Rule Changes

Junglekitty

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Feb 15, 2018
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Well the season has concluded and obviously we couldn’t be happier with the team results. I would have loved to see Brady AA after coming back. I also would have obviously loved to see Drew and BB AA, but at the very least make it a little further. I am in no way knocking them. This tournament is a gauntlet. Off the top of my head, out of 3 former champs, 1 didn’t place, 1 finished 3rd after losing early, and 1 made the finals.

Have seen a ton of fans call for rule improvements. A few I agree with, a few can be chalked up to sour grapes. The rules in place are great when they work for you, and terrible when they work against you, such is life.

I will say that I personally would like to take some subjectivity out of the current rules. The out of bounds action/stalling calls are very inconsistent and need to be looked at. Not sure the freestyle step out and 1 point is the answer. I’m actually not sure what the answer is, which is why I’m not on the rules committee, but I think with the minds in college wrestling currently, it could be at least looked at and possibly adjusted.

A few rule changes I would be in favor of is either a 3 pt takedown, or when choosing to go neutral after a restart, the down wrestler does not get the escape point. I’m more in favor of the latter since that point should be “earned”.

I’m also in favor of changing the riding time point rule. No riding time point shall be awarded unless near fall points are earned. At the least, having your opponent in danger for swipes.

The OT rules could also use a look. To have a match end solely on riding time is not right IMO. The old saying to not leave it in the refs hands hold true, but these are world class athletes that are doing battle. Believe it or not, sometimes it is extremely difficult to simply score more points than your opponents. I’d be in favor of the current the 2 minutes sudden victory and 2 - 30 second ride outs. If the match is still tied, another 2 minutes on their feet, first points win. If further action is required, the wrestler who scored first gets choice and either has to escape or ride out to win. Not only will this increase action, but increase the level of excitement.

Our beloved sport is constantly under pressure to evolve. We almost lost it in the Olympics, and I’m not sure that threat is something that simply goes away. The more rule tweaks and excitement we can add, the more “casual” fans will want to tune in. The more viewers we can pull in, the more chance we have on getting more tv time. I am not in favor of turning our sport into the wwe or any other scripted drama. However, if there are things we can do to keep the integrity of the sport, as well as draw eyes, than those steps should be considered immensely.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The rules should be looked at and tweaked every year. Major changes should be made if necessary every other year, which I think is currently the case. Let’s continue to grow together as a sport. Jr high rules should transition into high school which should transition to college without major hiccups. The basics of wrestling does not change, so why should the rules.
 

PSUcup1

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Nov 6, 2012
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3 point reversal is a no brainer change that needs to be made.

I can go with requiring NF points to acquire the riding time point. Or maybe you only accrue RT after a takedown or
Reversal

Biggest issue getting refs to correctly and consistently call stalling
 
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dicemen99

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Folkstyle ISN'T free. Control is rewarded from top and neutral, not position. Escape or reversal from control is rewarded as well. People talk about boring top riding and want to put guys back up on their feet, smh. By far the position with the most time wasted with boring wrestling is in neutral.

It's hard to keep a guy from escaping. That's why a lot of guys aren't good at it. It's also hard to get out from a guy that's good on top.

We see first periods go by all the time with 3 minutes of no scoring. Most of them are extremely boring. Riding a guy for 2 minutes is seldom boring. Count me way out on any more rule changes that bring guys back to their feet without effort. We have already given guys the option to choose neutral in a period. That is enough.

We have rules against stalling on top. You keep running a guy off the mat, you're going to get dinged. AB got dinged - as he should have. Most of the bitchin' was because he got dinged one go too late. That's a ref problem in a specific bout - I've seen plenty of matches where he would have got dinged a go before.

I like folkstyle. Tons of exciting matches this weekend.

I'd agree that the OT rules in the tiebreak need tweaking. Get rid of the option to go neutral as it was before.
 

Junglekitty

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Folkstyle ISN'T free. Control is rewarded from top and neutral, not position. Escape or reversal from control is rewarded as well. People talk about boring top riding and want to put guys back up on their feet, smh. By far the position with the most time wasted with boring wrestling is in neutral.

