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SIAP: why the F was Noah not playing?

N&B4PSU

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Was Cain injured? Did he mouth off to the coaches? Did he threaten to enter the portal? Seriously, 1 JB run (and it was a great one) aside, was there anyone better at RB than Cain? He was in the groove, the offense was clicking... and after the TD (his second)... he stood on the sidelines with a WTF look the rest of the game.

I tried reading thru a bunch of threads but this wasn't addressed (although several of my buds were asking about it). So... maybe the rest of you saw something he wasn't doing right? I didn't, but maybe I missed it. Or maybe he got injured. I dunno.

Any insight here is welcome. [Why do I suspect there's a need to play 'em all so none of them gets pissed and transfers?]
 
Was Cain injured? Did he mouth off to the coaches? Did he threaten to enter the portal? Seriously, 1 JB run (and it was a great one) aside, was there anyone better at RB than Cain? He was in the groove, the offense was clicking... and after the TD (his second)... he stood on the sidelines with a WTF look the rest of the game.

I tried reading thru a bunch of threads but this wasn't addressed (although several of my buds were asking about it). So... maybe the rest of you saw something he wasn't doing right? I didn't, but maybe I missed it. Or maybe he got injured. I dunno.

Any insight here is welcome. [Why do I suspect there's a need to play 'em all so none of them gets pissed and transfers?]
His absence was baffling to me. Cain accounted for 53 yards on his one solitary drive, then pffft, he's banished to the bench. It was our only sustained drive of the game. Mind numbing ...
 
His absence was baffling to me. Cain accounted for 53 yards on his one solitary drive, then pffft, he's banished to the bench. It was our only sustained drive of the game. Mind numbing ...
It was the only time we looked as if we had a gameplan that didn't go like... ok, maybe maybe maybe one of our studs breaks one and we score! Think JB's run... he made that happen on his own (not some great blocking or scheming.. that was all JB.. and if #5 was faster and Brown didn't need to adjust by slowingt down, he likely scores).

So I agree with you... why don't I feel better?
 
Even more baffling if you listened to the post game press conference. Sounds like playing time is predetermined although Franklin said maybe Cain should have been in for the final series as he isn't a home run hitter but manages to fall forward for 4-6 yards.
Cripes... thankfully I missed that dungheap by being on the road. If that's his REAL answer we have serious issues.
 
Even more baffling if you listened to the post game press conference. Sounds like playing time is predetermined although Franklin said maybe Cain should have been in for the final series as he isn't a home run hitter but manages to fall forward for 4-6 yards.
The same Noah Cain who ran a 4.4 40 in HS (likely faster now)... and was offered by everybody not named alabama? The #6 RB in the nation as a senior. That guy isn't a homerun hitter... and why do we care if he can move the chains with him lugging the rock?

Something isn't adding up... I'm thinking portal fears.... specifically Ford.
 
The same Noah Cain who ran a 4.4 40 in HS (likely faster now)... and was offered by everybody not named alabama? The #6 RB in the nation as a senior. That guy isn't a homerun hitter... and why do we care if he can move the chains with him lugging the rock?

Something isn't adding up... I'm thinking portal fears.... specifically Ford.
They recruited two national Top 100 backs in the same class. This a year after bringing in a Top 100 guy in Slade. The portal was always a significant risk.
 
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Was Cain injured? Did he mouth off to the coaches? Did he threaten to enter the portal? Seriously, 1 JB run (and it was a great one) aside, was there anyone better at RB than Cain? He was in the groove, the offense was clicking... and after the TD (his second)... he stood on the sidelines with a WTF look the rest of the game.

I tried reading thru a bunch of threads but this wasn't addressed (although several of my buds were asking about it). So... maybe the rest of you saw something he wasn't doing right? I didn't, but maybe I missed it. Or maybe he got injured. I dunno.

Any insight here is welcome. [Why do I suspect there's a need to play 'em all so none of them gets pissed and transfers?]

Looks like Ricky Rahne is going to have some explaining to do.
Per JF's PC...

