I disagree. Have people weigh in their singlet with shoes, etc. and make the appropriate allowance for it.
Proposed Changes after watching the tournament
- Thread starter Agoodnap
- Start date
I disagree. Have people weigh in their singlet with shoes, etc. and make the appropriate allowance for it.
I'm skeptical of the pushout. That said, I see no good reason that great action on the edge couldn't happen in the center of the mat instead.
And I absolutely agree with adding more out of bounds mat area. The Kuhn match is one thing. IMO it's more about safety. That time a couple years ago when Cox ran Wellington hard into the scorer's table, upside down, head first ... Wellington was lucky to not be paralyzed. That was ugly, and avoidable.
Yeah yeah yeah, safety schmafety....
With respect to no reason great action can't happen in the center--you're not wrong in theory, but there's something about the "edge" that great wrestlers seem to use to their advantage to create--that's my feeling anyway. I have nothing to back it up.
If we were able to get larger mats, I'd be open to the Freestyle "continuation" rule too.
I think one of the hard things here, is PSU wrestlers are almost always pushing action. My blue colored glasses really obscure the bigger picture around this specific issue. What we have now seems great to me....
Oh, and I feel the danger rule was a great step forward.
Going back to the original proposition, weighing right next to the mat isn't practical, simply because if someone doesn't quite make weight at that point they'd be out, when in reality, if you don't make it the first time, you get some time to try a second time, or so I understand.
Yeah yeah yeah, safety schmafety....
With respect to no reason great action can't happen in the center--you're not wrong in theory, but there's something about the "edge" that great wrestlers seem to use to their advantage to create--that's my feeling anyway. I have nothing to back it up.
If we were able to get larger mats, I'd be open to the Freestyle "continuation" rule too.
I think one of the hard things here, is PSU wrestlers are almost always pushing action. My blue colored glasses really obscure the bigger picture around this specific issue. What we have now seems great to me....
Oh, and I feel the danger rule was a great step forward.
Yes, the danger rule worked out surprisingly well. Definitely a step in the right direction.
I don't like the arbitrary nature of the stalling for going out of bounds calls. I also don't like the pushout alternative. Just get rid of it and call stalling if it's stalling. Have seen too many head scratcher stall calls for someone going out of bounds where they clearly weren't stalling and if anything were just trying to speed up resetting the action in the center of the mat.
Finally, I like the idea of giving choice to your opponent if you lose a challenge just like they handle injury time.
So in summary:
1) 1-hour weigh-ins or some variation of it before a wrestler's first session of the day.
2) Keep the danger rule.
3) Lose the automatic stall calls for going out of bounds and just call stalling appropriately.
4) Opponent gets choice if you lose a challenge.
5) Cut the bonus points in half in the consolation bracket (or double them in the championship bracket for those who don't like adding decimals).
Your idea would basically eliminate any weight cutting or only allow for very minimal weight cutting. In high school I only cut a maximum of 10 pounds for a season but even then I'm not really drinking any fluids or eating anything until after I weigh in. You're asking guys to step onto the mat potentially dehydrated and no food in their stomach.
Exactly. Or don't engage in unsafe practices. I went down 30 pounds from my football weight for wrestling my senior year of high school and made it a point to stay at least 3 pounds under during wrestling season. I never ate after weigh-ins and didn't have to worry about drinking water because I wasn't dehydrating. It can be done.
The parallel ride was considered stalling at one point and somewhere along the line it was reinterpreted. It is much easier to ride if you can stay back on the hips. I would like to see the parallel ride eliminated. The rule pushout rule is also being interpreted differently. When a wrestler refuses to allow a wrestler to come in bounds or pushes the opposition out just to get a stall call is stalling IMO.
If college wrestling ever went to push out points, I feel a Zone needs added to all mats, all mats need to be the same size and there needs to be a 2nd ref for all matches
The proposal isn't practical, though not for the reason you listed.
In duals, the ref conducts weigh-ins by weight class. If a wrestler doesn't make weight, they get to step off, step back on, and are weighed again. They are limited to 3 attempts. Once all the wrestlers at that weight for both teams have been weighed in, then the weight class is closed, so if a wrestler missed weight they are out. That's why wrestlers will check their weight an hour or more before the weigh-in, and work out if they are over or just at the weight.