It's hard to keep a guy from escaping. That's why a lot of guys aren't good at it. It's also hard to get out from a guy that's good on top.

We see first periods go by all the time with 3 minutes of no scoring. Most of them are extremely boring. Riding a guy for 2 minutes is seldom boring. Count me way out on any more rule changes that bring guys back to their feet without effort. We have already given guys the option to choose neutral in a period. That is enough.

We have rules against stalling on top. You keep running a guy off the mat, you're going to get dinged. AB got dinged - as he should have. Most of the bitchin' was because he got dinged one go too late. That's a ref problem in a specific bout - I've seen plenty of matches where he would have got dinged a go before.

I like folkstyle. Tons of exciting matches this weekend.

I'd agree that the OT rules in the tiebreak need tweaking. Get rid of the option to go neutral as it was before.
A little confused by your reply as neither cup or myself mentioned taking the freestyle approach and standing guys up.

I only mentioned the riding time point being given either after swipes or nf points being earned. My other suggestion is when a guy intentionally releases his opponent (starting neutral after a stop in action) then the escape point is not awarded, since it should be earned.
 

nitlion6

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Mar 26, 2012
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Folkstyle ISN'T free. Control is rewarded from top and neutral, not position. Escape or reversal from control is rewarded as well. People talk about boring top riding and want to put guys back up on their feet, smh. By far the position with the most time wasted with boring wrestling is in neutral.

It's hard to keep a guy from escaping. That's why a lot of guys aren't good at it. It's also hard to get out from a guy that's good on top.

We see first periods go by all the time with 3 minutes of no scoring. Most of them are extremely boring. Riding a guy for 2 minutes is seldom boring. Count me way out on any more rule changes that bring guys back to their feet without effort. We have already given guys the option to choose neutral in a period. That is enough.

We have rules against stalling on top. You keep running a guy off the mat, you're going to get dinged. AB got dinged - as he should have. Most of the bitchin' was because he got dinged one go too late. That's a ref problem in a specific bout - I've seen plenty of matches where he would have got dinged a go before.

I like folkstyle. Tons of exciting matches this weekend.

I'd agree that the OT rules in the tiebreak need tweaking. Get rid of the option to go neutral as it was before.
Great and insightful. I agree across the board.

A 3 point takedown that makes the TD more valuable than a back exposure to me is really bad idea.
A 3 pt reversal, why in the hell would we make a reversal more valuable than a takedown. If they made a TD a 3 point score do we then make a reversal a 4pt score?
 

nerfstate

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Oct 10, 2017
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I must be getting old. I like the rules largely how they are. I love riding time--and that a catch and release-only TF is hard to do. I also really like the current freestyle rules. Let's have both!

I don't like intricately described stalling situations that refs must adhere too without the benefit of their judgement. Maybe it's because my memory is foggy, but I seemed to intuitively understand what stalling was as a fan much more when refs were given a lot more lee-way.

Wrestling fans are obsessed with rule changes for some reason. I'd love for some of the mid-season tourneys to become testing grounds for rule changes, points of emphasis, and other ideas. There are too often unintended conseequences--and testing things out with a data-minded apporach would help avoid many of those.
 

CSauertiegPSU

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Only thing I think I’d like to see is the below the knee 5 count be expanded to when bottom guy is standing and the top guy just grabs a single leg and then walks him off. Similarly, I’d like it to be a definitive stall call when the guy walks someone off like that to get a restart. Ferrari did it all last year and Max got very good at it this year. I don’t hate the player, but it’s a bad game.
 
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PAgeologist

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Maybe an additional RT point for 2:00 minutes but you need NF to get it.

Perhaps a tweak of the team scoring for matches with no NF worth less than ones with.

Wouldn't have a problem with first TD being 3 points.

Get rid of neutral option in OT Rideout. That's garbage.

Stalling just needs to be more aggressively and more importantly consistently called. Seems too many refs lose track of the flow of the match. Not really any rule changes required, just training and emphasis. Is a double stall still in the rule book?

Would love to see the edge wrestlers (Hidlay et al) get hammered for constantly being back to the edge.

