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SCOTUS rules that states can tax Amazon

Obliviax

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Aug 21, 2001
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and any other online shopping. A big win for states and for big box brick & mortar businesses. (Once again, Obliviax has no opinion).


WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court says states can force online shoppers to pay sales tax.

The 5-4 ruling Thursday is a win for states, who said they were losing out on billions of dollars annually under two decades-old Supreme Court decisions that impacted online sales tax collection.

The high court ruled Thursday to overturn those decisions. They had resulted in some companies not collecting sales tax on every online purchase. The cases the court overturned said that if a business was shipping a product to a state where it didn’t have a physical presence such as a warehouse or office, the business didn’t have to collect the state’s sales tax. Customers were generally supposed to pay the tax to the state themselves if they don’t get charged it, but the vast majority didn’t.

Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that the previous decisions were flawed.

“Each year the physical presence rule becomes further removed from economic reality and results in significant revenue losses to the States. These critiques underscore that the physical presence rule, both as first formulated and as applied today, is an incorrect interpretation of the Commerce Clause,” he wrote.

In addition to being a win for states, the ruling is also a win for large retailers, who argued the physical presence rule was unfair. Retailers including Apple, Macy’s, Target and Walmart, which have brick-and-mortar stores nationwide, generally collect sales tax from their customers who buy online. That’s because they typically have a physical store in whatever state the purchase is being shipped to. Amazon.com, with its network of warehouses, also collects sales tax in every state that charges it, though third party sellers who use the site to sell goods don’t have to.

But sellers that only have a physical presence in a single state or a few states could avoid charging customers sales tax when they’re shipping to addresses outside those states. Online sellers that don’t charge sales tax on goods shipped to every state range from jewelry website Blue Nile to pet products site Chewy.com to clothing retailer L.L. Bean. Sellers who use eBay and Etsy, which provide platforms for smaller sellers, also aren’t required to collect sales tax nationwide.

The case the court ruled in has to do with a law passed by South Dakota in 2016. South Dakota’s governor has said his state loses out on an estimated $50 million a year in sales tax that doesn’t get collected by out-of-state sellers. Lawmakers in the state, which has no income tax, passed a law designed to directly challenge the Supreme Court’s 1992 decision. The law required out-of-state sellers who do more than $100,000 of business in the state or more than 200 transactions annually with state residents to collect sales tax and turn it over to the state.

South Dakota wanted out-of-state retailers to begin collecting the tax and sued several of them: Overstock.com, electronics retailer Newegg and home goods company Wayfair. The state conceded in court, however, that it could only win by persuading the Supreme Court to do away with its physical presence rule.

The Trump administration had urged the justices to side with South Dakota.

The case is South Dakota v. Wayfair, 17-494.​
 
Yeah, it's fair, in my opinion, but this is gonna really, really hurt the little online guys.

Obli, your subject line is misleading. There is no mention of Amazon in the body of your post. From CNN's summary: Amazon already pays these sales taxes. "Many of the largest online retailers, such as Amazon, already pay sales taxes because they have enough of a physical presence in most states through their network of warehouses and distribution facilities to qualify as taxable by states."

Unusual mixture of justices supporting this ruling: Kennedy, RBG, Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch.
 
and any other online shopping. A big win for states and for big box brick & mortar businesses. (Once again, Obliviax has no opinion).


WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court says states can force online shoppers to pay sales tax.

The 5-4 ruling Thursday is a win for states, who said they were losing out on billions of dollars annually under two decades-old Supreme Court decisions that impacted online sales tax collection.

The high court ruled Thursday to overturn those decisions. They had resulted in some companies not collecting sales tax on every online purchase. The cases the court overturned said that if a business was shipping a product to a state where it didn’t have a physical presence such as a warehouse or office, the business didn’t have to collect the state’s sales tax. Customers were generally supposed to pay the tax to the state themselves if they don’t get charged it, but the vast majority didn’t.

Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that the previous decisions were flawed.

“Each year the physical presence rule becomes further removed from economic reality and results in significant revenue losses to the States. These critiques underscore that the physical presence rule, both as first formulated and as applied today, is an incorrect interpretation of the Commerce Clause,” he wrote.

In addition to being a win for states, the ruling is also a win for large retailers, who argued the physical presence rule was unfair. Retailers including Apple, Macy’s, Target and Walmart, which have brick-and-mortar stores nationwide, generally collect sales tax from their customers who buy online. That’s because they typically have a physical store in whatever state the purchase is being shipped to. Amazon.com, with its network of warehouses, also collects sales tax in every state that charges it, though third party sellers who use the site to sell goods don’t have to.

But sellers that only have a physical presence in a single state or a few states could avoid charging customers sales tax when they’re shipping to addresses outside those states. Online sellers that don’t charge sales tax on goods shipped to every state range from jewelry website Blue Nile to pet products site Chewy.com to clothing retailer L.L. Bean. Sellers who use eBay and Etsy, which provide platforms for smaller sellers, also aren’t required to collect sales tax nationwide.

