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Penn State's Joe Paterno has the most wins all-time in D1 college football.

Please. Joe could have stepped down at any point for health reasons. His selfishness and ego prevented him from doing it years before when he should have. You have proven nothing.

I don't care about the BoT or what they did or didn't do. There is a simple fact, that has nothing to do with Sandusky, that Joe stayed on too long. His ego was the priority and not the interest of the program.

I absolutely believe Joe stayed too long, but also that he earned the leeway after all he did for the university to make that call when he chose to. After righting the ship following the '00-'04 struggles, it was hard to push the guy out. PSU went 60-17 over his last 6 full seasons as HC. The program was healthy, stable and impossible to make the argument that would push out guys like Bowden, Spurrier, Holtz and Mac Brown.

My disagreements with Joe in the last decade were numerous ranging from offensive delegation to recruiting strategy in particular, but also know he had a very real fear of what would come after coaching. So he held on. Was it his ego? Perhaps to some extent....but one thing Paterno never was when it came to PSU was selfish. It frustrated the heck out of me but the guy in no way deserved what happened to him in the end.
 
If that is what matters to you then get off the train.

What the hell are you talking about? Did I say what matters to me or not? I was talking of an experience I had. Was I supposed to put down every word of thought that occurred? I was just showing the mindset of what is out there, as we all know.
 
That is true. Because no other big time school is going to let someone coach
until they are 84 years old. PSU should have done Paterno a favor by getting rid of him15 years earlier. He wouldn't have 409 wins but would have his reputation.

I always viewed the loyalty Joe had for PSU and what I believed was the loyalty PSU had for Joe as one of the things that made PSU special.
 
Please. Joe could have stepped down at any point for health reasons. His selfishness and ego prevented him from doing it years before when he should have. You have proven nothing.

I don't care about the BoT or what they did or didn't do. There is a simple fact, that has nothing to do with Sandusky, that Joe stayed on too long. His ego was the priority and not the interest of the program.

You are intellectually challenged to the point that you define opinions as FACT.
Joe was selfish.....fact or opinion?
Joe's ego prevented him from stepping down at any point......fact or opinion?
I have proven nothing.....fact or opinion?....I asked you a series of questions and helped you with your reading comprehension, you responded by refusing to answer and expressing your opinions. This is an OPINION. You are not equipped to defend your positions here, do your mother and father a favor and stop embarrassing them.
 
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He didn't build it. PSU had fine teams and a new stadium before he took over.
He certainly improved the football program but let's not pretend he created it.
I personally think the administration was cowed by Paterno. and his following
so they let him stay far longer than they should have.

So Joe didn't build the stadium? I attended my first PSU game in JVP's inaugural season. I sat on high school type bleachers in the end zone. The seating capacity was around 46,000. During JVP's tenure the capacity was increased about 7 times.
You are technically correct that Joe didn't build it. He was known to be terrible with a hammer, saw and carpentry in general. Blaming the administration for being "cowed" by Joe is hilarious. Seems the trustees had the power to oust JVP all along. Lamenting that Joe stayed too long is an opinion and therefore cannot be reasonably disputed.......using it as an excuse for misanthropes to fire and frame him to protect their malfeasance is a weak and transparent diversion.
 
I absolutely believe Joe stayed too long, but also that he earned the leeway after all he did for the university to make that call when he chose to. After righting the ship following the '00-'04 struggles, it was hard to push the guy out. PSU went 60-17 over his last 6 full seasons as HC. The program was healthy, stable and impossible to make the argument that would push out guys like Bowden, Spurrier, Holtz and Mac Brown.

My disagreements with Joe in the last decade were numerous ranging from offensive delegation to recruiting strategy in particular, but also know he had a very real fear of what would come after coaching. So he held on. Was it his ego? Perhaps to some extent....but one thing Paterno never was when it came to PSU was selfish. It frustrated the heck out of me but the guy in no way deserved what happened to him in the end.

Agree. I also think he was concerned with passing the torch to the right person (not Jay).
 
