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PIAA Sports for Fall 2020, Ongoing Discussion

clucas said:
Being an AD in TN, we are experiencing the same frustrations and let me echo what I believe lionscott said about the complexities around the decision making. All of the high level state leadership who should be making the decisions, are kicking it down to the individual schools (and school leadership are left to be the ones making decisions in an absolute no-win situation). In TN, our governor announced on Tuesday that contact sports were free to move forward immediately, which is mind-boggling given our current state statistics/numbers. Dr. Birx was in Nashville the day before informing us that we are considered one of the "red" states at the federal level (whatever that means, not trying to turn this political) and that we needed to consider phasing back. The Governor's response was, "Thanks, we'll take that into consideration..." and then proceeds to give the green light to contact sports.

Less than 24 hours later, a Metro Davidson County (Nashville) Health Dept. letter was published asking schools to pledge to have no interscholastic competition until at least after Labor Day. WTF is going on? The Governor says one thing, counties are saying another...it's a complete s***show with no leadership.

BTW, if anyone can make the argument of how football can be safely played in this environment, I would be glad to hear it...I haven't heard a valid argument yet.

I can give you our situation...we have been painstakingly planning and creating protocols around having our kids back in school in-person, 5 days/week as well as giving the families the option of choosing virtual learning if they don't feel comfortable in person (I believe we have 24 students so far who will be doing this). We get the burden on parents if the structure is otherwise. People need to have their kids in school both from the standpoint of what is good for the child (mental health and development) and for parents to get back to work. We get it. Our protocols include wearing masks all day, 3 way plexi-glass partitions around desks, social distancing desks in classrooms, disallowing parents on campus during the day, limiting other visitors to what is necessary, meticulously structuring how students move through campus so as to minimize them walking by each other, creating programming/schedule/classes that minimize exposure (keeping small cohorts together), eating lunch in advisory groups, and the list goes on and on.

Then, at 3:30, we throw it all out the window for athletics...they can't wear masks for most sports, certainly can't social distance in sports like soccer and football, we get on buses and travel to interface with other kids from other schools, we have outside groups to our campus for athletic events, we mix grade levels for teams....it's madness! We have one set of protocols for school and then a completely different set that conflicts with almost everything we are doing from 8:00-3:30pm. This is education-based athletics and athletics are one facet of the overall experience at a school. My view is that athletics are co-curricular, an extension of the classroom. How does this approach of conflicting protocols make sense? I can't justify it.

All that to say, I think it's hard for people on the outside to understand how difficult this has all been and continues to be. School leadership are under a tremendous amount of pressure and they really can't win with any decision they make and mix in that high level leadership at the state and federal level is simply punting the hard decisions to wash their hands of it.
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Excellent post. Thank you for your perspective.
 
marshall23 said:
You could have stopped with.....parents are the worst. I am thankful that I had parents that let me engage in sports and NEVER spoke to the coach or anyone about things like my SELF ESTEEM. My Dad was busting his ass 60 hours a week to keep his business running. There were times when I didn't think he even knew I was on a team. When I was a freshman I played jv football. We played after school so he never came to any games. He had a job. On the final game of the season, we played a few miles from his business. I didn't see him there, didn't expect him there and therefor didn't look around for him. I happened to catch a short sideline pass and shook loose to score on a long run after the catch. Later my Mother told me that my Dad started running down the field yelling,"go kid....go kid..." I could not have been more surprised that he would cheer for me. Honestly, if it hadn't been that my Mom told me I would not have believed it.
Later, in my senior season, I must have said something that he interpreted as a negative about my coach (PS I Idolized my coach and would never have knowingly criticized him).....very quietly, Dad looked up from his dinner plate and said,"if playing football doesn't make you happy, you can always come home from school and work for me." I made it a point after that to discuss sports only when asked a question.
I learned in the grand scheme of things, my participation in athletics was a privilege. Any issues I had while participating, were up to me to deal with. I can't help but chuckle when I read parents crying about how no in person instruction and no sports will stunt the mental and social development of their children. As if interfering in every aspect of your child's life is healthy.
Unfortunately, every discussion with administrators of athletics and sport officials today, deals with either incidents or concerns about the actions or potential reactions of parents.
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Good story. Certainly parental involvement (or over-involvement) in any sport can ruin things but in my opinion, football parents are the most demanding even at a school where the football team has always been terrible and will continue to be terrible. I am the design engineer for a recent stadium upgrade at our school district. I had some great insight into the discussions that went on regarding how we would "frame" the project so that it seemed like a major benefit to the entire school when for the most part, it was a new turf field, locker room building, bleachers, press box and lighting for the football team. The football parents and coaches made every decision. They barely have enough kids to field a team.
 