Wish they would dial back the allowable clubbing and such. It's wrestling. Not MMA. Don't have a problem with most of it, but it does get out of hand at times. Again, maybe no changes needed. Just emphasis.
 

SandBuff

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Aug 6, 2002
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i Have a couple of thoughts on rules change. I would like to make takedowns a bigger factor. I think the emphasis should be to reward the wrestler who shot and completed the takedown. In that case, no escape point should be awarded if the wrestler who scored the takedown elects to go neutral after a restart. If a takedown is scored on a reshot or by scrambling after getting shot on, then normal rules apply.
I don’t like that a takedown normal leads to a 1pt advantage. If you get 2 takedowns and the opponent does nothing, then the score should be 4-0, not 4-2. This will give an advantage to the wrestler who shoots as opposed to those who don’t ant just react to what the other wrestlers does.
my other suggestion is that a medical forfeit should be award as a regular win to the other team, while subtracting the bonus points from the team that is forfeiting. the other team did nothing to deserve the bonus.
 

KCLion

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Jun 8, 2001
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i Have a couple of thoughts on rules change. I would like to make takedowns a bigger factor. I think the emphasis should be to reward the wrestler who shot and completed the takedown. In that case, no escape point should be awarded if the wrestler who scored the takedown elects to go neutral after a restart. If a takedown is scored on a reshot or by scrambling after getting shot on, then normal rules apply.
I don’t like that a takedown normal leads to a 1pt advantage. If you get 2 takedowns and the opponent does nothing, then the score should be 4-0, not 4-2. This will give an advantage to the wrestler who shoots as opposed to those who don’t ant just react to what the other wrestlers does.
my other suggestion is that a medical forfeit should be award as a regular win to the other team, while subtracting the bonus points from the team that is forfeiting. the other team did nothing to deserve the bonus.
So I am not a good top guy and I can go ahead and save a point by just admitting that and letting you go?
 
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RB-Old

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I'd like a "pre-warning" for stalling when guys are getting pushed out and not circling back in or when they refuse to wrestle anywhere but on the edge. Just have the ref say "Green, either work toward the middle or I'm going to hit you with stalling." Basically just give them a chance to not get hit since it's called so inconsistently.
 

PAgeologist

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i Have a couple of thoughts on rules change. I would like to make takedowns a bigger factor. I think the emphasis should be to reward the wrestler who shot and completed the takedown. In that case, no escape point should be awarded if the wrestler who scored the takedown elects to go neutral after a restart. If a takedown is scored on a reshot or by scrambling after getting shot on, then normal rules apply.
I don’t like that a takedown normal leads to a 1pt advantage. If you get 2 takedowns and the opponent does nothing, then the score should be 4-0, not 4-2. This will give an advantage to the wrestler who shoots as opposed to those who don’t ant just react to what the other wrestlers does.
my other suggestion is that a medical forfeit should be award as a regular win to the other team, while subtracting the bonus points from the team that is forfeiting. the other team did nothing to deserve the bonus.
Agree with what your concepts regarding takedowns vs escapes, but it seems to put too much on the refs judgement. And as we have seen, many don't seem to have the greatest awareness.

I agree also with the bonus for MFFs. Plus it should be counted as a loss in the conference tournament and hurt seeding. Even if they assign a mandatory drop of 1 or 2 seed positions per MFF.
 
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PAgeologist

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I'd like a "pre-warning" for stalling when guys are getting pushed out and not circling back in or when they refuse to wrestle anywhere but on the edge. Just have the ref say "Green, either work toward the middle or I'm going to hit you with stalling." Basically just give them a chance to not get hit since it's called so inconsistently.
If you listen, many refs to talk during the action with similar instructions. They just don't seem to hit the offending wrestler fast enough.
 
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OzarkLion

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The biggest changes I think need to be made are:

-Stall calls for wrestlers who stand at the edge (or even out of bounds completely), negating any offensive opportunity for the other wrestler.

-Eliminate riding time on OT rideouts. If the score is still tied after the 2 30 second starts, put them back on their feet.

