I agree it is an issue because of NY and postseason but the Kang deal wasn't the same at all. The runner was on the ground, he was reaching for the bag and it happened on first base side of the bag.
SIAP...So what do you think about this whole Chase Utley kerfuffle?
- Thread starter Peetz Pool Boy
- Start date
So, essentially the pro-Utley crowd's argument basically boils down to who cares that it wasn't a slide, that Utley cared less about getting to the base, that his intent was to take out a player at any cost and his reckless act broke someone's leg and sidelined him indefinitely --that's the way it's been done and don't be a pussy. Do I have that correct?
Utley, Carlos Gomez, who injured Jordy Mercer and Chris Coughlan, who leg-whipped and badly injured Jung Ho Kang should all receive lengthy suspensions with loss of pay. They were plays where even if there was no intent to injure, there had to be awareness of that strong possibility. The players' union in baseball would be on the wrong side of this and protect the players causing the injuries, rather than trying to prevent future ones.
Whoever thinks that wasn't dirty is nuts. The rule should be slide before the base, at the base, and stay low..... no more or you are out of here. Baseball is a sport where you shouldn't be getting a leg broken.
I understand your logic completely. In keeping with that philosophy, I suggest that if Matt Harvey puts a fastball on Utley or another Dodger's head and causes brain damage - that would be just part of the game because that is what Clemens, Drysdale, Marichal would have done!!!! So I am for brain damage and making baseball a truly violent game. Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, you have that correct! And, Utley has done this before with Tejada. I guess that a fastball to the brain would be appropriate - the hell with if it brain damages the player or even kills him. That is the tradition and that is "hard-nosed" baseball - nothing else. I wonder how the writer would feel if that was his son playing second?
Can you imagine if that was Jeter who broke his leg? Utley would be on his way to the guillotine this morning.
It's a terrible play, and everyone defending it provides no further support than, "that's how it's been done in the past, don't be a pussy!!!" I'm sorry, but I require a little more logic than that. If we applied that logic to all areas of life, there'd be a lot of slaveowners on the board right now. Just a terrible rationale to defend anything.
It's a stupid play that has nothing to do with the game of baseball. Jose Altuve almost got taken out for the postseason in the wild card game on another terrible slide. Kang is done til next May because of this. Now the Mets lose a starter. And for what? What does it add to the game? How is the game better when we're injuring important players in playoff races for no reason? But hey, don't be a pussy.
It's a stupid play that has nothing to do with the game of baseball. Jose Altuve almost got taken out for the postseason in the wild card game on another terrible slide. Kang is done til next May because of this. Now the Mets lose a starter. And for what? What does it add to the game? How is the game better when we're injuring important players in playoff races for no reason? But hey, don't be a pussy.
Having seen the replay a number of times, it was not a "baseball" play ... Utley went out of his way to break up the double play by colliding with the shortstop. Is Chase Utley a dirty player - I think not. Anybody who earns their living playing a game knows that it could happen to me ... there is not an intent to injure, just an intent to get a run to count.
The line to be drawn is the "slide" that was not an action to get to the base safely needs to be dealt with by the umpire(s). If the shortstop is not injured by the contact, is there a beef with the action of the baserunner? I feel that there should be a consequence to "not sliding into the base".
The line to be drawn is the "slide" that was not an action to get to the base safely needs to be dealt with by the umpire(s). If the shortstop is not injured by the contact, is there a beef with the action of the baserunner? I feel that there should be a consequence to "not sliding into the base".
Funny thing is, the umpire standing right there looking at the play, called Utley safe. He could have called Utley out for interference with the infielder, an automatic double play, but chose not to do so.
That play happens more than is realized. Most of the time nobody gets injured. Two things happened here that caused the stir. One, it happened in a playoff game. Two, a New York player was injured.
If baseball wants to make a rule change to protect middle infielders, fine with me, but I have a real problem with former Met and Yankee Joe Torre making a retroactive decision for punishment, when the guy standing ten feet away called it a good play.
The umpire called him out and the review was were he was ruled safe first off. The part that pisses me off is the neighborhood play on a double play isn't reviewable. They shouldn't have reviewed the play. They said the feed being off is the reason the double play situation was off the table and they reviewed it as a force play when Tejada was obviously spinning to complete the throw to first base. Worst case senerio should have been runner on first, 2 outs and and a tie game 2-2. Instead you have first and second and 1 out.
