A couple weeks ago I was filling my truck with 87. I believe it was the first morning that it had gone to $2.95. I notice this particular pump had an 88 octane option and, it was only $2.90. So, do they increase each octane separately and that one just slipped thru the cracks? If that is the case I can see that is what happened as, this particular pump had numerous options. I haven't been back to check!
Sheetz gas question!
- Thread starter emrtmakesshiteup
- Start date
I noticed that at the Sheetz in Duncannon last week on my way to SC. I didn’t look that closely, but thought those extra pump handles were for diesel and flex fuels.
I think it’s an E15 or higher blend as ethanol has a higher octane rating but lower overall energy content.
I have a flex fuel vehicle but never use E85 because the cost difference is less than the energy content difference - 20% or so - and it doesn’t make economic sense. (Leaving aside the wisdom of corn based ethanol anyway)
I have a flex fuel vehicle but never use E85 because the cost difference is less than the energy content difference - 20% or so - and it doesn’t make economic sense. (Leaving aside the wisdom of corn based ethanol anyway)
You were probably looking at the E-85 nozzle. E-85 is approx. 85% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) by volume blended with 15% regular unleaded. (You need some gasoline in there because ethanol doesn't like to vaporize in cold weather and it would be difficult to start your engine without it. In the wintertime, you have more gas and less ETOH in the blend).
People get confused about octane. Octane is a rating of how SLOWLY your fuel burns in the cylinder. Slower is better. You get a nice even flame front as the piston travels downward in the cylinder - you get power developed the whole way. Low octane fuel burns fast - it all ignites at the top of the cylinder and in extreme cases you get 'knock' and hesitation. Ethanol is a high octane component.
Gasoline at your corner Sheetz or Exxon or No-Name all comes by truck from a wholesale terminal. The Terminal gets the supply by pipeline or by tanker/barge. Product is stored in tanks and loaded onto the truck for retail delivery. It is the same base product. The Terminal blends in each company's additive and in Pennsylvania also blends in 10% ethanol by volume. The ethanol is stored separately and comes in by truck or by railroad tank car.
The base gasoline coming in is not ready for retail sale/use. Because of the high-octane ethanol blend, the base gasoline is made at the refinery and shipped to the Terminal as 83.5 sub-regular or 91 premium. When you add the ethanol, the finished product is now 87 regular or 93 Premium.
The problem with ethanol is - it is good for octane, but it has less energy (BTU) per pound. BTU is what makes your car go down the road or pulls your boat over Sideling Hill. Your fuel economy suffers with less energy in each gallon - you have to burn more gallons to release the same BTU. If you have a flex-fuel vehicle you're welcome to try a tankful of E-85 - keep an eye on your economy and you will note a dramatic decrease in MPG. Your engine will run just fine, the computer will adjust seamlessly going back and forth from gasoline to ethanol. Up to you to decide if the price delta (ethanol is usually cheaper than gasoline) makes it a good decision. Mile for mile you will burn noticeably more gallons of ethanol than gallons of gasoline.
Final thing - there are only TWO gasoline grades in the underground tanks at a gas station - 87 Regular and 93 (some places have 92) Premium. When you mash the button for 89 or 91 or whatever they have in the middle, the dispenser pulls some from each tank to create your blend.
There you have it - Gas Station 101.
People get confused about octane. Octane is a rating of how SLOWLY your fuel burns in the cylinder. Slower is better. You get a nice even flame front as the piston travels downward in the cylinder - you get power developed the whole way. Low octane fuel burns fast - it all ignites at the top of the cylinder and in extreme cases you get 'knock' and hesitation. Ethanol is a high octane component.
Gasoline at your corner Sheetz or Exxon or No-Name all comes by truck from a wholesale terminal. The Terminal gets the supply by pipeline or by tanker/barge. Product is stored in tanks and loaded onto the truck for retail delivery. It is the same base product. The Terminal blends in each company's additive and in Pennsylvania also blends in 10% ethanol by volume. The ethanol is stored separately and comes in by truck or by railroad tank car.
