so cass beats shultz last year. shultz higher ranked this year.

razpsu

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So Who has Shultz wrestled this year. I get that he is 18-0 but who did he wrestle and some scores are very close. Meanwhile kerk cass parris beat the hell out of one another and banged their head against gable. So how is Shultz number 2. THat to me is a mistake in the system.
 
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amattaro

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good-morning-ollie-good-morning-gorgeous.gif
 

PSU Mike

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Trust me, you’re gonna kill yourself taking a single outcome, particularly from a year ago, and trying to build an algorithm that results in no contradictions in a set of ranks/seeds.
 

El-Jefe

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I actually agree with the substance of this.

Not anything from previous years, that's irrelevant.

But if we're gonna generate seeds from a hyper-convoluted simulation, then the Quality Wins component should also reflect bonus points, and better still bonus against good competition.

Meaning:
Majoring #30 > dec #30
Beating #10 > pinning #30
MD #10 > dec #10
Pinning #10 > dec #5

Etc.

Modifying the sim this way isn't difficult. Just need to define the tiers.
 

El-Jefe

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Shultz deserves 4th. Kerk deserves 3rd. I have no idea what the committee was thinking. Shultz's top conquest was Jordan Wood.
The committee doesn't think. They run a simulation.

In the sim, Kerk loses points to every wrestler ranked above him by the coaches, every conference finalist, and to unbeaten wrestlers. Schultz was all 3.

The system has issues but it's in place to absolve the committee from applying unpopular judgment.
 

psudotedu

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The seeding matrix would've worked fine if Schultz had actually wrestled Kerkvliet when he was scheduled to. That is the missing piece here.
The problem is forfeits, ducks, and no shows and receiving no consequences. There needs to be a seeding consequence for skipping scheduled matches.
 
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El-Jefe

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IMHO the Committee did their job, Jones OTOH jobbed the system. Usually I don't think this is the case when wrestlers miss a match or two, but it in this case I do.
IDK, the committee saw fit to not sure the 0:01 MFFs. But I get that they wouldn't feel the leeway to make that kind of judgment about Schutlz ducking Kerk -- and let's not forget also ducking Parris.

Between this and the conference tourney MFFs, the rules committee is gonna have their hands full in the next review cycle -- at least they will if they're doing their jobs.
 

El-Jefe

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Getting pinned by an opponent should count for something.
Why? Losing by fall doesn't count for anything at nationals.

I'd rather see a system where scoring is rewarded, not a system where preventing scoring is rewarded.
 

amattaro

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Find a way to incorporate rankings and reward the guys who step on the mat. IDGAF if Schultz had a torn labrum, a torn labia, or was scurred because he heard Kerk was going to put a RBY-Desanto toe job on him. Kerk showed up. He gets rewarded, and it propagates through to Cass who beat Kerk 2x. Same goes for Seabass v Lee in regular season. Figure out how to weight these things. Make it so.
 

tikk10

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There was an opportunity here to disincentivize ducking of the seed-protection sort that occurred when Schultz weighed in and then didn't take the mat against Kerkvliet. I get that there's a formula that gives everyone cover for unpopular results, and ducking isn't part of that stew, but (a) Schultz probably shouldn't be seeded second for not having as many quality matches--there was cover to drop him; and (b) by not disincentivizing it, you're effectively incentivizing it, and we'll just wind up seeing more gamesmanship that results in fewer top tier matches.

The coaches are diminishing the overall product by acting in their own self/team-interest with respect to matches, then, appearances issues notwithstanding, they get to validate their own conduct when seeding time comes along, because when are they ever going to punish their own for conduct they themselves might want to participate in. If we're all hypocrites, none of us are hypocrites.
 