The case the court ruled in has to do with a law passed by South Dakota in 2016. South Dakota’s governor has said his state loses out on an estimated $50 million a year in sales tax that doesn’t get collected by out-of-state sellers. Lawmakers in the state, which has no income tax, passed a law designed to directly challenge the Supreme Court’s 1992 decision. The law required out-of-state sellers who do more than $100,000 of business in the state or more than 200 transactions annually with state residents to collect sales tax and turn it over to the state.

South Dakota wanted out-of-state retailers to begin collecting the tax and sued several of them: Overstock.com, electronics retailer Newegg and home goods company Wayfair. The state conceded in court, however, that it could only win by persuading the Supreme Court to do away with its physical presence rule.

The Trump administration had urged the justices to side with South Dakota.

The case is South Dakota v. Wayfair, 17-494.​

My intern is there this morning; hope he got to check this out. I'm actually in favor of this ruling - I love shopping online, but not collecting taxes is a big advantage for these companies and small businesses and states, like North Dakota, are left out.
 
sucks as a consumer but never understood how it was fair that on-line purchases many times didn't have to charge sales tax.
 
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Yeah, it's fair, in my opinion, but this is gonna really, really hurt the little online guys.

Obli, your subject line is misleading. There is no mention of Amazon in the body of your post. From CNN's summary: Amazon already pays these sales taxes. "Many of the largest online retailers, such as Amazon, already pay sales taxes because they have enough of a physical presence in most states through their network of warehouses and distribution facilities to qualify as taxable by states."

Unusual mixture of justices supporting this ruling: Kennedy, RBG, Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch.

Actually it will hurt Amazon. They sell/process a shitload of stuff for entities that you would classify as "little online guys" on whose behalf they will now impose and collect sales tax. Question is how does this effect sites like Ebay? If it doesn't then I think we'll see a considerable shift away from Amazon to places like Ebay.
 
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Actually it will hurt Amazon. They sell/process a shitload of stuff for entities that you would classify as "little online guys" on whose behalf they will now impose and collect sales tax. Question is how does this effect sites like Ebay? If it doesn't then I think we'll see a considerable shift away from Amazon to places like Ebay.

eBay stock is down on the news but would not sure if the buyer or the seller would take the hit. The only certainly is that eBay will charge the seller 12% of the tax paid by the buyer as a fee, since that’s what they do.
 
Actually it will hurt Amazon. They sell/process a shitload of stuff for entities that you would classify as "little online guys" on whose behalf they will now impose and collect sales tax. Question is how does this effect sites like Ebay? If it doesn't then I think we'll see a considerable shift away from Amazon to places like Ebay.

Actually... it likely will not hurt Amazon. They will collect and process the taxes for the smaller sellers, but charge a convenience fee to do that... so they will actually profit from this
 
Actually... it likely will not hurt Amazon. They will collect and process the taxes for the smaller sellers, but charge a convenience fee to do that... so they will actually profit from this

Assuming that they don't lose sellers and/or volume doesn't decline. I'm trying to remember the last time imposition of a tax was good for business.
 
My intern is there this morning; hope he got to check this out. I'm actually in favor of this ruling - I love shopping online, but not collecting taxes is a big advantage for these companies and small businesses and states, like North Dakota, are left out.

Actually I think Canada just figured this out for us.
Legalize weed, be able to buy it online, tax it and have it delivered by the US post office.
Win, Win, Win, Win. So much winning. LOL.;)
 
This is bad for small online sellers. Not only will the small guys have to shell out $$$$ to integrate tax collecting software, they will be subject to over 10,000 tax authorities and therefor 10,000 audits. (granted many states collect at the state level and then pass down to the municiple/city sales tax authority, but still this could be very bad for the SMB community. )
 
Actually it will hurt Amazon. They sell/process a shitload of stuff for entities that you would classify as "little online guys" on whose behalf they will now impose and collect sales tax. Question is how does this effect sites like Ebay? If it doesn't then I think we'll see a considerable shift away from Amazon to places like Ebay.
Disagree. It helps Amazon. They already have this figured out. Now that can offer to handle it for the “little guys” who sell through Amazon. For a fee, of course. Ka-Ching! Also, it could encourage small businesses to sell through Amazon rather than their own sites, or let Amazon handle the tax processing on their own sites via an API... for a fee. Ka-Ching!
 
and any other online shopping. A big win for states and for big box brick & mortar businesses. (Once again, Obliviax has no opinion).


WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court says states can force online shoppers to pay sales tax.

The 5-4 ruling Thursday is a win for states, who said they were losing out on billions of dollars annually under two decades-old Supreme Court decisions that impacted online sales tax collection.