The base gasoline coming in is not ready for retail sale/use. Because of the high-octane ethanol blend, the base gasoline is made at the refinery and shipped to the Terminal as 83.5 sub-regular or 91 premium. When you add the ethanol, the finished product is now 87 regular or 93 Premium.
The problem with ethanol is - it is good for octane, but it has less energy (BTU) per pound. BTU is what makes your car go down the road or pulls your boat over Sideling Hill. Your fuel economy suffers with less energy in each gallon - you have to burn more gallons to release the same BTU. If you have a flex-fuel vehicle you're welcome to try a tankful of E-85 - keep an eye on your economy and you will note a dramatic decrease in MPG. Your engine will run just fine, the computer will adjust seamlessly going back and forth from gasoline to ethanol. Up to you to decide if the price delta (ethanol is usually cheaper than gasoline) makes it a good decision. Mile for mile you will burn noticeably more gallons of ethanol than gallons of gasoline.
Final thing - there are only TWO gasoline grades in the underground tanks at a gas station - 87 Regular and 93 (some places have 92) Premium. When you mash the button for 89 or 91 or whatever they have in the middle, the dispenser pulls some from each tank to create your blend.
There you have it - Gas Station 101.
Most new cars these days can handle a little ethanol by design. It can actually increase the horsepower on turbocharged cars depending on how the car is tuned. My car isn't flex fuel but I put a little over 3 gallons of e85 into a full tank before track days to end up with ~e30. Good for about 20 extra ponies at the wheels on my car because it lets the engine run cooler. Also helps reduce carbon buildup.
I have a gas question too. It is a little old but I will ask anyway.
A few years ago when gas hit $4.00 I filled up a company vehicle. I had a company credit card so it was not my money. It was self serve and I got 20 gallons. The total was $80. As I am topping off the manager runs out and tells he is charging me the right price. I am like HUH? I had not even noticed but the display sign price listed $4 but the tank sign has changed to about $3.90. I get the automated receipt it says 20 gallons at $4 for a total of $80. I go inside and question the manager/owner and he prints me a new receipt for 20.5 gallons at $3.90. I am thinking WTF? I did not pump an additional half gallon.
Did I get ripped off?
A few years ago when gas hit $4.00 I filled up a company vehicle. I had a company credit card so it was not my money. It was self serve and I got 20 gallons. The total was $80. As I am topping off the manager runs out and tells he is charging me the right price. I am like HUH? I had not even noticed but the display sign price listed $4 but the tank sign has changed to about $3.90. I get the automated receipt it says 20 gallons at $4 for a total of $80. I go inside and question the manager/owner and he prints me a new receipt for 20.5 gallons at $3.90. I am thinking WTF? I did not pump an additional half gallon.
Did I get ripped off?
He gave you 80 dollars worth.
At 4.00 it was 20 gal
At 3.90 it’s 20.5 Gal
You already pumped it. Not like you can take the gas out and put it back into the pumps. He should have just given you the money back on the card tho.
I keep thinking Rodney Dangerfield in back to school lecturing the professor. I was waiting for you to say, want to pour concrete? But you did not leave much out!
Thanks. I'm amazed at the positive response to my post. I've been in this business my entire career.
Your post is the reason most here read this board. Little tidbits of information which come out from all the experts.
LdN
Yea I first noticed this at the Sheetz next to Chen's after one of the games last season.
Almost put the wrong gas in. I figure the nozzle would be a different size but fortunately didn't get that far.
I prefer to have the pumps separate.
What is was was e15 has. It has high ethanol content. Has may have up to 10% ethanol. E15 has up to 15%. The epa say it safe for cars made after 2001. Other dispute this and worry about corrosion it could cause. For me right now it not worth the few cents savings.
The only time I would use flex fuel in a vehicle is when returning a rental car with a full tank of gas.
While we're, sort of, on the subject - another Q for you, Fox Chapel Lion...
Am I correct in my understanding that the whole ethanol thing is nothing more than a DC boondoggle and welfare for the Midwest farm lobby? I've heard that it takes almost as much energy to produce a given quantity of ethanol as is derived from burning it...and the idea of turning food into fuel (on a planet with starving people) just seems wrong.
Yours is an opinion shared with many people, EB.
