land-Rover-Range-Rover-Sport-HSE-LUX-1569014187.jpg
Land Rovers are generally known to have poor reliability.


Only 1 Luxury Car Is Rated Lower Than the Land Rover Lineup on Consumer Reports​

by Produced by Digital Editors | More Articles: SUVs
Published on
April 8, 2022
Although Land Rover is a luxury brand that’s pretty popular with many consumers, Land Rover cars haven’t received excellent ratings from Consumer Reports. With that being said, it’s not all bad news for the luxury automaker, as there is a single luxury car that’s received a worse rating. Here’s a look at some of the poorly-rated Land Rovers and why the Tesla Model X is rated worse than them.
 

bdgan

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May 29, 2008
61,183
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I'll keep my F-150 until it is Found On Road Dead.
That should be around 2030.
The F150 is very popular. Ford sells nearly 800,000 per year compared to Tesla who sells 300,000 of all models.

IMO pickup trucks make sense for people who haul a lot of stuff but I see a lot of people driving them that don't haul much more than their kids sports equipment. That seems very inefficient to me but people just love their trucks.
 
Last edited:

DandyDonII

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Oct 16, 2002
7,227
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anyone keeping updated on how Lucid is doing? Nice looking car, but hate risking that much money on a new car company.
 

Obliviax

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Aug 21, 2001
108,165
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anyone keeping updated on how Lucid is doing? Nice looking car, but hate risking that much money on a new car company.
Agreed. Plus, it is a sedan. I don't want to tie up that kind of money on a sedan as they are just not as versatile as an SUV
 

jjw165

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Jan 18, 2005
3,324
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anyone keeping updated on how Lucid is doing? Nice looking car, but hate risking that much money on a new car company.
I believe only their top end models are available currently ($179,000). The entry level and mid level cars will be available for purchase later this year starting at $77k. They have low production capacity, around 700 cars built in the 1st quarter of the year. There will be a long waiting list to buy one. All models just recently had a five figure price increase. They have $5.4B in cash on hand that is expected to get them through 2023. Of course, being a new company there isn’t a reliability record to go off.
 

Fac

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Jun 5, 2001
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The F150 is very popular. Ford sells nearly 800,000 per year compared to Tesla who sells 300,000 of all models.

IMO pickup trucks make sense for people who haul a lot of stuff but I see a lot of people driving them that don't haul much more than their kids sports equipment. That seems very inefficient to me but people just love their trucks.
I haul enough stuff to warrant it. You would be amazed at the leg/cargo room in the back seat area.
Also, but a soft cover for it when going on vacations.
I'll never go back to driving a car.
 
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DandyDonII

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Oct 16, 2002
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I haul enough stuff to warrant it. You would be amazed at the leg/cargo room in the back seat area.
Also, but a soft cover for it when going on vacations.
I'll never go back to driving a car.
So I am one of those guys who bought a truck but doesn't haul much, it's my first truck. Absolutely love it, the cabin is huge and well done, drives great on the freeways. Only downside is that the gas mileage has been a disappointing 17 mpg on mixed driving.
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
108,165
57,941
1
Land Rovers are generally known to have poor reliability.


Only 1 Luxury Car Is Rated Lower Than the Land Rover Lineup on Consumer Reports​

by Produced by Digital Editors | More Articles: SUVs
Published on
April 8, 2022
Although Land Rover is a luxury brand that’s pretty popular with many consumers, Land Rover cars haven’t received excellent ratings from Consumer Reports. With that being said, it’s not all bad news for the luxury automaker, as there is a single luxury car that’s received a worse rating. Here’s a look at some of the poorly-rated Land Rovers and why the Tesla Model X is rated worse than them.
I've seen those reports and my car has been a delight until now. 117k miles and not a hitch. I suspect the guys that did the radiator flush did it incorrectly but can't prove it. Just too much of a coincidence. But when you drive exotic cars.....one issue is that even if it is reliable, when it does break, it costs a ton. In my case, there are no engines to use.
 

SLUPSU

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2018
4,566
2,628
1
Thanks...I am going to look this weekend. The car is fairly rare, a Range Rover, Land Rover HSE. The engine is an 8-cylinder and is fairly rare. I don't know if I'll have any luck. My brother recommended that and it is worth a try.

Used-2013-Land-Rover-Range-Rover-Sport-HSE-LUX-1569014187.jpg

Have you seen this site.


 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
22,691
5,478
1
That's too much info for me to get my head around quickly.
  • If EVs were less expensive after gas savings people wouldn't need a tax credit to justify their purchase.
  • Why an I come limit? Doesn't pollution from higher income people count?
  • Tax credit for used EVs? Really? That car is already on the road. Can I buy an EV and get $7500, then resell it to my kid who can get another $4,000 credit on the same car? $11,500 total credit.
Why an income limit? We had listen over and over again under the old program about why did wealthy need a tax break for buying an ev.
 