Even if you choose to berate JVP for "staying too long" at least we know it took more than 50 years of service to PSU for some folks to arrive at that conclusion. On the other hand how long did it take Surma, Frazier, Peetz, Lubert, Suhey, Joyner, Masser and Corbett to get there?
 
It likely will only because everyone gets to play a bowl game these days. There was a time going to a bowl game meant something.

Twice, JVP turned down bowl invitations:
1970, with a 7-3 record, because he felt they should have been invited to a better bowl since they were a pretty good team by the end of the season after a 2-3 start. I think he was invited to perhaps the Bluebonnet Bowl or some such, and wanted to go to the Gator Bowl. Memory is sketchy on those bowl details. I think that is when he was also pissed off that 9-0 Dartmouth won the Lambert Trophy. Joe proposed PSU playing Dartmouth in Yankee Stadium to decide the Lambert winner! No takers.

1984, with a 6-5 record, because he felt they simply did not deserve to go to a bowl.

Twice he gave up revenue and TV exposure. Likely they would have won the 1970 bowl (410!); likely they could have easily lost the 1984 bowl.
 
That is true. Because no other big time school is going to let someone coach
until they are 84 years old. PSU should have done Paterno a favor by getting rid of him15 years earlier. He wouldn't have 409 wins but would have his reputation.
He was bringing in a lot of money, he was winning more than he lost, and he was graduating his players at a very high rate. So why should the school have gotten rid of him? I agree he should have retired, but very few schools in the country would have gotten rid of a coach like that, especially after the 2005, 2008 and 2009 seasons.
 
Twice, JVP turned down bowl invitations:
1970, with a 7-3 record, because he felt they should have been invited to a better bowl since they were a pretty good team by the end of the season after a 2-3 start. I think he was invited to perhaps the Bluebonnet Bowl or some such, and wanted to go to the Gator Bowl. Memory is sketchy on those bowl details. I think that is when he was also pissed off that 9-0 Dartmouth won the Lambert Trophy. Joe proposed PSU playing Dartmouth in Yankee Stadium to decide the Lambert winner! No takers.

1984, with a 6-5 record, because he felt they simply did not deserve to go to a bowl.

Twice he gave up revenue and TV exposure. Likely they would have won the 1970 bowl (410!); likely they could have easily lost the 1984 bowl.


Was 1984 against BYU who Joe didn't want to embarrass Edwards?
 
When people say that Joe intimidated the Admin or controlled things, we can easily point to PSU initiatives such as the baseball stadium to point out that Joe did not always get his way. He was often asked for input (who wouldn't go to him for advice, given his record of success?), or offered input, but his batting average on seeing things done his way was nowhere near where his detractors think it was.

Here's a story I heard very recently that I had not heard before. Maybe some of you have. The source was someone who was intimately involved with PSU athletics.

When the discussions began about building what was to become the BJC, Joe was concerned about the proposed high dollar capital outlay going for something strictly for athletics. I think the proposed budget was maybe $40mm or something - I forget exactly what was said now wrt the initial budget. Anyway, JVP suggested using half the budgeted amount to expand and modernize Rec Hall... raise the roof, expand the usable square footage for teams areas and coaches' offices, etc. He also suggested building a parking deck across Atherton Street, roughly where the White Course practice putting green is, and building a walkway over Atherton to Rec Hall.
A number of Admins laughed at this, and insisted that PSU needed a new arena (and we did, and the original plans for the BJC would have given us an awesome venue). They also laughed off the proposed walkway over Atherton, saying that in no way would the borough ever go for that, it wouldn't fit aesthetically, etc. Of course, years later, the IST walkway looms over Atherton, looking modern and stylish (imo). So, JVP held no sway in that major decision.

Another one that I had not heard....
Joe, as AD, was about to hire Rene Portland as women's bball coach. He needed to pay her somewhat more than her predecessor. But, despite what many think, Joe wanted PSU to be a competitive factor in both men's and women's bball (Dick Harter - a big name in men's hoops - had recently been hired a couple years before) so he wanted / needed to be competitive in salary. So in discussing the coaches' salary budgets with someone in Finance, Joe said that with Rene as HC, PSU women's hoops would thrive and we would even sell out Rec Hall for a couple games. The Finance guy laughed at that notion and told Joe, "If we ever sell out a women's game, I'll kiss your ass at midcourt at halftime of a game." Sure enough, within a few years, a game was sold out (aside: I have no recollection of that myself). Joe remembered what this Finance guy had said a few years prior to that, called him, and said "So... what game should I meet you at midcourt?"