Franklin said:
  • He specifically said to Rahne (over the phone) that Cain should be running the ball at the end of the game
  • He said that PSU needed to be utilizing the screen pass.
Hmmmm.....
 
They recruited two national Top 100 backs in the same class. This a year after bringing in a Top 100 guy in Slade. The portal was always a significant risk.
Agree but with an asterisk. The portal thing is relatively new and now trendy. A couple years ago, it wasn't.

This team better figure it out fast. Accept the limitations and jettison the 3rd string guys if they can't match up. Slade -- imo -- has not shown much at all this year. Ford looks to be a home run hitter, so maybe he needs more PT. But i think coach is worrying that potential 4/5 star recruit get nervoius seeing a 3 star guy like JB as the starter.

Or maybe he isn't. And maybe he watched the same game and thought Cain wasn't all that. And while I trust him and his prowess and instincts, I also trust my eyes. Noah Cain is (and certainly so if JB is injured) our best RB. Play him.

In my opinion, of course.
 
Looks like Ricky Rahne is going to have some explaining to do.
Per JF's PC...

Franklin said:
  • He specifically said to Rahne (over the phone) that Cain should be running the ball at the end of the game
  • He said that PSU needed to be utilizing the screen pass.
Hmmmm.....

I'm trying to imagine my boss telling me we ought to be doing xyz at a critical juncture and I don't do it... at least not without giving said boss a pretty good explanation. Maybe Ricky has one. Even so, if I'm da boss and I want Cain, i'm not *suggesting* sheiss... I'm making sure it's done.

Wait... we have a screen pass? Have we utilized that since the days of yore under JoePa?
 
I'm trying to imagine my boss telling me we ought to be doing xyz at a critical juncture and I don't do it... at least not without giving said boss a pretty good explanation. Maybe Ricky has one. Even so, if I'm da boss and I want Cain, i'm not *suggesting* sheiss... I'm making sure it's done.

Wait... we have a screen pass? Have we utilized that since the days of yore under JoePa?

This. I didn't hear Franklin's post game press conference so I don't want to overreact to a poster's paraphrase of his comments. But, if what was posted is accurate, that is very disturbing. You're the head coach!! You're not like us message board geniuses who think we have all the answers and are just frustrated that we can't get anyone to listen. Why don't you say "Cain is playing"? And "run a freakin screen pass"? Like, in the moment, at the very time it's happening. Not after the fact as if you were just some bystander on the sidelines who wasn't allowed to say anything. Very disappointing if true.
 
Franklin mentioned 2 things that I NEEDED to hear in the the PC. Sure, they were obvious to any fan, but I'm really beginning to question our coaches so I was not sure he would mention it.

1. We need to defend the screen better and we need to find the screen play in our offense
2. We need to be better on 3rd down on both offense and defense

Now, his ability to do more than merely talk about these things and actually put them into action is yet to be determined. These have been truths of his teams since as long as I can remember.
 
Franklin mentioned 2 things that I NEEDED to hear in the the PC. Sure, they were obvious to any fan, but I'm really beginning to question our coaches so I was not sure he would mention it.

1. We need to defend the screen better and we need to find the screen play in our offense
2. We need to be better on 3rd down on both offense and defense

Now, his ability to do more than merely talk about these things and actually put them into action is yet to be determined. These have been truths of his teams since as long as I can remember.

Yep. Actions speak louder than words. I believe he said the same thing about improved 3rd downs on both sides of the ball to the reporter on the field before the game. In one series yesterday, with Pitt backed up to their own end zone, we gave up 2 3rd and longs. It's gotten to the point that I feel much more comfortable that we're going to stop them when it's 3rd and 5 or shorter.
 
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Cain looks like he should get the bulk of the carries at this juncture of the season. It looks like he complements the struggling OL the best. I’ll take his power and shiftiness at this point over any of the home run backs. Although, the guy runs a 4.5 and he looked plenty fast on his out pattern and the TD run. Cain hopefully will be the guy in BIG play.

In the second half, we ran a couple two back sets (one RB ran in motion) and was able to gain some positive yardage by stretching out the defense. Why were they so quick to drop that?

Journey/Cain and Slade/Ford seem two solid duos you could run out in those formations.
 