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rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
22,691
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1
two general observations

the old tax credit is about up. They capped it at 200,000 cars per manufacturer and companies like Tesla have far exceeded that (GM too with the BOLT). So the new Green New Deal bill modifies and extends it. More on that later. There are a ton of EVs and PHEVs that are on the market, 2021s. Most have been driven less than 10,000 miles. I think people bought these cars, took the tax credit, and are selling them for a couple of thousand below purchase price. So you guy an EV for $55k, tale the credit making the car net $48k, then reselling it for $53k and making a profit of $5,500 and driving a car for a year for free.

The problem for them, now, is buying a $52k used EV/PHEV with no tax credit will be more expensive than buying a new one for $55k.

However, I am reading through the new proposed tax credit for EVs and PHEVs. A perfect case study in the govt screwing everything up. Group think that created such a mess it is next to impossible to navigate.

The new bill
  • Removes the 200,000 unit cap making even Teslas eligible. The problem is they cap the car value at $55k. Any car costing more than that is out. Have you priced cars recently? Any of the mid-grade EVs are more than that if you buy anything other than the base unit. You want leather? Larger wheels? Security package? Cold weather package? etc. You are out of luck with the Mustang, jeeps or Caddies.
  • Caps income at $150k single or $300k joint income. So, WTF can afford a $50k car if they make only $150k a year?
  • The car has to be made, in the majority, in the USA including the battery. That means almost all of the Korean, Japanese or Euro cars won't' qualify.
  • You can get a used EV/PHEM but it has to be less than $25k. Good luck with that.


Here is the bill, to the best I can tell:

New Vehicle Credit

  1. Manufacturer caps eliminated. (Page 370, line 15)
  2. Credit applies for vehicles purchased beginning January 1, 2023. (Page 386, line 1).
  3. Transition provision for EVs with written sales orders dated in 2022 prior to the date of President signing the bill but delivered in 2023 allows purchaser to claim the “old” credit in 2023. (Page 386, line 20).
  4. Vehicle must be assembled in North America to qualify for new credit. (Page 366, line 15).
  5. North American assembly requirement applies to vehicles sold after the date of adoption of the bill. (Page 386, line 3)
  6. $7,500 credit is broke into two binary pieces meaning the vehicle either qualifies for each piece of the credit or it doesn’t. No longer based on size of battery. (Page 366, line 6)
  7. $3,750 of the new credit is based upon the vehicle having at least 40% of its battery critical minerals from the United States or countries with a free trade agreement with the United States. This is a list of countries with free trade agreements with the US.(Page 371)
  8. The other $3,750 of the new credit is based on at least 50% of the battery components of the vehicle coming from the United States or countries with a free trade agreement with the US. (Page 372, line 13)
  9. The 40% minerals requirement increases to 50% in 2024, 60% in 2025, 70% in 2026 and 80% in 2027. (page 371 line 23)
  10. The 50% battery components requirement increases to 60% in 2024, 70% in 2026, 80% in 2027, 90% in 2028 and 100% in 2029. (Page line 373)
  11. The government has until the end of the year to develop guidance on the battery requirements. (Page 374)
  12. Beginning in 2025, any vehicle with battery minerals or components from a foreign entity of concern are excluded from the tax credit. (Page 374, line 20).
  13. One credit per vehicle. (Page 375, line 12)
  14. Modified gross income limit of $150k for individuals, $225k for head of household, and $300k for joint returns. Definition of MAGI (page 375, line 22)
  15. MSRP of vehicle must be $80k or less for SUVs, Vans and Trucks. $55k for all other vehicles. (Page 377, line 4)
  16. Dealer can apply credit at time of sale. Dealer must disclose to buyer the MSRP of the vehicle, the applicable tax credit amount and the amount of any other available incentive applicable to the purchase. (Page 378, line 6)
  17. Credit terminates December 31, 2032.
Used Vehicle Credit

  1. Tax credit of 30% of value of used EV with $4,000 cap (Page 387, line 23).
  2. Used vehicle must be at least two model years old at time of sale. (Page 389, line 7).
  3. The original use of the vehicle must have occurred with an individual other than the one claiming the used tax credit. (Page 389, line 10).
  4. Used vehicle must be purchased from a dealer. (Page 390, line 3).
  5. Used vehicle price must be $25k or less. (Page 390, line 5).
  6. Used vehicle qualifies for tax credit only once in its lifetime. (Page 390, line 7)
  7. Purchaser must be an individual (no businesses) to qualify for used credit. (Page 390, line 14).
  8. Purchaser may only claim one used vehicle credit per three years. (Page 390, line 20).
  9. Modified gross income cap of $75k for individuals, $112,500 for head of household and $150k for joint returns. (Page 388).
  10. Credit may be applied at time of sale by dealer. (Page 391, line 15).
  11. Credit terminates on December 31, 2032. (Page 391, line 12).
Take a look at the Chevy Bolt. They start around 27k.
 

pawrestlersintn

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2013
16,070
23,816
1
The F150 is very popular. Ford sells nearly 800,000 per year compared to Tesla who sells 300,000 of all models.