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Safety Blitz said:
If we step back and take a look, it becomes pretty clear the PIAA hasn’t made any decisions at all. It’s guidance is basically Play On. Tossed in a couple options for starting dates in an effort to accommodate any school district plans heard to date. And added a couple obvious suggestions about handling tennis balls and assigning volleyball benches, etc.
PIAA was not about to make any decisions that would bring any rath down on the organization, let alone do anything that might bring about the L word — Litigation.
The PIAA is going to let the Governor take all the heat if fall athletics are cancelled. Anyone expecting anything different from the PIAA hasn’t been paying attention to its operating history.
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We made the decision to push our start back to 9/21 pending approval of Governor Cuomo two weeks ago. This was the recommendation of the NYSPHSAA COVID Task Force and approved by the Organizations Officers. When it was announced our Executive Director was savaged on twitter. It was really incredible....both the volume and the vitriol. Perhaps Mr. Lombardi was observing.
 
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wilbury said:
Good story. Certainly parental involvement (or over-involvement) in any sport can ruin things but in my opinion, football parents are the most demanding even at a school where the football team has always been terrible and will continue to be terrible. I am the design engineer for a recent stadium upgrade at our school district. I had some great insight into the discussions that went on regarding how we would "frame" the project so that it seemed like a major benefit to the entire school when for the most part, it was a new turf field, locker room building, bleachers, press box and lighting for the football team. The football parents and coaches made every decision. They barely have enough kids to field a team.
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If that is the way it went down.....shame on your athletic director. During our field project (11 years ago, right before I retired) I engaged the soccer parents by explaining that field turf and lights meant not only football, but boys and girls varsity soccer could take "center stage." Without voter approval we would have a natural grass surface and soccer would not be able to use the field (perhaps one game per year). The project to have the field turf passed with flying colors. During home football games, I employed a sharing of revenues among sport boosters with the proceeds from the concessions at home football games. Football will always drive the bus, IMO, but there should be avenues for other sports to be represented.
 
wilbury said:
My daughter will be a senior tennis player. A sport that should really have no issues as a result of this virus so long as a few adjustments are made. Word on the street is that football parents are already planting the seed that if they can't play, no sport should play because you know that wouldn't be "fair". Parents are the worst, especially high school football parents who can't seem to realize that their kids aren't going to the NFL.
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Screw HS Football.
My sons runs XC—. Tennis, golf and cross country has no issues completing their season. I have a senior boy and a sophomore girl. I am tired of this argument of if football can’t play no other sports shouldn’t either
 
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sunshinedynomite said:
Screw HS Football.
My sons runs XC—. Tennis, golf and cross country has no issues completing their season. I have a senior boy and a sophomore girl. I am tired of this argument of if football can’t play no other sports shouldn’t either
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I think you are right. Let those sports that will have extremely low potential for spread go ahead and compete. I would even say fall soccer should be played, again minimized risk even with picking up the ball for throw ins and the contact. They are not wrapping up and piling up like football.
 