Cain certainly played well, but I still think Brown is our best back and should get the bulk of the playing time.
 
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My problem with yesterday is that when Cain was in there, the offense was finally in rhythm and playing well. And the very next series when they had a chance to put Pitt away with another score, they changed the offense.
The offense was finally working, why not stick with it for a couple more series.
Too often this offensive staff outthinks itself and is constantly tinkering and giving different looks.
After PSU scored the TD in the 3rd, and the D got the ball back, it was time to put the hammer down and crush Pitt like a bug.
Instead they fiddled around and wasted several possessions and let Pitt hang around.
That was not the time to change things up again, they just had their best drive of the game, they should have stuck with what was working.
Too often this staff lets teams off the hook. And not just yesterday.
They had Pitt on the ropes in the 3rd, they needed to go for the jugular and put them away.
The offensive coaching staff needs to have a more of a killer instinct.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad we have Franklin, but the past couple of years this has been a problem.
 
The same Noah Cain who ran a 4.4 40 in HS (likely faster now)... and was offered by everybody not named alabama? The #6 RB in the nation as a senior. That guy isn't a homerun hitter... and why do we care if he can move the chains with him lugging the rock?

Something isn't adding up... I'm thinking portal fears.... specifically Ford.
I think what it really comes down to is offensive philosophy. Moorehead’s system (we are still running his offense without him) is predicated on the big, explosive play. It’s why you always hear James Franklin talk about number of explosive plays (20 yards+) in his pressers. It’s also why we threw a 40 yard bomb once every set of downs yesterday. Journey Brown is the fastest of the four and probably gives you the best chance for an explosive play. Noah Cain is viewed more as a 3 yards and cloud of dust guy.

You can agree or disagree with the philosophy, but I think that explains a lot.
 
I think what it really comes down to is offensive philosophy. Moorehead’s system (we are still running his offense without him) is predicated on the big, explosive play. It’s why you always hear James Franklin talk about number of explosive plays (20 yards+) in his pressers. It’s also why we threw a 40 yard bomb once every set of downs yesterday. Journey Brown is the fastest of the four and probably gives you the best chance for an explosive play. Noah Cain is viewed more as a 3 yards and cloud of dust guy.

You can agree or disagree with the philosophy, but I think that explains a lot.
I think you hit it on the head... but I've seen little to make me think we are going to win this way during league play. I have not seen the speed from Slade I saw last year (whether that is real or not I can't say.. he just doesn't seem to have that extra gear). Ford has it but is too raw. Journey surely has it and he has shown he can do it. but the competition has not been that impressive.

I'd rather see a steady diet of Cain and Journey to hammer tha a bit and set up for some big plays in the 2nd half. Slade in the open field is a weapon. But that's my philosophy, lol.

I'm hopeful 2 weeks of prep will clean up a lot of things on both sides of the ball. Then again, that has not typically been the case here.
 
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Another thing about Cain is that he didn't look to be a liability when blocking in the pass game. That is reason #1 why a lot of TF RB's don't see early playing time. After that drive I thought that they were finally going to wear down the Pitt defense and start putting up points. Boy was I wrong. Mind numbing why he didn't get back into the game.
 
The same Noah Cain who ran a 4.4 40 in HS (likely faster now)... and was offered by everybody not named alabama? The #6 RB in the nation as a senior. That guy isn't a homerun hitter... and why do we care if he can move the chains with him lugging the rock?

Something isn't adding up... I'm thinking portal fears.... specifically Ford.

Ford did a fine job the game yesterday. I think Cain, Ford and Journey are all good, and better than Slade.
 
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Disclaimer: I am not a football coach, so please help me see what I am missing.

We usually passed on first down (often deep), then called a run, and then had an unmanageable third and long. It seemed like Pitt knew what we were going to call. Did they steal our signals or did we mail them the game-plan to make it a fair fight?

Run blocking is the thing that is truly baffling to me. It's been this way since adopting the RPO, so how about if the experts help me understand....