In tournaments, it's pretty much the same general process, with a minor tweak. They typically use multiple scales to move the process along. Weigh-ins are done by weight class. If a wrestler does not make weight on their initial weigh-in, then after all other wrestlers at that weight class have weighed in, that wrestler gets one attempt to qualify at each other scale used in the process. After these additional attempts are concluded, for all wrestlers that did not make weight on their 1st attempt, then that weight class is closed.
You're right. And this is generally wrong -- not the you're right part, but wrestlers using the edge to create.
I don't mind it so much when action starts closer to the center, and things just happen to get to the edge -- and the offensive guy finds a creative and/or athletic way to keep things in bounds.
I do mind it when action starts close to the edge, and especially when the defensive guy finds creative ways to force action out or at least force the offensive guy out to neutralize him.
One other thing about the edge rules: the rule change from a few years ago, allowing action and scoring with any part of either wrestler still in bounds, was an overwhelming success. The one drawback is guys doing absolutely nothing but stall riding, keeping one toe or one finger in bounds to kill clock. I think I saw a matches at nationals where the refs stopped action when that happened -- good.
What is the reasoning for the proposed matside weigh-ins? Who was wronged by the way it is today?
Like these, though "call stalling appropriately" unfortunately is akin to "tie Congressional salaries to the national debt." Doesn't mean we stop pressing for it, but good luck.
Yeah yeah yeah, safety schmafety....
Oh, and I feel the danger rule was a great step forward.
Unless your name is Dean Heil.
Yes, sort of. What it would eliminate is the massive, last minute, weight cutting. Essentially, if you showed up to the mat dehydrated you'd probably lose. Wrestlers would need to get their weight under control and maintain that weight, within a couple of pounds or so, all season long.
I can think of several other positive side effects and I can't think of a negative one.
If you are that deprived of nutrition and fluids, you need to be up at the next weight class. You shouldn't be.
How does one run a bottom guy out of bounds? Is bottom not resisting when pressureis applied? Come on. Resist. If you were going to lose a point, you just might consider resisting.
never heard that one before... I don't have any problem w the riding time point as is and I think it adds some drama, but if riding for riding's sake is a real problem, this would be a decent compromise.
Like x 1000. This is why I am not crazy about a pushout point. Some wrestlers would do nothing except play defense and win by pushout. There would be no reason for a guy like Coon to even take a shot. Get an underhook and push forward. WOuldn't get called for stalling because he is so big and powerful that he doesn't have to back up. It would be sumo. Much smarter wrestling guys than me (including Byers) are in favor of the pushout point, so I am probably wrong, but I see downsides.
You don’t have to drink that much fluid to gain all of that weight, nor should you! Athletic trainer/team doctor can run IV’s of saline all day and that fluid goes directly back into the muscle and does not have to pass through the digestive system. It has been used for years in sports with weight classes like boxing, wrestling, and powerlifting. I have done it and have seen it done to break WR in powerlifting.
True, but you can't have an IV without a bandage, right? Where were the bandages or the tape jobs covering the bandages? If no bandages, wouldn't there likely be somebody bleeding (other than Meredith and Snyder from the forehead)?
I don't doubt that. But I'm still asking: who were the guys getting IVs on Saturday to gain weight? How long did they have to be under the drip to gain that much weight? Where were the bandages, tape jobs, and blood?
As long as you have normal clotting factors without any medication thinners place and hold bandage on site for a few minutes and bleeding is done. There would be a mark and if done regularly, marks.
True, and to some extent that would alleviate bandages and tape jobs ... except this is a very physical sport, old wounds open all the time -- see the Snyder-Coon matches. One would think some wound would've reopened in some match.
I'll back off this. Didn't mean to rabbit hole this thread.
I like the stalling when backing off the mat rule. What I do not like is the inconsistency of the calls. A big reason I would hate to get rid of it and depend upon officials to just call stalling is when a direct objective is removed and replaced with subjectivity, call consistency completely disappears.
A call I would love to see implemented for mat wrestling as well as neutral offensive wrestling (scrambling) is once a singular wrestler stops working to improve his position call stalling.