Agree - there is not one post-game explanation of him being safe at second that makes sense. And, honestly, I don't think Tejada makes the play at first even without Utley going all MMA on him, so I think that would've been the right result..
I'm not against take out slides but this was a dirty play. First of all Utley was pretty much at the bag before he even went down. That shows you that his intent was to roll Tejada, not get to the base. Second, Utley looked like a right guard making a rolling block to take out a linebacker, except if it were football, Utley would've been flagged for a clip or block in the back. Third he never tried to touch the base. This was dangerous and against the rules as Torre has pointed out. The suspension is warranted and the umps blew it by not calling interference on Utley when the play happened. Cheap shot and may have turned the game to the Dodgers.
And if the queen had balls, she'd be the king. The broken leg illustrates just how dangerous what Utley did is.
Utley is as old school as they come and he will fully be expecting to get plunked and will have ZERO issues with it. He will simply just take first base. His job in that situation was to break up the double play and he did. Its happened to him NUMEROUS times and it is what it is. Why he got suspended I cant even fathom. Nothing was illegal or dirty in what he did.
It strikes me that if you are not going to allow middle infielders to dust the bag on a double play then you can't allow base runners to slide outside the base to try and break up a double play. One is tied to the other.
In reality the rule should be enforced as written. Lee way was given in the past, because the rule required the ump to assess intent based on a live situation that takes place in a matter of a second or two. Because lee way was given to base runners fielders were then given the judgment that they could dust the bag in order to protect themselves.
With replay -- the umps can determine if the fielder had the ball and foot on the bag at the same time, and whether the runner went out of the base line in order to contact the fielder. I think once they went to replay the proper call had to be "interference" on the runner. Out at second and out at first (if less than 2 out at the time). The league can then review the play to determine if further penalties are appropriate. By assessing a 2 game suspension the league has now concluded that the appropriate call should have been interference.
In reality the rule should be enforced as written. Lee way was given in the past, because the rule required the ump to assess intent based on a live situation that takes place in a matter of a second or two. Because lee way was given to base runners fielders were then given the judgment that they could dust the bag in order to protect themselves.
With replay -- the umps can determine if the fielder had the ball and foot on the bag at the same time, and whether the runner went out of the base line in order to contact the fielder. I think once they went to replay the proper call had to be "interference" on the runner. Out at second and out at first (if less than 2 out at the time). The league can then review the play to determine if further penalties are appropriate. By assessing a 2 game suspension the league has now concluded that the appropriate call should have been interference.
I was under the impression that runners were not allowed to go flying past second in an attempt to break up a double play. In most of the above pictures, it's pretty obvious they went several feet beyond the base, just like Utley and Coughlan did recently. Is that not part of the current rule?
I didn't see the game but watched the video this morning. A suspension is ridiculous.
Crybaby New Yorkers whining. They need to settle it in the box on the first at bat in the next game. Get it done if they have the stones to stand up for their team mate.
Did the player that broke Kang's leg get suspended?
Crybaby New Yorkers whining. They need to settle it in the box on the first at bat in the next game. Get it done if they have the stones to stand up for their team mate.
Did the player that broke Kang's leg get suspended?
has anyone brought up Tejada's "spin" move? I think Utley's slide was high, maybe a little dirty, but "legal" under the current MLB rules. but I don't think he was trying to hurt Tejada. Tejada seems like he was spinning (maybe to avoid the effect of the slide?) that exposed him to being injured.
btw, greatest dirty double play break up slide in MLB history:
btw, greatest dirty double play break up slide in MLB history:
Take a look at this one, Howie. Billy Martin came out to argue, but he didn't go berserk. Know why? He would have done the same thing.
I'd have thrown him out of the game. The play was BEHIND the bag and no where near it. And, it was overly physical. He wasn't sliding, he was making a body blow. He made no attempt to get to the bag...none. I am glad they suspended him. I love hustle and physical baseball but its another thing to actually try to hurt somebody.
"Try" to hurt Tejada? No way. He was trying to break up a doubleplay in a playoff game. He's played second base for a long time. You don't think he's gotten drilled around the bag? Of course, he's not a whiner. He takes it as part of the game. I also like the New York assholes who want him beaned. Hell, he's been hit 179 times in 13 seasons. He gets plunked and goes to first base, never the mound.