To the best of my ability I'll try to stick to the facts as I understand them and anybody reading can draw their own conclusions.
In order to make ethanol you need feedstock with a lot of sugar. Corn has lots of sugar. It's easy to grow and you have an abundant supply that is cheap. That is why it's used. It would be awesome to be able to ferment corn stalks, weeds, switchgrass and all that trash - problem is nobody has worked out the chemistry yet to make it work on a commercial scale that is cost-competitive vs grain.
As for energy balance, studies have tried to add it all up - how many BTU to plant it, fertilize it, cultivate it, harvest it. That takes a lot of diesel and a lot of agrichemicals (which also need manufactured and moved around). Then you load it onto a train and haul it to the ethanol distillery. Now clean it, crush it, mash it, distill it, yadda yadda yadda. Load it onto a rail car or a truck and haul it off somewhere - maybe hundreds of miles. Ethanol absorbs water by the way so you cannot put it into the pipeline system.
Now, you have it at the Terminal, you have to tank it, take care of it, and then add it to base gasoline, LOWERING the BTU content of each blended gallon.
So is it a net energy loser? You tell me. Some say it is energy-positive, others say the more you make, the further you go in the hole energy-wise.
Now all that said, ETOH certainly has some good properties, make no mistake. Yes it is 100% renewable - you can always grow more corn. It is extremely clean burning - it's good for pollution and good to clean out the innards of your fuel system and engine. It has outstanding octane properties. It's cheaper than gasoline (usually). The corn residue is processed into a product called DDG - Dried Distiller's Grains - and sold as cattle feed. It's actually pretty good stuff - the protein is concentrated and all the sugar is taken out. Byproduct sales lower your total costs and increase your margin.
Of course the entire enterprise is heavily politicized and lobbied to a fare-thee-well. There is a hell of a lot of people and a lot of livelihoods involved with it. You got farm subsidies, fuel taxes, EPA pollution regs, RIND Blending Credits, agribusiness, railroads, barge companies, trucking companies, chemical companies, refiners, fuel marketers, automakers, agricultural finance, insurance - everybody has their own interests to protect. And all their interests conflict.
Yea, that was good reading Fox. I tried to explain this to the wife, but she didn’t want hear it (as she hands me her car keys and says, “now go fill er up”. She won’t touch a gas pump)
Let's all get FCL going on why gas is 20 cents a gallon higher in Centre Co. than Harrisburg!
We market branded 91 ethanol-free gasoline in Tonawanda, Rochester, and Syracuse NY as Recreational Fuel. We're going after the snowmobile/chain saw/lawn mower/motorcycle market - any engine that you don't want to have ethanol. Completely LEGAL for highway use - all gas taxes are paid.
It's a niche market, but a nice one.
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Good discussion on a controversial subject. Couple more issues in the mix; Ethanol production has encouraged farmers to plow up more land including a lot that was set aside as marginal and in areas easily eroded. Now they plant hose areas and a lot of soil is washed into the rivers. They are also use additional fertilizer in those marginal areas and a lot of fertilizer ends up in the rivers also. Some say that the Mississippi is much more polluted because of ethanol. There is also a large plume of polluted water at he mouth of the Mississippi in the Gulf.
Ethanol and fructose are both bad but the ag lobby arm is too huge to stop. Also, since Iowa is the first stop on the Presidential campaign trail, no one of either party will go to Iowa and speak against either.
OP's asking about Sheetz's gas not yours.
Nice. It took me ten seconds to figure WTF you were babbling about. Who knew this would turn out to be such a great thread?
It's the McAndrew board, where every thread has a chance to be special!
Great posts, FCL.. I worked for Mobil Oil Co. for a few years before going back to law school, and people would occasionally ask me if the gasoline sold at Mobil gas stations was "better" than the gasoline sold by local independent (non-branded) gas stations. I told them it was essentially fungible, since it all came from the same refinery, and the only difference was that some branded dealers used a modest amount of additives. Many people are unaware that the sale of gasoline in the U.S. is heavily regulated, and that federal law (the Petroleum Marketing Practices Act, or "PMPA")) requires Mobil (now ExxonMobil) and other major refiners to sell and deliver gasoline to independent gas station operators. .