The high court ruled Thursday to overturn those decisions. They had resulted in some companies not collecting sales tax on every online purchase. The cases the court overturned said that if a business was shipping a product to a state where it didn’t have a physical presence such as a warehouse or office, the business didn’t have to collect the state’s sales tax. Customers were generally supposed to pay the tax to the state themselves if they don’t get charged it, but the vast majority didn’t.

Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that the previous decisions were flawed.

“Each year the physical presence rule becomes further removed from economic reality and results in significant revenue losses to the States. These critiques underscore that the physical presence rule, both as first formulated and as applied today, is an incorrect interpretation of the Commerce Clause,” he wrote.

In addition to being a win for states, the ruling is also a win for large retailers, who argued the physical presence rule was unfair. Retailers including Apple, Macy’s, Target and Walmart, which have brick-and-mortar stores nationwide, generally collect sales tax from their customers who buy online. That’s because they typically have a physical store in whatever state the purchase is being shipped to. Amazon.com, with its network of warehouses, also collects sales tax in every state that charges it, though third party sellers who use the site to sell goods don’t have to.

But sellers that only have a physical presence in a single state or a few states could avoid charging customers sales tax when they’re shipping to addresses outside those states. Online sellers that don’t charge sales tax on goods shipped to every state range from jewelry website Blue Nile to pet products site Chewy.com to clothing retailer L.L. Bean. Sellers who use eBay and Etsy, which provide platforms for smaller sellers, also aren’t required to collect sales tax nationwide.

The case the court ruled in has to do with a law passed by South Dakota in 2016. South Dakota’s governor has said his state loses out on an estimated $50 million a year in sales tax that doesn’t get collected by out-of-state sellers. Lawmakers in the state, which has no income tax, passed a law designed to directly challenge the Supreme Court’s 1992 decision. The law required out-of-state sellers who do more than $100,000 of business in the state or more than 200 transactions annually with state residents to collect sales tax and turn it over to the state.

South Dakota wanted out-of-state retailers to begin collecting the tax and sued several of them: Overstock.com, electronics retailer Newegg and home goods company Wayfair. The state conceded in court, however, that it could only win by persuading the Supreme Court to do away with its physical presence rule.

The Trump administration had urged the justices to side with South Dakota.

The case is South Dakota v. Wayfair, 17-494.​
Actually, amazon will not likely be the entity subject to taxation in most of their transactions. It will be the online retailer using their platform. This is a gift to amazon as they’ll undoubtedly be able to charge fees to vendors for facilitating and remitting collections. As they do now in some states
 
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My intern is there this morning; hope he got to check this out. I'm actually in favor of this ruling - I love shopping online, but not collecting taxes is a big advantage for these companies and small businesses and states, like North Dakota, are left out.


well, if they have no presence in a State, they are not costing the State for infrastructure costs.
 
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Disagree. It helps Amazon. They already have this figured out. Now that can offer to handle it for the “little guys” who sell through Amazon. For a fee, of course. Ka-Ching! Also, it could encourage small businesses to sell through Amazon rather than their own sites, or let Amazon handle the tax processing on their own sites via an API... for a fee. Ka-Ching!

So you're level of consumption is unaffected by prices? More proof that Mencken was right.
 
This is bad for small online sellers. Not only will the small guys have to shell out $$$$ to integrate tax collecting software, they will be subject to over 10,000 tax authorities and therefor 10,000 audits. (granted many states collect at the state level and then pass down to the municiple/city sales tax authority, but still this could be very bad for the SMB community. )

The ones that will certainly feel the pinch are those that sell through mega-platforms like Amazon or Wal -Mart. Direct sellers are a mixed bag. Some are small enough that they'll fly under the radar. Others, not so much. But you are correct, this is really not good for business.
 
So you're level of consumption is unaffected by prices? More proof that Mencken was right.
Ummmm... I saId nothing about consumption levels. And Amazon is already collecting taxes on their merchandise, so products won’t get more expensive for the items they’re already selling.
 
well, if they have no presence in a State, they are not costing the State for infrastructure costs.

Well, goods still have to be delivered in those states.

Which is paid by the shipping costs. UPS, for example, has a presence in the State and pays assessed State/Local taxes that are then passed on to the consumer in that State through shipping costs.
 
Ummmm... I saId nothing about consumption levels. And Amazon is already collecting taxes on their merchandise, so products won’t get more expensive for the items they’re already selling.

Yeah, but half of it's business is processing transactions for third-party sellers. When those guys get pinched, Amazon will feel it.
 