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RickinDayton said:
I think you right. Let those sports that will have extremely low potential for spread. Go ahead and compete. I would even say fall soccer should be played, again minimized risk even with picking up the ball for throw ins and the contact. They are not wrapping up and piling up like football.
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agree. have a jr. grandson in the same position. he's a pretty good soccer player and would like to play in college. missing a year of competition will certainly cause him to lose a season experience that will help his growth. we're hoping all can sports can play, but if soccer is seen as low risk, they and any other non risk programs should be allowed to go on.
 
lockhavenlion3 said:
agree. have a jr. grandson in the same position. he's a pretty good soccer player and would like to play in college. missing a year of competition will certainly cause him to lose a season experience that will help his growth. we're hoping all can sports can play, but if soccer is seen as low risk, they and any other non risk programs should be allowed to go on.
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My youngest granddaughter in TN is part of a club team. Right now they are having conditioning and non-contact drills several days per week. Scrimmaging within the team will begin in a few weeks and then decisions will be made in conjunction with the parents on playing other clubs within the County and possibly a few games in neighboring states.
Two of my grandsons in TN play ice hockey. They are currently practicing on ice (conditioning and drills). Again, awaiting decision on games. Oldest plays on a county wide HS club team and youngest is on Predators youth development program. I support their participation and it is being done safely. The kids need this activity. Have we forgotten that physical activity improves our immune system?
 
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lockhavenlion3 said:
agree. have a jr. grandson in the same position. he's a pretty good soccer player and would like to play in college. missing a year of competition will certainly cause him to lose a season experience that will help his growth. we're hoping all can sports can play, but if soccer is seen as low risk, they and any other non risk programs should be allowed to go on.
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a LOT of assumptions there.

I was at a soccer tournament this morning, that was just high school-age kids playing for their respective travel teams. The tournament is taking place Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. On Friday, two U-18 girls teams (basically high school juniors or seniors) played a match. Af some point after the match, one of the players tested positive for COVID-19. (I don't think they are testing all players that compete, but I could be mistaken.)

As a result, all players on both teams are now quarantined for two weeks. The coaches of the respective teams are also quarantined for two weeks. I know the center ref is also quarantined; I didn't hear if the two assistant refs have been quarantined, but I expect they have been as well. I also did not learn if the parents of the team whose player tested positive have been quarantined, or if the parents of the opposing team have been quarantined.

The rest of the tournament is still running (well, I believe the bracket in which the two aforementioned teams were playing has been canceled, as it was 4 teams, and each would play the other 3 teams 1 time during the tournament; not much of a way to salvage that bracket).

Since the tournament is still taking place, you could say this is an isolated incident that only impacted two teams and 1 - 3 refs. How big an impact won't be known for a week or more.

Or, you could say that this incident is indicative of what's out there, and the risks to players, coaches, officials, and parents from an attitude of "just play, the risks are low" is too great to justify playing.

Frankly, I don't think anybody knows how risky it is or is not to play high school sports in the fall. I don't envy anyone that is in a decision making position with regard to these sports. That said, if it were my grandkids that were on a respective team, I would be pretty damn concerned about their taking part in the sport.
 
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Tom McAndrew said:
a LOT of assumptions there.

I was at a soccer tournament this morning, that was just high school-age kids playing for their respective travel teams. The tournament is taking place Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. On Friday, two U-18 girls teams (basically high school juniors or seniors) played a match. Af some point after the match, one of the players tested positive for COVID-19. (I don't think they are testing all players that compete, but I could be mistaken.)

As a result, all players on both teams are now quarantined for two weeks. The coaches of the respective teams are also quarantined for two weeks. I know the center ref is also quarantined; I didn't hear if the two assistant refs have been quarantined, but I expect they have been as well. I also did not learn if the parents of the team whose player tested positive have been quarantined, or if the parents of the opposing team have been quarantined.

The rest of the tournament is still running (well, I believe the bracket in which the two aforementioned teams were playing has been canceled, as it was 4 teams, and each would play the other 3 teams 1 time during the tournament; not much of a way to salvage that bracket).

Since the tournament is still taking place, you could say this is an isolated incident that only impacted two teams and 1 - 3 refs. How big an impact won't be known for a week or more.