IMO pickup trucks make sense for people who haul a lot of stuff but I see a lot of people driving them that don't haul much more than their kids sports equipment. That seems very inefficient to me but people just love their trucks.
Keeping an F150 around, sitting mostly idle, so I never have to strap a deer across the back of a Dodge Intrepid and drive back into the neighborhood. That was when my wife said, "You need a truck."
 
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bdgan

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2008
61,183
37,638
1
Why an income limit? We had listen over and over again under the old program about why did wealthy need a tax break for buying an ev.
My carbon emissions are just as much of an issue as your carbkn emissions. Everybody should get a tax break or nobody should. Dems are proving this is more about social engineering than it is about the environment.
 
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jjw165

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2005
3,324
3,479
1
Lucid Air Dream edition
- Used to be $169k, now up to 179k.
- 1,111 HP
- 0-60 in 2.6s
 
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kickerinaz

Well-Known Member
Sep 3, 2016
1,690
952
1
My vehicles are pathetically utilitarian : except none of the 3 got over 17 MPG. Enter a pristine used prius. 7,750.00 and about 47 mpg. Recommended.
 

Sullivan

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2001
17,005
13,069
1
  1. MSRP of vehicle must be $80k or less for SUVs, Vans and Trucks. $55k for all other vehicles. (Page 377, line 4)
It will be interesting to see what they define as an SUV. Is a Tesla Model Y an SUV? Probably.


  • Caps income at $150k single or $300k joint income. So, WTF can afford a $50k car if they make only $150k a year?
You think most of these 20 something kids driving Tesla’s are making over $150k a year? They prioritize them over them over living arrangements at that age. My first real estate purchase was a condo and I was amazed back then how many residents were driving luxury cars that cost more than half as much as the condo they were living in.

This is coming from the guy who hasn’t ever made 6 figures in a year 😲
 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
22,691
5,478
1
My carbon emissions are just as much of an issue as your carbkn emissions. Everybody should get a tax break or nobody should. Dems are proving this is more about social engineering than it is about the environment.

It doesn't really matter does it? If they income limit it then people will whine that it's not fair. If they don't then people will whine that wealthy people don't' need subsidies.
 

bdgan

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2008
61,183
37,638
1
It doesn't really matter does it? If they income limit it then people will whine that it's not fair. If they don't then people will whine that wealthy people don't' need subsidies.
Of course it matters. My emissions count just as much as your emissions.
 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
22,691
5,478
1
anyone keeping updated on how Lucid is doing? Nice looking car, but hate risking that much money on a new car company.

The cars appear to be pretty good. Very expensive and they aren't making very many of them.

Long term I'm not sure if they will be a serious EV company or not. The Saudi Arabia Public Investment Fund owns the majority of the company. They have announce plans to build a second manufacturing facility in wait for it...... Saudi Arabia. Hmmm, I wonder why? I think this a terrible idea - they will need to import labor from other countries to work in the factory, import almost all the components as the Saudis don't' have any domestic auto suppliers, and then they will need to export most of the cars.

Their business plan looks to me like a great way to incinerate large piles of money. That doesn't necessarily mean they will go under as the Saudis can choose to just keep shoveling money into the company. I wouldn't describe what they are doing as a great EV business strategy.
 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
22,691
5,478
1
My vehicles are pathetically utilitarian : except none of the 3 got over 17 MPG. Enter a pristine used prius. 7,750.00 and about 47 mpg. Recommended.

How did you pick one up that cheap?

A few months ago I looked at 5 year old prius C with 42,000 miles on it, the price was outrageous.
 

roswelllion

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 18, 2003
9,747
8,678
1
the reality is that you need a microscope to find available EVs. My neighbor waited six months for his Volvo. Tesla is booked. Kia, Hyundai, Caddy, GM, Genisis....all have significant waiting times for EVs.

The only thing I see is the Jeep 4xe is now cheaper, new (with the tax credit) than used. But you have to wait until 2023 and it has to be less than $55k.
"You need a microscope to find available EV's". Why do we need incentives then?
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
108,165
57,941
1
"You need a microscope to find available EV's". Why do we need incentives then?
agreed...but the point is that the car manufacturers simply can't make enough cars to keep up with demand. That isn't specific to EVs.
 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
22,691
5,478
1
agreed...but the point is that the car manufacturers simply can't make enough cars to keep up with demand. That isn't specific to EVs.

True.

June 28 (Reuters) - Cox Automotive on Tuesday lowered its U.S. auto sales forecast for 2022, as analysts at both Cox and Carmax-owned Edmunds.com said continued supply chain disruptions will leave dealers short of new vehicles for the foreseeable future.​
Cox dropped its full-year forecast to 14.4 million vehicles from 15.3 million, but forecast a slight month-to-month uptick in sales in June.​
 

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