BMonks3

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just a tough thing to monitor/penalize. You have the Schultz situation (weighed in, wearing headgear ready to go pulled last minute), you have guys getting hurt in matches and MFF rest of tourny (iowa at BIGs, rivera), then you have guys sitting out duals (nick lee rutgers when i believe sick/covid protocol, cstar a couple matches w wrist, etc.) and its hard to lump them all into one bucket and certainly all shouldnt be punished the same way.

then you open the door for a coach to just say yeah XYZ wrestler is sick cant go today vs. the #2 seed he was scheduled bc sick.. really tough to penalize this
 

johnstownsteel

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You still confident in PSU taking home the gold? I can see 6 in the Semi’s , but might be tough to get all 4 from last year back into championship

Hope the 3 others can get to round of 12 or better
Yeah I’m pretty confident they will get it done. I think we get 4 back to championship match. May not be same 4 though. I think outside shot of 5. Yes… I’m a homer! Lol
 

ss7

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just a tough thing to monitor/penalize. You have the Schultz situation (weighed in, wearing headgear ready to go pulled last minute), you have guys getting hurt in matches and MFF rest of tourny (iowa at BIGs, rivera), then you have guys sitting out duals (nick lee rutgers when i believe sick/covid protocol, cstar a couple matches w wrist, etc.) and its hard to lump them all into one bucket and certainly all shouldnt be punished the same way.

then you open the door for a coach to just say yeah XYZ wrestler is sick cant go today vs. the #2 seed he was scheduled bc sick.. really tough to penalize this
I don't want the coaches/seeding committee to be in the business of deciding which missed matches need to be "punished" and which are "legitimate". And I bet they don't want to either.

The system is never going to be perfect. And if a wrestler is good enough to go otherwise undefeated while "ducking" 1 or 2 matches, and then win his conference tournament, that wrestler is probably going to be seeded better than a guy who takes a couple of losses and doesn't win his conference tournament.
 

5q

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Yeah I’m pretty confident they will get it done. I think we get 4 back to championship match. May not be same 4 though. I think outside shot of 5. Yes… I’m a homer! Lol
Both my Parents grew up in J town (west end). All my uncles worked at Beth-um-steel (how they say it to this day). versus Beth-La-hem steel. All my extended family is there. So I always appreciate seeing your handle
 
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El-Jefe

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Find a way to incorporate rankings and reward the guys who step on the mat. IDGAF if Schultz had a torn labrum, a torn labia, or was scurred because he heard Kerk was going to put a RBY-Desanto toe job on him. Kerk showed up. He gets rewarded, and it propagates through to Cass who beat Kerk 2x. Same goes for Seabass v Lee in regular season. Figure out how to weight these things. Make it so.
Schultz is ranked higher than Kerk, so "incorporate rankings" is not a solution.
 

johnstownsteel

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Both my Parents grew up in J town (west end). All my uncles worked at Beth-um-steel (how they say it to this day). versus Beth-La-hem steel. All my extended family is there. So I always appreciate seeing your handle
Why thank you. Long line of steel workers in my family. Most worked for US Steel. I never worked at the mill, they were in their way out by then but my step dad took me in one time when I was younger and I knew immediately I didn’t want to do that when I got older. Lol.
 
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amattaro

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Schultz is ranked higher than Kerk, so "incorporate rankings" is not a solution.
He was ranked higher and did not wrestle. Ergo Kerk gets a reward for it as he presented himself for the higher ranked wrestler. Depending on the weighting, a number of ducks offsets higher ranking. I ain’t saying it’s perfect, but it is something to explore. As it stands a ducker gets a double bonus: they don’t get punished and the opponent gets no opportunity to improve ranking.
 

nittinsc

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Why thank you. Long line of steel workers in my family. Most worked for US Steel. I never worked at the mill, they were in their way out by then but my step dad took me in one time when I was younger and I knew immediately I didn’t want to do that when I got older. Lol.
My grandfather (53), father (46) and myself (9) had 108 years combined with USS and it's predecessors. I was the only one to work on the floor, Grandpa and Dad were smarter.
 

CJFisJoePaII

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You still confident in PSU taking home the gold? I can see 6 in the Semi’s , but might be tough to get all 4 from last year back into championship

Hope the 3 others can get to round of 12 or better

Yea, but PSU has a 5th likely finalist not from last year in Dean. Both PSU and scUM had 5 finalists at B1Gs - of the two, PSU has an infinitely better chance at replicating 5 Finalists at Nationals. scUM will not have more than 2 imho.
 