Or, you could say that this incident is indicative of what's out there, and the risks to players, coaches, officials, and parents from an attitude of "just play, the risks are low" is too great to justify playing.

Frankly, I don't think anybody knows how risky it is or is not to play high school sports in the fall. I don't envy anyone that is in a decision making position with regard to these sports. That said, if it were my grandkids that were on a respective team, I would be pretty damn concerned about their taking part in the sport.
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1 question Tom. Why was there no testing prior to the match?
 
Tom McAndrew said:
a LOT of assumptions there.

I was at a soccer tournament this morning, that was just high school-age kids playing for their respective travel teams. The tournament is taking place Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. On Friday, two U-18 girls teams (basically high school juniors or seniors) played a match. Af some point after the match, one of the players tested positive for COVID-19. (I don't think they are testing all players that compete, but I could be mistaken.)

As a result, all players on both teams are now quarantined for two weeks. The coaches of the respective teams are also quarantined for two weeks. I know the center ref is also quarantined; I didn't hear if the two assistant refs have been quarantined, but I expect they have been as well. I also did not learn if the parents of the team whose player tested positive have been quarantined, or if the parents of the opposing team have been quarantined.

The rest of the tournament is still running (well, I believe the bracket in which the two aforementioned teams were playing has been canceled, as it was 4 teams, and each would play the other 3 teams 1 time during the tournament; not much of a way to salvage that bracket).

Since the tournament is still taking place, you could say this is an isolated incident that only impacted two teams and 1 - 3 refs. How big an impact won't be known for a week or more.

Or, you could say that this incident is indicative of what's out there, and the risks to players, coaches, officials, and parents from an attitude of "just play, the risks are low" is too great to justify playing.

Frankly, I don't think anybody knows how risky it is or is not to play high school sports in the fall. I don't envy anyone that is in a decision making position with regard to these sports. That said, if it were my grandkids that were on a respective team, I would be pretty damn concerned about their taking part in the sport.
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When you are a superintendent of schools and your primary concern is getting students back to school and keeping them there......interscholastic athletics, in virtually any form (low risk, moderate etc.) is perhaps a bridge too far right now. Engaging students from other districts, in some cases, outside of the county etc. is just one more opportunity for exposure.
So many questions.....who is responsible for testing/ monitoring the status of game officials?
How many buses would we need to transport 1 football team of 48 members. We've been told 3. LOL.....who can afford this?
 
marshall23 said:
When you are a superintendent of schools and your primary concern is getting students back to school and keeping them there......interscholastic athletics, in virtually any form (low risk, moderate etc.) is perhaps a bridge too far right now. Engaging students from other districts, in some cases, outside of the county etc. is just one more opportunity for exposure.
So many questions.....who is responsible for testing/ monitoring the status of game officials?
How many buses would we need to transport 1 football team of 48 members. We've been told 3. LOL.....who can afford this?
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In high school, we (Officials) haven’t been told Anything about testing or not showing up if you are sick yet. PIAA is allowing us to do our chapter meetings online this year.

For college, almost all of my d2 and d3 games are cancelled. For p5 conferences, schedules aren’t out completely and it’s still up in the air, but one conference we are to take our temperature twice each day and enter it into a spreadsheet for the conference to monitor.
 
RickinDayton said:
1 question Tom. Why was there no testing prior to the match?
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I don't know the specifics. It's unclear to me if the girl had tested on her own in the days prior to the match, or was actually tested that day either pre- or post-match for whatever reason.

Testing is not cheap. Instant testing is very expensive, and generally is only available in hospitals or other critical locations.

I was at a LAX tournament last weekend (also all high school age), and I know that no players, coaches, or refs were tested as part of the tournament. I really doubt that the soccer players were tested as part of the tournament I referenced in my earlier post. These tournaments are already really expensive for the teams (and thus the parents of the players), and they also operate with a skeleton crew of people running them (outside of the officials, which are independent contractors that agree to officiate the tournament). I know a guy that works for an organization that runs sports tournaments across the country. Based on what he's told me (we never specifically discussed COVID testing and tournaments), they run on a shoestring, with little extra money available for unusual events. In that context, I don't see any way that the tournament could pay for, or provide, the testing.