Yeah, but half of it's business is processing transactions for third-party sellers. When those guys get pinched, Amazon will feel it.
Some. But buyers will just buy similar/same products from other sellers, or more likely, they will avail themselves to Anazon’s offer to handle the tax computation and payment for them, which will generate revenue. Plus Amazon can sell the same services via an API to people who choose not to sell on Amazon, but instead only on their own website. My guess is that revenue would more than offset any loss in sales that can’t be fulfilled by other sellers on their site. It’s a potentially large number for them.
 
Some. But buyers will just buy similar/same products from other sellers, or more likely, they will avail themselves to Anazon’s offer to handle the tax computation and payment for them, which will generate revenue. Plus Amazon can sell the same services via an API to people who choose not to sell on Amazon, but instead only on their own website. My guess is that revenue would more than offset any loss in sales that can’t be fulfilled by other sellers on their site. It’s a potentially large number for them.

You should call Amazon because they're not looking at it that way.
 
Yeah, but half of it's business is processing transactions for third-party sellers. When those guys get pinched, Amazon will feel it.

I think they are already collecting sales taxes on those transactions (I know for sure that they have on every one that I've purchased through Amazon, and I buy a ton of stuff through them).
 
I think they are already collecting sales taxes on those transactions (I know for sure that they have on every one that I've purchased through Amazon, and I buy a ton of stuff through them).

Just did a little more digging. PA is one of the states that already has legislated that Amazon collect those taxes, which is why I've been paying them. So far, the pundits are mixed on whether this is a plus or minus for Amazon.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/21/why-amazon-wins-with-supreme-court-sales-tax-ruling.html

https://www.recode.net/2018/6/21/17...ruling-amazon-internet-retailers-south-dakota
 
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I think they are already collecting sales taxes on those transactions (I know for sure that they have on every one that I've purchased through Amazon, and I buy a ton of stuff through them).

They are charging tax for all things sold from/shipped by Amazon.

They are not charging tax for items sold by a third party and fulfilled by Amazon. In other words, just because it says "Free Prime Shipping" doesn't mean Amazon is the "seller," it means Amazon is handling fulfillment. Those are the untaxed orders.
 
I don't think it hurts Amazon. They have so many distribution centers now anyway that most people are paying taxes
 
Actually I think Canada just figured this out for us.
Legalize weed, be able to buy it online, tax it and have it delivered by the US post office.
Win, Win, Win, Win. So much winning. LOL.;)
But will there be a tariff?
 
My how simple life would be w/ a fair tax. What a wonderful world it would be.

FairTax_Facts_492x277.png
 
My how simple life would be w/ a fair tax. What a wonderful world it would be.

FairTax_Facts_492x277.png
Something caught my eye on this chart.
I was dating a girl from El Paso and we went to the local Wal-Mart. Next to the Walmart was a a "tax" center. So I ask her what the hell it was. She told me that the people that come on day visas to work in the US take their receipts to the tax center to get the tax money back on whatever they bought . She's lived in El Paso her entire life so I had no reason to doubt her . Can anyone confirm this?
 
Assuming that they don't lose sellers and/or volume doesn't decline. I'm trying to remember the last time imposition of a tax was good for business.

I believe that Amazon has been in favor of imposing this tax for a while, and has lobbied for it
 
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Something caught my eye on this chart.
I was dating a girl from El Paso and we went to the local Wal-Mart. Next to the Walmart was a a "tax" center. So I ask her what the hell it was. She told me that the people that come on day visas to work in the US take their receipts to the tax center to get the tax money back on whatever they bought . She's lived in El Paso her entire life so I had no reason to doubt her . Can anyone confirm this?

Texas refunds sales tax to foreign visitors. Believe they need to provide evidence of taxes paid and date/means of departure (from the US). There are more details, but that's the gist of it.
 
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They are charging tax for all things sold from/shipped by Amazon.

They are not charging tax for items sold by a third party and fulfilled by Amazon. In other words, just because it says "Free Prime Shipping" doesn't mean Amazon is the "seller," it means Amazon is handling fulfillment. Those are the untaxed orders.

You appear to be partially correct. I went and checked my Amazon orders over the last 18 months (over 100 orders). About half of them were sold by third parties and fulfilled by Amazon - but I did pay tax on many of those 3rd party orders (about 50% of them) So, in my limited and totally unscientific survey, Amazon isn't paying taxes on roughly 25% of their orders (your results may differ).

Note: What is also interesting is that I've paid tax on every item but one that I ordered in 2018, so maybe something changed this year.
 
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This is bad for small online sellers. Not only will the small guys have to shell out $$$$ to integrate tax collecting software, they will be subject to over 10,000 tax authorities and therefor 10,000 audits. (granted many states collect at the state level and then pass down to the municiple/city sales tax authority, but still this could be very bad for the SMB community. )
I disagree. A lot of small online companies are being forced to remit to the various states now under complex and varying rules. Companies such as Amazon will have to step up and assist (although the capability is already there) or risk losing sellers. Now the online sellers will compete on a level playing field.
 
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