Even when it came to upgrading things in Lasch, Joe put academics first. The reason we were behind the times in some areas was because Joe was ok with sacrificing coaching needs for academic needs. Money designated for football was at tomes put back into the academic support areas for football and other sports, at Joe's request. I think he knew the next guy would not have to make such requests if the academic side was in great shape; the next guy could concentrate on getting the money and support for football-specific and overall athletic initiatives. My opinion.

There are plenty of examples of JVP's input or suggestions not being implemented, and plenty where his ideas were implemented. About right for anyone of his stature on any campus or even in some businesses.
 
Was 1984 against BYU who Joe didn't want to embarrass Edwards?

Perhaps... that does ring a bell. I don't know that PSU would have beaten BYU that season, though. Although, giving JVP a month to prepare for anyone balanced out the odds quite a bit!
 
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When people say that Joe intimidated the Admin or controlled things, we can easily point to PSU initiatives such as the baseball stadium to point out that Joe did not always get his way. He was often asked for input (who wouldn't go to him for advice, given his record of success?), or offered input, but his batting average on seeing things done his way was nowhere near where his detractors think it was.

Here's a story I heard very recently that I had not heard before. Maybe some of you have. The source was someone who was intimately involved with PSU athletics.

When the discussions began about building what was to become the BJC, Joe was concerned about the proposed high dollar capital outlay going for something strictly for athletics. I think the proposed budget was maybe $40mm or something - I forget exactly what was said now wrt the initial budget. Anyway, JVP suggested using half the budgeted amount to expand and modernize Rec Hall... raise the roof, expand the usable square footage for teams areas and coaches' offices, etc. He also suggested building a parking deck across Atherton Street, roughly where the White Course practice putting green is, and building a walkway over Atherton to Rec Hall.
A number of Admins laughed at this, and insisted that PSU needed a new arena (and we did, and the original plans for the BJC would have given us an awesome venue). They also laughed off the proposed walkway over Atherton, saying that in no way would the borough ever go for that, it wouldn't fit aesthetically, etc. Of course, years later, the IST walkway looms over Atherton, looking modern and stylish (imo). So, JVP held no sway in that major decision.

Another one that I had not heard....
Joe, as AD, was about to hire Rene Portland as women's bball coach. He needed to pay her somewhat more than her predecessor. But, despite what many think, Joe wanted PSU to be a competitive factor in both men's and women's bball (Dick Harter - a big name in men's hoops - had recently been hired a couple years before) so he wanted / needed to be competitive in salary. So in discussing the coaches' salary budgets with someone in Finance, Joe said that with Rene as HC, PSU women's hoops would thrive and we would even sell out Rec Hall for a couple games. The Finance guy laughed at that notion and told Joe, "If we ever sell out a women's game, I'll kiss your ass at midcourt at halftime of a game." Sure enough, within a few years, a game was sold out (aside: I have no recollection of that myself). Joe remembered what this Finance guy had said a few years prior to that, called him, and said "So... what game should I meet you at midcourt?"

Even when it came to upgrading things in Lasch, Joe put academics first. The reason we were behind the times in some areas was because Joe was ok with sacrificing coaching needs for academic needs. Money designated for football was at tomes put back into the academic support areas for football and other sports, at Joe's request. I think he knew the next guy would not have to make such requests if the academic side was in great shape; the next guy could concentrate on getting the money and support for football-specific and overall athletic initiatives. My opinion.

There are plenty of examples of JVP's input or suggestions not being implemented, and plenty where his ideas were implemented. About right for anyone of his stature on any campus or even in some businesses.

Joe was a treasure.
 