You can expand that to the high schools (which is the focus of this thread). As far as I know, very, very few of them have the resources to test all their regular students 1 time. I doubt that any of them have the resources to conduct ongoing testing of their athletes. @marshall23 probably can speak to this with more knowledge than I can.
 
Using the district that I retired from, fall sport offerings would normally be:
Football 3 levels (varsity, jv modified (7-8 grade) 100 plus students
Soccer 3 levels boys and girls (6 teams) 100 plus students
Girls Tennis one level 12 students
Girls Swimming one level 25-30 students
Cross Country 2 levels boys and girls 100 students
Volleyball (girls) 3 levels 48-50 students
Game day/ Spirit Cheer 25 students

So a normal fall would see this district (which would fall about AAA in the PIAA an estimate) 400-420 students 7-12 would be engaged in interscholastic sports. We are a fortunate district. We have 1 athletic trainer. Even if tests were available, the cost would be prohibitive and who would be the full time employees that would administer, and monitor results?
 
Tom McAndrew said:
a LOT of assumptions there.

I was at a soccer tournament this morning, that was just high school-age kids playing for their respective travel teams. The tournament is taking place Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. On Friday, two U-18 girls teams (basically high school juniors or seniors) played a match. Af some point after the match, one of the players tested positive for COVID-19. (I don't think they are testing all players that compete, but I could be mistaken.)

As a result, all players on both teams are now quarantined for two weeks. The coaches of the respective teams are also quarantined for two weeks. I know the center ref is also quarantined; I didn't hear if the two assistant refs have been quarantined, but I expect they have been as well. I also did not learn if the parents of the team whose player tested positive have been quarantined, or if the parents of the opposing team have been quarantined.

The rest of the tournament is still running (well, I believe the bracket in which the two aforementioned teams were playing has been canceled, as it was 4 teams, and each would play the other 3 teams 1 time during the tournament; not much of a way to salvage that bracket).

Since the tournament is still taking place, you could say this is an isolated incident that only impacted two teams and 1 - 3 refs. How big an impact won't be known for a week or more.

Or, you could say that this incident is indicative of what's out there, and the risks to players, coaches, officials, and parents from an attitude of "just play, the risks are low" is too great to justify playing.

Frankly, I don't think anybody knows how risky it is or is not to play high school sports in the fall. I don't envy anyone that is in a decision making position with regard to these sports. That said, if it were my grandkids that were on a respective team, I would be pretty damn concerned about their taking part in the sport.
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i wouldn't argue with any of your points. our grandson also plays travel soccer in bucks. they still don't know if they'll play. as for hs, his district is going to open in sept., at this point. i'd think there's bigger chance of getting infected in a classroom of 20+ kids all day than on a soccer field.
 
i wouldn't argue with any of your points. our grandson also plays travel soccer in bucks. they still don't know if they'll play. as for hs, his district is going to open in sept., at this point. i'd think there's bigger chance of getting infected in a classroom of 20+ kids all day than on a soccer field.
 
87 Penn St8 said:
I probably would not work for free. When my kids graduated my bride requested that I stop giving my time to work (which often crossed over as a parent) and spend more time with her. The money is inconsequential, but in terms of my marriage it is not. There is risk being so close to all of the visiting players. I imagine they will keep the box more clear than usual...but still elements of risk. Parents would likely do it for free, but they have an overt conflict too. Even though we teach at KHS, we have become the best chain gang in the county according to the refs. Opposing coaches recognize us, new ones usually watch our spots closely for a quarter or so and lighten up. Tough spot for you. I'd try not to have a parent if you need to go that route. Maybe youth football coaches? Good luck!
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Actually what I'm hearing is that to create "social distancing" on the sidelines they may extend the box to the 10 yard line.
 