Watch the 3rd and 2 after the Clifford "slide." Walker blocks inside, leaving the defensive end free. Ford runs it right behind the left guard but Clifford isn't moving to that side, so there is no "read" to freeze the defensive end, who makes the play. All three linebackers are in tight and playing run. Clifford looked like he checked off several times. What was he seeing? I raise this because it isn't an isolated instance. This has been going on since Moorhead showed up.

Why did it take most of the game to call plays like we saw during the Cain series, and then why did we abandon it after it worked?

Looked like Pitt was run-blitzing, or at least using all three linebackers to stop the run on most downs with one-on-one pass coverage. Why are we not using Freiermuth, Chisena, or Kuntz to make them pay in that area of the field? Seems like when these guys get a pass it is behind the line of scrimmage or deep.
 
In the BIG we can definitely use four backs. Until Slade can resolve his fumbling risks, he will lose snaps. Guys are also going to get dinged up during the season. There should be enough reps to go around.
The problems I have with the offense are related ; the lack of possessions and the lack of commitment to run, even when it is working. These guys are all playmakers and like we saw yesterday with Brown’s long run, big plays can be unexpected. Fewer plays means fewer chances for big plays. An offense that is obsessed with creating big plays is high risk / high reward can lose you games when you have a lead, examples last year being tOSU and MSU.
 
To me, it's becoming simple. Use Slade as a receiver (dude is great in the open and he catches the ball) and sometimes outer edge RB. Period. JB can do several things so leave him be. Ford can go 0-100 at anytime... leave him be.

Then there is Cain. He can smashmouth and he finds seams and he can break tackles and he can catch the ball and he can block and he can... well, you get my point. THIS is (easily seen) your RB and everyone else works around him. If you're a po'd soph or jr... please feel free to enter the portal and see where it spins for you.

This team needs to zero in on the guy who can get them wins. It's Cain. JB and Slade and Ford can all contribute but their roles require definition.

IMO, of course, Coaches and those with more knowledge will certainly weigh in and explain why I'm wrong. I might be. But I've been around this game a very long time and this team needs an identity... they have none. As in NONE (after 3 games). Start JB and Cain and work in the rest. I'm betting it works just fine.
 
I think what it really comes down to is offensive philosophy. Moorehead’s system (we are still running his offense without him) is predicated on the big, explosive play. It’s why you always hear James Franklin talk about number of explosive plays (20 yards+) in his pressers. It’s also why we threw a 40 yard bomb once every set of downs yesterday. Journey Brown is the fastest of the four and probably gives you the best chance for an explosive play. Noah Cain is viewed more as a 3 yards and cloud of dust guy.

You can agree or disagree with the philosophy, but I think that explains a lot.
Your right. The offense is designed to take what it is given. If the defense is going to play a lot of man coverage and cheat the safeties up, then the PSU offense is going to look for the deep pass to take advantage of the one on one coverage on the outside without safety help. Problem is that Clifford was not hitting these passes on Saturday. Hit a few deep passes and that would force the Defense to back off the LOS.

OTOH, that still does not explain some of the head scratching play calls that were run. Is that Rahne or is that Clifford not reading the defense properly? Maybe it is both. Regardless, it is safe to say that scoring 17 points most weeks gets you a big fat L at the end of the game.
 
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Ford and Brown played well in the 4th quarter. Nobody knows what Cain would have done after his series. Ford also made some nice catches in the 4th. Really don't know what the big deal is. The running backs were productive.
 
It's pretty sad that we all now apologize and/or put disclaimers about not being football coaches prior to every opinion we write about football on a football message board. I've followed multiple teams in multiple sports for many years and well... ..only here. So thanks AWS and others for leading us to this moronic point. :rolleyes:

Rahne sucked again, just as many of us opined last week. This is an issue. He's in charge of the offense. It's not clicking. The talent is there. Make it work or JF will fire your ass.
 
1st of all very nice thread. Majority of posts are well thought out and football-intelligent.