This is being driven by New York media, along with it's sycophants in Bristol. I heard Mets fan Linda Cohn whining and crying about it yesterday.
see my comment on Tejada's spin. I don't think Utley saw that coming as he slid into the bag. it definitely exacerbated any injury to Tejada.
honestly, I am kind of baffled by what Tejada was thinking
This is not rocket science. There should be two requirements when sliding into a base and they are both self evident from the sentence itself. 1. You need to slide. 2. Into a base. Neither of those were present. I think Cuddyer put it best when he simply said "that's not a slide, it's a tackle. It's for you to decide if tackling is legal in baseball."
So they're going to change the rule now because of it which means it wasn't against the rules now, but he gets suspended? Hmm. Also, how is a pitcher throwing at someone not dangerous and dirty play? But at worse a pitcher gets thrown out of a game. I would rather have someone slide at me to break up a double play (I played second and short so I know what that's like) than have a 95 mph fastball thrown at my head. Let's be consistent in our "dirty play" outrage. If you're going to suspend one person for one type of dirty play you better suspend everyone or every type of dirty play.
Legal? Yes, currently, as the rules are enforced. (I think we'll see a change over the winter after this play and the Kang injury.)
Dirty? Absolutely !!!
Utley started his "slide" way late. Even after contact, he ended up well beyond the base.
He never made the slightest effort to touch the bag, so his intent was never to reach second base safely.
But, most important in my mind, he is a veteran player and a SECOND BASEMAN.
He knew exactly what he was doing.
While likely not thinking of it at that instant, he was well aware of the possible consequences to the Mets' player. Which means he crossed the line between playing aggressive and playing dirty. He should -- and does -- know better. He should be -- and has been -- punished.
I see a number of posters have mentioned the hard-throwing Mets starting pitchers. I'm sure Mr. Utley will acquire a few bruises from fastballs "just a bit inside" in this series or next year. He will be ready for those. But will he be ready when some player "Utley slide" into his legs as he tries to turn a double play in the future. At his age, the injury he caused could very well be a career-ender if he's on the receiving end.
Long time Phillies fan and I'm biased when it comes to Utley and he's not a dirty player. It was a baseball play that happens all the time to break up a double play. David Murphy has executed this same exact play during his career (ironically against Utley and the Phillies this year) and is a hypocrite with his stance on this. If Tejada doesn't break his leg, the play would have been discussed during the broadcast but for the most part, would be an afterthought. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
I'm biased since I'm a Mets fan but I thought it was clearly dirty. Utley's "slide" began practically even with the bag. He wasn't sliding into second, he was intentionally targeting Tejada. To even call it a slide is ridiculous, he barely got down to his knees and just came flying at Tejada's legs. I don't believe he did so with intent to injure although some have even accused him of that, but rather I believe his intent was to break up the double play at any costs. Well, he did so but in a way that is illegal per the rules, but rarely (never?) called. The fact that Tejada was injured and Utley seemed incredibly unapologetic in his post-game interview is only adding to the issue. This now cost Tejada his entire post season.
But the refs got this all wrong IMO, and it pisses me off because the Mets either have a 2-2 game with 2 outs and a runner on first (if they call Utley out), or a 2-1 game going into the 8th inning (if they also call the hitter out per the DP interference rules). Instead, thanks to this debacle it changed the outcome of the game. If the Mets are up 2 games to 0 heading to NYC with Harvey and Matz pitching, this series is essentially over. Now the Dodgers still have life, however I think they woke up the entire city of NY with this mess. It's going to a raucous environment at Citi Field for the next 2 games. I just hope the Mets can get past the distraction and channel their new energy into roughing these guys up on the field.
BTW, one of the better articles I've read really breaks down the rules issue pretty well:
http://thereadzone.com/2015/10/11/mlb-blew-the-utley-tejada-interference-call-and-cost-the-mets-the-game/
But the refs got this all wrong IMO, and it pisses me off because the Mets either have a 2-2 game with 2 outs and a runner on first (if they call Utley out), or a 2-1 game going into the 8th inning (if they also call the hitter out per the DP interference rules). Instead, thanks to this debacle it changed the outcome of the game. If the Mets are up 2 games to 0 heading to NYC with Harvey and Matz pitching, this series is essentially over. Now the Dodgers still have life, however I think they woke up the entire city of NY with this mess. It's going to a raucous environment at Citi Field for the next 2 games. I just hope the Mets can get past the distraction and channel their new energy into roughing these guys up on the field.
BTW, one of the better articles I've read really breaks down the rules issue pretty well:
http://thereadzone.com/2015/10/11/mlb-blew-the-utley-tejada-interference-call-and-cost-the-mets-the-game/