I think a fair compromise would be to have the previously eliminated wrestler (from the previous championship or conso bracket) wrestle in place of the guy who med forfeited out. That wrestler could no longer earn team points but could advance their placement.
This way no one get a match off or free bonus points.
If a wrestler is on bottom and gets to the point where both wrestlers are on their feet with the bottom wrestler holding on to the controlling wrestler's elevated leg (hopping), an escape is awarded. In such a situation it is ludicrous that the wrestler doing the hop is still accruing riding time. Don't let the riding time clock continue to run on the chance of awarding a reversal. If there is a subsequent take down, award the two points. This would work nicely in conjunction with three points for a reversal.
I think I like the idea in theory. There were a couple examples this year where it might apply -- in the final medal matches: 125 7th (Bresser over Moisey) and 174 5th (BoJo over Kutler).
If understand your idea correctly:
- 125: Moisey elimiinated LaMont. Therefore LaMont could wrestle in the 7th/8th match. Then two 8th place medals would be given (Moisey and the Bresser/LaMont loser). Right?
- 174: This one is a lot more complicated. Kutler beat Kocer in the consi quarters, then injury defaulted to Lewis in the consi semis. Therefore, Kocer would wrestle Jordan for 5th, and two 6th place medals would be given (Kutler and the Jordan/Kocer loser). Then Kocer would need to be replaced in the 7th place match -- we then promote Bernstein (who Kocer eliminated in the bloodround)?
Not sure I'd like this if I'm the wrestler who now has to face a resuscitated opponent. Generally more wrestling is good, and you have to beat the guy in front of you. However, I'd be pissed if I missed a medal because I lost to a guy who was already eliminated. Why does he get another chance and I don't?
I think I'd take it even worse if I got knocked out of the winners' bracket by a guy who already lost. And in that case, I don't know how to square team points -- can't award team points for his subsequent advancement, but what would he have earned in consis?
Virtually no one leaps out of bounds anymore without getting called for stalling. IMO, it's more likely that a wrestler who sprawls effectively gets nailed for stalling on the edge if he doesn't immediately reengage.
There are two fixes to this both which don't need a rule change. Finish the reversal or let him go.
Wouldn’t that mean that they would cut weight right up until the match? How is that better?
Just curious after reading 117 posts...is college wrestling really in need of major rule changes? Current rules apply to all, so the playing field is level, imo.
Tweaking to add excitement as the sport tries to grow seems reasonable to me. Change for change sake is insanity, and modifying rules where no problem exists is a waste.
Tweaking to add excitement as the sport tries to grow seems reasonable to me. Change for change sake is insanity, and modifying rules where no problem exists is a waste.
Disagree. First, I should have said "hop" not "leap". Guy gets a single leg and they are both moving all over the mat. They get close to edge and defensive wrestler works his way out of bounds. Lurches out of bounds pulling offensive guy with him. Tug of war. It's wrestling, yes, but it is also a means to escape the takedown. Saw it many times at NCAAs. Do splits, etc.
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yea, may be the one that needs fixed right away!! Solution, award the escape right away... if the wrestler turns it into a reversal then give him one more at that time. But the first escape is critical to stop the riding time clock when top man is not even close to being in control.
I want fleeing called more like international styles.
If a guy gets to a leg and you bail out of bounds, BAM... Ding 'em.
If you're on bottom and don't make every attempt to stay in bounds, BAM... Ding 'em.
If you're on top, bottom stands up, and you run them out of bounds, BAM... Ding 'em.
Too many guys look to the out of bounds as a way out or to a fresh start, and especially in folkstyle, where a fresh start can mean the world to a match, I want a guy dinged for willingly leaving the wrestling surface.
If a guy gets to a leg and you bail out of bounds, BAM... Ding 'em.
If you're on bottom and don't make every attempt to stay in bounds, BAM... Ding 'em.
If you're on top, bottom stands up, and you run them out of bounds, BAM... Ding 'em.
Too many guys look to the out of bounds as a way out or to a fresh start, and especially in folkstyle, where a fresh start can mean the world to a match, I want a guy dinged for willingly leaving the wrestling surface.
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