-Call stalling on top wrestlers who repeatedly drop/hook the leg and get a 4 count, only to come up for a second or 2, and repeat. This is typically followed by the stand up/run out of bounds that others described. These wrestlers are obviously gaming the system, but objectively are still stalling and should be called.
 

Cowbell Man

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or when choosing to go neutral after a restart, the down wrestler does not get the escape point. I’m more in favor of the latter since that point should be “earned”.
I don’t follow. If wrestler A has the choice by rule and chooses neutral, wrestler B is not awarded an escape point because wrestler B never in the down position.

However, if wrestler A has the choice and chooses down, wrestler B can cover wrestler A, choose the optional start, or just let them up before a restart (meaning neutral). Wrestler A is in fact down and should be awarded a point. Why should wrestler B be allowed to dictate Wrestler A strategy when wrestler A owns the choice?
 
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PAgeologist

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There should be a 3rd party for reviews. Like NHL hockey. Officials should not be reviewing their own calls. No need to have them at the match. Just adapt a similar system as the NHL.

Also, allow the second official make some calls or stop requiring 2 officials. Unless I'm missing something, he seems to do nothing but moral support for the main guy. I will make the exception that aspiring officials should be required to be second official to gain match experience. Perhaps that is the purpose?
 
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Ski

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Just make a reversal worth 3 and have the referees actually enforce the rest of the rules as they are written, especially on stalling. No other changes are needed.
 

PAgeologist

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I'll have to get back to this. Still absorbing the new F1 rules. Go Ferrari!
I'm watching the replay right now. Much different looking cars this year. Not sure what I think yet. May wait until later in the season to decide. Let the teams sort things out. Don't want to hijack the thread but holy tire changes. Perhaps we need an F1 thread?
 
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Junglekitty

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I don’t follow. If wrestler A has the choice by rule and chooses neutral, wrestler B is not awarded an escape point because wrestler B never in the down position.

However, if wrestler A has the choice and chooses down, wrestler B can cover wrestler A, choose the optional start, or just let them up before a restart (meaning neutral). Wrestler A is in fact down and should be awarded a point. Why should wrestler B be allowed to dictate Wrestler A strategy when wrestler A owns the choice?
Not what I meant.

Let’s say wrestler A has secured a takedown on B and they go out of bounds. Wrestler A then chooses to go neutral ( still in the first period ), and work for additional takedowns. B is not awarded a point for an escape.
 

nitlion6

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Just make a reversal worth 3 and have the referees actually enforce the rest of the rules as they are written, especially on stalling. No other changes are needed.
So a TD is worth less than a reversal?
 

SandBuff

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So I am not a good top guy and I can go ahead and save a point by just admitting that and letting you go?
It’s much more difficult to complete a takedown that it is to get a release, so I think a 2 pt differential is appropriate.
 

CJFisJoePaII

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The biggest changes I think need to be made are:

-Stall calls for wrestlers who stand at the edge (or even out of bounds completely), negating any offensive opportunity for the other wrestler.

-Eliminate riding time on OT rideouts. If the score is still tied after the 2 30 second starts, put them back on their feet.

-Call stalling on top wrestlers who repeatedly drop/hook the leg and get a 4 count, only to come up for a second or 2, and repeat. This is typically followed by the stand up/run out of bounds that others described. These wrestlers are obviously gaming the system, but objectively are still stalling and should be called.

Honestly, don't understand the "stall warning" on a 5 second count - if you've clearly lost control of bottom wrestler and are just hanging on an ankle for dear life in pure desperation, than the remedy should be an ESC is awarded and both wrestlers restart on their feet (i.e., the bottom wrestler should be awarded, not the top wrestler. A stall warning awards top wrestler as they restart in top position and continue to accumulate riding time). I also think they need to institute a count once bottom wrestler has stood - top wrestler should be required to return bottom wrestler to mat within a specific amount of time or same remedy, ESC awarded and restart in Neutral. If a top wrestler rides a standing bottom wrestler OB to avoid count expiration or looking for a new top position restart, same remedy - ESC granted, restart in Neutral.
 