lockhavenlion3 said:
agree. have a jr. grandson in the same position. he's a pretty good soccer player and would like to play in college. missing a year of competition will certainly cause him to lose a season experience that will help his growth. we're hoping all can sports can play, but if soccer is seen as low risk, they and any other non risk programs should be allowed to go on.
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My kid missed his whole track and field season last spring where he was the defending District Champion. Now he is missing his college football season. Totally sucks for him. My daughter missed her college softball season save 1 tournament. I hope no kid misses any sport they play or compete in going forward but I know that isn’t realistic. My heart goes out to everyone of them whether football, soccer, tennis, baseball, field hockey or whatever. I know there are greater tragedies in life but it is still hard on these kids and takes away something they can never get back.
 
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There are petitions going up all over the state. The current rule (I won't say law) is that no more than 250 can congregate in one place. Why doesn't that apply wrt to HS Football. If I'm a mother or a father and my kid is playing QB (or any position), and I'm told I can't watch him play - well, we have a problem.
 
MtNittany said:
There are petitions going up all over the state. The current rule (I won't say law) is that no more than 250 can congregate in one place. Why doesn't that apply wrt to HS Football. If I'm a mother or a father and my kid is playing QB (or any position), and I'm told I can't watch him play - well, we have a problem.
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How long before there's AAU football? Next week?

As Tom noted, AAU sports are pretty much up and running in PA. A lot of girls from my area played in a huge BB tourney this weekend in another part of the state with a bunch of D1 commits that traveled hundreds of miles. Why is this ok but high school sports are not? $$$
 
The NFHS has a streaming network and many schools up here are using it. Lot's of parents and grandparents have utilized it. We have schools that have live streamed junior high games.
 
PearlSUJam said:
How long before there's AAU football? Next week?

As Tom noted, AAU sports are pretty much up and running in PA. A lot of girls from my area played in a huge BB tourney this weekend in another part of the state with a bunch of D1 commits that traveled hundreds of miles. Why is this ok but high school sports are not? $$$
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That's basically what all these seven-on-seven leagues are in the summer. And if they don't play fall Sports here in Maryland I already know of a group of football coaches who are setting up 18u tackle football leagues through Rec organizations who can get permits.
 
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Tom McAndrew said:
I don't know the specifics. It's unclear to me if the girl had tested on her own in the days prior to the match, or was actually tested that day either pre- or post-match for whatever reason.

Testing is not cheap. Instant testing is very expensive, and generally is only available in hospitals or other critical locations.

I was at a LAX tournament last weekend (also all high school age), and I know that no players, coaches, or refs were tested as part of the tournament. I really doubt that the soccer players were tested as part of the tournament I referenced in my earlier post. These tournaments are already really expensive for the teams (and thus the parents of the players), and they also operate with a skeleton crew of people running them (outside of the officials, which are independent contractors that agree to officiate the tournament). I know a guy that works for an organization that runs sports tournaments across the country. Based on what he's told me (we never specifically discussed COVID testing and tournaments), they run on a shoestring, with little extra money available for unusual events. In that context, I don't see any way that the tournament could pay for, or provide, the testing.

You can expand that to the high schools (which is the focus of this thread). As far as I know, very, very few of them have the resources to test all their regular students 1 time. I doubt that any of them have the resources to conduct ongoing testing of their athletes. @marshall23 probably can speak to this with more knowledge than I can.
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Thanks for the reply.
 
Suburban One League is one of the bigger leagues in the suburbs of Philadelphia

 
The Inter-Ac league is comprised of many (not all) of the private schools in the Philadelphia suburbs

 
The ridiculous thing is I've been to a bunch of baseball tourneys this year with 12 teams max and lots and lots of fans. You can space out as much as needed, but its nt really being enforced. So to me, saying no fans at football is goofy. There is plenty of room to let some fans in- at least parents.
 
PA high school football will go backwards in quality and performance with a pause because if it cannot happen now it assuredly will not happen in 2021.
 
What the hell do they expect these kids to do? Just shelter in place for the next 5-10 years?
 
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