Perhaps... that does ring a bell. I don't know that PSU would have beaten BYU that season, though. Although, giving JVP a month to prepare for anyone balanced out the odds quite a bit!


Edwards would have been knocked out by Joe.
 
You are intellectually challenged to the point that you define opinions as FACT.
Joe was selfish.....fact or opinion?
Joe's ego prevented him from stepping down at any point......fact or opinion?
I have proven nothing.....fact or opinion?....I asked you a series of questions and helped you with your reading comprehension, you responded by refusing to answer and expressing your opinions. This is an OPINION. You are not equipped to defend your positions here, do your mother and father a favor and stop embarrassing them.

PSU wouldn't be a big time football program without Paterno, fact or opinion? There is no way Paterno was involved in a cover up of the Sandusky scandal, fact or opinion? Paterno let his son run the offense because he was the most qualified to do so, fact or opinion? Paterno earned the right to "coach" until he was 84 years old, fact or opinion. This I an easy game to play.
 
PSU wouldn't be a big time football program without Paterno, fact or opinion? There is no way Paterno was involved in a cover up of the Sandusky scandal, fact or opinion? Paterno let his son run the offense because he was the most qualified to do so, fact or opinion? Paterno earned the right to "coach" until he was 84 years old, fact or opinion. This I an easy game to play.


"Varoom".

Ass.
 
PSU wouldn't be a big time football program without Paterno, fact or opinion? There is no way Paterno was involved in a cover up of the Sandusky scandal, fact or opinion? Paterno let his son run the offense because he was the most qualified to do so, fact or opinion? Paterno earned the right to "coach" until he was 84 years old, fact or opinion. This I an easy game to play.


PSU wouldn't be a big time football program without Paterno, fact or opinion? Impossible to prove but the preponderance of the evidence says that's true.


There is no way Paterno was involved in a cover up of the Sandusky scandal, fact or opinion? There is no evidence to indicate Joe was involved in a coverup. Heck, the conspiracy charges were dropped against C/S/S quite some time ago.


Paterno let his son run the offense because he was the most qualified to do so, fact or opinion? Most likely false so it's neither fact nor opinion.

Paterno earned the right to "coach" until he was 84 years old, fact or opinion. Joe certainly earned the right to coach for a while in spite of his struggles in 2000, 2001, 2003, & 2004. I personally think he should have retired after 2005 even though he averaged 10 wins for the next 4 seasons.

Here's the thing Osprey. Joe hiring Jay and staying too long does not make him a pedophile enabler.
 
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Agree. I also think he was concerned with passing the torch to the right person (not Jay).

You just responded to a post where it was claimed that Paterno had little influence by implying he wanted to
choose his successor. As it turned out, the "right person"s were selected without his input. And "my
opinion" is that he would have loved to have Jay as
the next coach.
 
You just responded to a post where it was claimed that Paterno had little influence by implying he wanted to
choose his successor. As it turned out, the "right person"s were selected without his input. And "my
opinion" is that he would have loved to have Jay as
the next coach.


Penn Live shit smeller.
 
PSU wouldn't be a big time football program without Paterno, fact or opinion? There is no way Paterno was involved in a cover up of the Sandusky scandal, fact or opinion? Paterno let his son run the offense because he was the most qualified to do so, fact or opinion? Paterno earned the right to "coach" until he was 84 years old, fact or opinion. This I an easy game to play.
Fact. Opinion.Opinion. You are right, it is easy. I'll bet even a limited learner like you can eventually get the hang of it. I hope I have enough patience left to bring you along. Now run along and play.
 
You just responded to a post where it was claimed that Paterno had little influence by implying he wanted to
choose his successor. As it turned out, the "right person"s were selected without his input. And "my
opinion" is that he would have loved to have Jay as
the next coach.
Your opinion is that. As such it is worthless.
 
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PSU wouldn't be a big time football program without Paterno, fact or opinion? Impossible to prove but the preponderance of the evidence says that's true.

What evidence? You have nothing with which to compare.

There is no way Paterno was involved in a cover up of the Sandusky scandal, fact or opinion? There is no evidence to indicate Joe was involved in a coverup. Heck, the conspiracy charges were dropped against C/S/S quite some time ago.