Hotshoe

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I'm watching the replay right now. Much different looking cars this year. Not sure what I think yet. May wait until later in the season to decide. Let the teams sort things out. Don't want to hijack the thread but holy tire changes. Perhaps we need an F1 thread?
Yes we do!
 

Hotshoe

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Disastrous day for Red Bull, Bottas was hanging with the big boys and Haas might be a 2nd tier team? I know it's early but it seems like they're racing in the upside down.
Yeah, despite get any worse than losing 2 cars with 2 laps to go and on the last lap. I don't think I've ever seen that. It was like someone threw a switch on both engines.
 
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El-Jefe

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1. We need the pushout rule. Stop fearing nonstop sumo matches, and accept that these guys will adjust to new rules as they adjusted to the Heil Rule, in this case by working to stay away from the edge. It will force matches toward the center, generate more action, and reduce the number of stoppages -- which also gives an advantage to better conditioned wrestlers.

Actually that's not quite right -- these guys years ago adjusted to it for the other 6 months of the year.

Or, as @Johnbrooks put it:


2. Eliminate riding time. Keep riding -- but ditch the incentive to waste time in order to be on the correct side of 1:00.

I like the idea of only counting RT when NF is scored -- but see that as a logistical nightmare for refs and scorekeepers. Keep it simple.

3. Make the OT stall-out periods 1:00 each and eliminate RT from them. That gives top time to score, or for either to score after an escape. Plus ditching RT gives top an incentive to score instead of clinging for dear life.

4. Any ref who calls "action" instead of stalling, gets tasered. OK, that will never actually happen, still.
 
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Hotshoe

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1. We need the pushout rule. Stop fearing nonstop sumo matches, and accept that these guys will adjust to new rules as they adjusted to the Heil Rule, in this case by working to stay away from the edge. It will force matches toward the center, generate more action, and reduce the number of stoppages -- which also gives an advantage to better conditioned wrestlers.

Actually that's not quite right -- these guys years ago adjusted to it for the other 6 months of the year.

Or, as @Johnbrooks put it:



2. Eliminate riding time. Keep riding -- but ditch the incentive to waste time in order to be on the correct side of 1:00.

I like the idea of only counting RT when NF is scored -- but see that as a logistical nightmare for refs and scorekeepers. Keep it simple.

3. Make the OT stall-out periods 1:00 each and eliminate RT from them. That gives top time to score, or for either to score after an escape. Plus ditching RT gives top an incentive to score instead of clinging for dear life.

4. Any ref who calls "action" instead of stalling, gets tasered. OK, that will never actually happen, still.
I would agree if you allow a guy to run around to stay in bounds. A longer, taller guy has a clear advantage to push. We saw that with the 197 final.
 

Ski

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I would agree if you allow a guy to run around to stay in bounds. A longer, taller guy has a clear advantage to push. We saw that with the 197 final.
Also, don't count this as a scoring push out: At the whistle the bottom wrestler gets to his feet, the top wrestler then leans back lifting the bottom wrestler's feet mostly off of the mat and carries him to the edge and outside the circle. Rinse. Repeat. Some team has perfected it.
 
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El-Jefe

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Also, don't count this as a scoring push out: At the whistle the bottom wrestler gets to his feet, the top wrestler then leans back lifting the bottom wrestler's feet mostly off of the mat and carries him to the edge and outside the circle. Rinse. Repeat. Some team has perfected it.
That's a clear top stall and was called on Aaron, but agreed not called enough.
 

El-Jefe

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I would agree if you allow a guy to run around to stay in bounds. A longer, taller guy has a clear advantage to push. We saw that with the 197 final.
Let them do that while 2 ft inbounds. Like they do in the other 6 months.
 
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Cowbell Man

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Not what I meant.