My thoughts:
1. From a brief sample of the BW Game and the Idaho game, I said after week #1 that I thought Slade was our 4th-best RB but he was starting. That is not necessarily a knock on Slade, but more a compliment to the others. I feel at this stage our RB rotation should be JB #1 and getting a good 40-50% of the snaps, Cain #2 and getting 30-40% of the snaps, and Ford #3 getting the remainder of the snaps. I do not believe you can successfully use 4 RBs, so I'd go with those 3 and if Slade does not like it and wants to go into the transfer portal, then so be it. This is big boy D1 football and you play to win, not to be fair. In a 4-horse race you have to have a #1, and #2, a #3 and unfortunately a #4.

2. I believe Rahne needs to be squarely on the hot seat. There are just too many dynamic offenses in college football with young and dynamic coaches for us to be floundering around .... with this much talent. You look at our Offensive "skill position" players and it's nothing but big time 4/5* recruits, with tons of speed. Yet we can not get these guys off the line of scrimmage, we can not get them in open space, and we can not exploit their game breaking speed. Watch some of these dynamic offenses and they are getting their play-makers in space. We can not figure this out ?????

3. The hot seat needs to extend over to Limegrover. Here we go again... the annual broken record .... "struggling Offensive Line". I was very patient with the OL rebuild. Just in 2014 we were playing with 2 converted DTs (Gaia & Dowry) because we did not have the bodies on the OL. That was 2014. It's now 2019. We've recruited OL well the last 4-5 years and our OL cupboard is stocked with 4* recruits. I'll pose a challenge question...... name me 1 OL in the last 4 years (I believe this is Limegrover's 4th year) that Limegrover has developed and who has shown marked improvement under Limegrover's coaching. Guys like Bates, Gonzalez, Fries, McGovern came in as highly touted prospects and they stagnated under Limegrover. None of them "improved". And now I see the same stagnation with Menet. he was a 5* guy and should have the physical ability to be mentioned as an All-B1G Center, yet he is stagnating now and can not even block a DT lined up right on his nose.

4. Do we allow our practice squad to stunt in practice??? I am being dead serious. It's been 4 years now and we still can not pick up the simplest most basic high school level stunt by a DL. If you want pressure on the PSU QB, all you need to do is run a simple stunt of looping your DE and DT and I'll guarantee that at least one of them will run un-touched into our QB while our OL either block no one or they block the same guy. I am not talking sophisticated stunts, I am talking about basic "stunt 101" stuff. Yet game after game, year after year ... our OL are dazed and confused by these things. And do they know that they actually can touch a LB who is coming on a delayed blitz?? ......... Again, I am not being sarcastic, I am being 100% serious when I ask "Do we allow our practice squad to stunt and blitz during practices because our OL seem like they never see these things.

> Bottom line is that this Offensive Staff needs to be put on notice. I'll give Parker a little benefit of doubt because he is new and he is trying to erase the damages done by Corley. But even he needs to be under close watch. Things like simply getting off the line of scrimmage or creating separation are drastically lacking from our receivers. I get building confidence back can be tricky because it's "mental". But getting off the line of scrimmage or creating separation are 100% physical things and we struggle with those now.
 
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If you've watched the first 3 games and are convinced that Cain is the obvious #1 back on this team, you've watched different games than I have. Brown and Ford have looked just as good, or better.

I agree. Going back to pre-season, I said that 4 RBs is too many. Most I ever saw a team juggle was 3 and that was UGA a couple seasons ago when they had 2 upper-classmen in Nick Chubb and Sony Michel and then true FR Swift. UGA could make 3 work because Chubb and Michel were upper-classmen and Swift was a FR, so he was not going to make waves about snaps over 2 proven upper-classmen. But that was still only 3 and not 4. My prediction was that the staff would use the first few games to let things play out, let "cream rise to top" and settle on a 2 RB rotation for the majority of snaps moving into B1G play. After 3 games, I believe JB is our most complete back in terms of running with speed and a home-run threat, running with some power between the tackles, catching the ball out of backfield and pass pro. After JB, I'd say that Cain has been a bit more impressive than either Ford or Slade. Ford had the long run vs. Idaho, but to be honest that was Idaho and the hole was so big half the student section could have scored on that run. I think the combo of JB and Cain for the majority of snaps would be a good "speed & power" combo.
 