CJFisJoePaII

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Yeah I’m pretty confident they will get it done. I think we get 4 back to championship match. May not be same 4 though. I think outside shot of 5. Yes… I’m a homer! Lol

Homer???? PSU has 4 #1 Seeds and a #2 Seed.... - I'd say PSU has a very realistic shot of sending 5 to Finals.
 

johnstownsteel

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Homer???? PSU has 4 #1 Seeds and a #2 Seed.... - I'd say PSU has a very realistic shot of sending 5 to Finals.
I’m working while trying to keep up with the board. I was in between thinking about number of finalists and actual champions. I think we have anywhere from 3-5 champions. I think realistically we send 4 to finals but possibly 5. That last sentence I meant to say I thought we even have an outside shot at 5 Champs.
 

District four

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There was an opportunity here to disincentivize ducking of the seed-protection sort that occurred when Schultz weighed in and then didn't take the mat against Kerkvliet. I get that there's a formula that gives everyone cover for unpopular results, and ducking isn't part of that stew, but (a) Schultz probably shouldn't be seeded second for not having as many quality matches--there was cover to drop him; and (b) by not disincentivizing it, you're effectively incentivizing it, and we'll just wind up seeing more gamesmanship that results in fewer top tier matches.

The coaches are diminishing the overall product by acting in their own self/team-interest with respect to matches, then, appearances issues notwithstanding, they get to validate their own conduct when seeding time comes along, because when are they ever going to punish their own for conduct they themselves might want to participate in. If we're all hypocrites, none of us are hypocrites.
Here's a question match was out of reach he doesn't wrestle Kerk. Would he have ducked Kerk if the match started at 285 hmmmmm
 

liex26

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The seeding matrix would've worked fine if Schultz had actually wrestled Kerkvliet when he was scheduled to. That is the missing piece here.
The problem is forfeits, ducks, and no shows and receiving no consequences. There needs to be a seeding consequence for skipping scheduled matches.
As a wrestling community we have to change our mindset on injuries and illness. Currently nobody wants an injured or sick wrestler to have extra consequences like damage to their record.... etc.

Coaches are all taking advantage of what was once considered gaming the system. Now it's just what you do.

In a dual format coaches should have to submit a starting lineup prior to the dual. If a wrestler doesn't compete a loss will be on his/her record.
If a wrestler is listed as injured or sick, you could do like baseball and have a minimum number of matches he/she is required to miss or the option above could be used and take the L.

There is this attitude around wrestling that the fans aren't owed anything. It's part of what holds this sport back. We had some discussion about making the trip from Iowa to PSU whenever they get the B1G championships again. Most won't make the trip. Between the flight, hotel, food, alcohol, and time off work. It can be a bit pricey. Then, it's not just that some matches didn't happen, it's that they didn't happen because they didn't really matter.

We really enjoyed ourselves, but it was kind of bitter having to explain to new fans what was happening at the finals. For one of the oldest sports in the world it seems like there is still some major flaws and politics going on.

/rant
 

El-Jefe

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As a wrestling community we have to change our mindset on injuries and illness. Currently nobody wants an injured or sick wrestler to have extra consequences like damage to their record.... etc.

Coaches are all taking advantage of what was once considered gaming the system. Now it's just what you do.

In a dual format coaches should have to submit a starting lineup prior to the dual. If a wrestler doesn't compete a loss will be on his/her record.
If a wrestler is listed as injured or sick, you could do like baseball and have a minimum number of matches he/she is required to miss or the option above could be used and take the L.

There is this attitude around wrestling that the fans aren't owed anything. It's part of what holds this sport back. We had some discussion about making the trip from Iowa to PSU whenever they get the B1G championships again. Most won't make the trip. Between the flight, hotel, food, alcohol, and time off work. It can be a bit pricey. Then, it's not just that some matches didn't happen, it's that they didn't happen because they didn't really matter.

We really enjoyed ourselves, but it was kind of bitter having to explain to new fans what was happening at the finals. For one of the oldest sports in the world it seems like there is still some major flaws and politics going on.

/rant

It's a function of the conference tourney/allocation setup.

Give all conferences 1 auto-qualifier -- the champ -- everybody else subject to at-large bids. And make the conference tourneys single elimination. Suddenly the regular season matters a ton more. And say goodbye to conference tourney MFFs.

Not that I expect the NCAA to do anything like this.
 

razpsu

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If he had his headgear on and ready and then bailed the committee should have noticed that.