Let’s say wrestler A has secured a takedown on B and they go out of bounds. Wrestler A then chooses to go neutral ( still in the first period ), and work for additional takedowns. B is not awarded a point for an escape.
Ah. I get it. That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification…I was like, Wut? Lol
 
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LongJakk

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I like the riding time only after a TD or reversal. I also like the 5 seconds for a mat return like in HS. How about a 3 or 5 second stall rule for neutral standing with both feet OOB? I'm also not a fan of continual mat returns and repeated ankle grabs. If you do it twice in short succession give bottom choice of stall call or automatic escape.
 

nitlion6

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In Folkstyle a pushout has a huge impact versus free. In folk a TD is worth 2 and an escape 1. If we adopt a pushout rule and award a point, then Marinelli in the Big10 finals becomes a prominent part of most matches. A pushout is equal to TD - escape. If within 10 feet of the edge, why bother scoring just push out. Some of the very best wrestling happens at the edge, and yes I know that is because so many run there before engaging.
The edge calls should be simple, if you push or drive out that is a stall. If you shoot a shot at the edge that results in OOBs then the defensive wrestler is stalling. If you repeatedly drift to the edge you are stalling. If you have two feet on the line or OOBs, a silent 5 count and you haven't moved in you are stalling.
Trent Hidlay when wrestling an accomplished opponent should simply be stalled out at the beginning of the match.
 
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El-Jefe

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In Folkstyle a pushout has a huge impact versus free. In folk a TD is worth 2 and an escape 1. If we adopt a pushout rule and award a point, then Marinelli in the Big10 finals becomes a prominent part of most matches. A pushout is equal to TD - escape. If within 10 feet of the edge, why bother scoring just push out. Some of the very best wrestling happens at the edge, and yes I know that is because so many run there before engaging.
The edge calls should be simple, if you push or drive out that is a stall. If you shoot a shot at the edge that results in OOBs then the defensive wrestler is stalling. If you repeatedly drift to the edge you are stalling. If you have two feet on the line or OOBs, a silent 5 count and you haven't moved in you are stalling.
Trent Hidlay when wrestling an accomplished opponent should simply be stalled out at the beginning of the match.
And how many more years of evidence do we need that the refs won't call that?
 

RoarLions1

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Just for perspective for the normal rule change cycles...we are in the first year of the current two-year interpretations (rules) manual for NCAA Wrestling. Significant changes occur every two years, so the next release will be for the 2023-24 and 2024-25 seasons.

What has been done in the past is emphasize existing rules. For example, some of the stall rides noted here and on other forums could become a point of emphasis. OB changes (pushout), 3-pt takedowns, changing riding time, etc. are major change topics. Good discussions that will surely continue through next year at this time.
 

Junglekitty

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Just for perspective for the normal rule change cycles...we are in the first year of the current two-year interpretations (rules) manual for NCAA Wrestling. Significant changes occur every two years, so the next release will be for the 2023-24 and 2024-25 seasons.

What has been done in the past is emphasize existing rules. For example, some of the stall rides noted here and on other forums could become a point of emphasis. OB changes (pushout), 3-pt takedowns, changing riding time, etc. are major change topics. Good discussions that will surely continue through next year at this time.
I had this discussion with a few people and only found out a few months back that this is the way it is. I like the fact that major changes are done every 2 years for the simple fact that if major changes were done every year, it would be really hard for everyone to keep up and adjust their wrestling and coaching. However, I think there should definitely be exceptions to the rule. If wrestlers have figured out a loophole or away around a rule, then that rule needs to be looked at and maybe a major change should be able to come without waiting the 2 years.

I think what everyone would like to see is a way for subjectivity to be taken out. The action/stalling calls going out of bounds are extremely inconsistent do to it being referee discretion. A 1 pt push out rule would resolve this, but for some reason I'm not in favor of it. Yes, it would help force wrestlers to stay in the center more. However, I have seen numerous scrambles go across the mat and end up out of bounds with a guy getting height and standing up. If he does this out of bounds, by rule, it would be a point for his opponent. I don't think we should start penalizing wrestlers for continuing action and trying to score but they step out. Yes, this may be the only exception to the rule. However, with todays wrestlers, a lot of them are/can scramble well, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
 
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El-Jefe

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Ditto Changing the rules has not helped because the refs still do no consistently enforce the rules as written.
IMO we need some rule changes.

Additionally we need rule reduction, streamlining, and simplification. We do not need more rules, we need fewer and better.

Cael has said the refs are overburdened by the volume of rules. Perhaps someday the NCAA will listen.