Is Brown hurt ?
Somebody said something about a knee.
Once we hit the BT schedule, there will be enough reps to go around for all four backs with guys getting dinged.
 
Who has the best yards per carry if you remove any runs over 20 yards. That would be my back for 1st and 2nd down. Then I would mix in the speedy home run hitters on 3rd down. All 4 backs can catch the ball so you’re not limited on 1st and 2nd downs to just running the ball. You can also do the 2 back formation.
 
Is Brown hurt ?
Somebody said something about a knee.
Once we hit the BT schedule, there will be enough reps to go around for all four backs with guys getting dinged.

Why? I am not saying any of these guys are Saquan, but did we need 4 Backs in B1G play when we had Saquan because he was dinged up? Even in years we had Saquan and Sanders, we barely used Sanders even though he was a 5* prospect. Wiscy uses a primary RB for 90% of their snaps and their #1 RB is constantly in Heisman talks. Most SEC & B1G teams have a primary back with a 2nd stringer coming in for relief duty. Why would we need 4 once conference play begins.

This is big boy D1 football. This is not 7 year old girls soccer for the rec league where everybody gets the same number of minutes regardless of score.
 
Why? I am not saying any of these guys are Saquan, but did we need 4 Backs in B1G play when we had Saquan because he was dinged up? Even in years we had Saquan and Sanders, we barely used Sanders even though he was a 5* prospect. Wiscy uses a primary RB for 90% of their snaps and their #1 RB is constantly in Heisman talks. Most SEC & B1G teams have a primary back with a 2nd stringer coming in for relief duty. Why would we need 4 once conference play begins.

This is big boy D1 football. This is not 7 year old girls soccer for the rec league where everybody gets the same number of minutes regardless of score.
We don’t have Saquon now.
The NY football Giants do.
There will never be another Saquon.
 
The same Noah Cain who ran a 4.4 40 in HS (likely faster now)... and was offered by everybody not named alabama? The #6 RB in the nation as a senior. That guy isn't a homerun hitter... and why do we care if he can move the chains with him lugging the rock?

Something isn't adding up... I'm thinking portal fears.... specifically Ford.

Cain is not a 4.4 guy.

https://247sports.com/Player/Noah-Cain-86618/high-school-188283/

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We don’t have Saquon now.
The NY football Giants do.
There will never be another Saquon.

I also said ALL other teams, and said all teams in B1G & SEC... My point about Saquan was not to compare these 4 to Saquan. Of coarse none of them are Saquan. We all understand saquan was a generational talent. But he's a human being and took a physical beating. Even when we had another stud like sanders to take some burden off Saquan, we still used him on about 90% of the snaps in 2017. Look around big time college football, look around conferences like the SEC and the B1G and no other program IS or HAS used 4 RBs throughout their league play. You stated that it would be good to use the 4 once conference play started...... I simply pointed out that no one else feels this way.
 
you aren't going to hang onto four starting quality RBs in this day and age- get used to it.

find your best two and keep them happy
 
Ford and Brown played well in the 4th quarter. Nobody knows what Cain would have done after his series. Ford also made some nice catches in the 4th. Really don't know what the big deal is. The running backs were productive.
H
There is stark difference in how the offense performed in the second half.
That drive went 88 yards in 13 plays and used almost 5 minutes of game time.
PSU’s next series went 5 plays 21 yards, then the next one 5 plays 20 yards, and their last series 5 plays 25 yards.
They had more yards in that one series than the other three series afterwards combined. And If we we look first series of the half they went 5 plays and 14 yards.
So in the second half the there were four non Cain series that had a total of 80 yards of offense and one Cain series that had a total of 88.
If PSU had repeated that Cain series after Pitt went 3 and out, I think it would have broken Pitt’s spirit and PSU wins by 20+.
My problem is they finally found something that worked and instead of sticking with it, at least for another series, they completely switched things up.
It was like they put a completely different offense on the field.
Yea it was interesting to see to see the two back sets but results are results.
The point of the game isn’t to show off all your toys and offensive packages.
Sometimes the best adjustment is not making an adjustment.
 
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