Actually there was if he was "coach" in the
Curley e-mail. There wasn't enough evidence
to prosecute but it is hardly a fact.



Paterno let his son run the offense because he was the most qualified to do so, fact or opinion? Most likely false so it's neither fact nor opinion.

It shows Paterno sacrificed his integrity and
PSU"s football success to help his son.


Paterno earned the right to "coach" until he was 84 years old, fact or opinion. Joe certainly earned the right to coach for a while in spite of his struggles in 2000, 2001, 2003, & 2004. I personally think he should have retired after 2005 even though he averaged 10 wins for the next 4 seasons.

Paterno said many times he would retire when
he could no longer do the job. Did he?

Here's the thing Osprey. Joe hiring Jay and staying too long does not make him a pedophile enabler.

And winning 409 games doesn't make him a Saint.
He was human and made mistakes. I don't believe
a cover up was intended. But the scandal was badly handled and Paterno admitted it. Unfortunately for PSU, Paterno and others,
that slimeball Sandusky left a stain that will
take a while to fade.
 
Fact. Opinion.Opinion. You are right, it is easy. I'll bet even a limited learner like you can eventually get the hang of it. I hope I have enough patience left to bring you along. Now run along and play.

Funny coming from someone too stupid to know a fact from an opinion.
 
You just responded to a post where it was claimed that Paterno had little influence by implying he wanted to
choose his successor. As it turned out, the "right person"s were selected without his input. And "my
opinion" is that he would have loved to have Jay as
the next coach.

Unlikely. Joe said that he didn't think Jay should have been the next head coach and Jay himself said that he was never under consideration. I do think that Joe was loyal to his assistant coaches so he would have likely pushed for somebody like Bradley or LJ. I think he would have wanted one of those guys to keep Jay on the staff.
 
He was bringing in a lot of money, he was winning more than he lost, and he was graduating his players at a very high rate. So why should the school have gotten rid of him? I agree he should have retired, but very few schools in the country would have gotten rid of a coach like that, especially after the 2005, 2008 and 2009 seasons.

Most major colleges have gotten rid of coaches for less. Paterno's record against OSU and Michigan after joining the Big Ten was horrible. And they were
often embarrassed by Iowa and Minnesota.
You could count the touchdowns PSU scored
in Columbus on your fingers. PSU's predictable
offense and bend but don't break defense were
relics. Not to mention punting on fourth and two
from the opponents 34 yard line. I love our current
team and the aggressive football it plays. I choose not
to live in the past.
 
Unlikely. Joe said that he didn't think Jay should have been the next head coach and Jay himself said that he was never under consideration. I do think that Joe was loyal to his assistant coaches so he would have likely pushed for somebody like Bradley or LJ. I think he would have wanted one of those guys to keep Jay on the staff.

Ask Fran Ganter about his loyalty.
 
Most major colleges have gotten rid of coaches for less. Paterno's record against OSU and Michigan after joining the Big Ten was horrible. And they were
often embarrassed by Iowa and Minnesota.
You could count the touchdowns PSU scored
in Columbus on your fingers. PSU's predictable
offense and bend but don't break defense were
relics. Not to mention punting on fourth and two
from the opponents 34 yard line. I love our current
team and the aggressive football it plays. I choose not
to live in the past.
Please give me examples of most major colleges getting rid of coaches for less...and I mean coaches that brought in as much as Paterno and had his graduation rates. He was a cash cow for the university and graduated players...I seriously doubt most major colleges would have gotten rid of someone like that. Maybe if he had only been there a handful of years and didn't have the draw that Joe did, then they would have gotten rid of him for only winning 8 or 9 games a year with outstanding years in 05, 08 and 09. But from a purely business sense it made no sense to get rid of Joe unless they would have done it after 04. Once they missed on that opportunity, they would have looked like morons for getting rid of him.
 

....And winning 409 games doesn't make him a Saint.
He was human and made mistakes. I don't believe
a cover up was intended. But the scandal was badly handled and Paterno admitted it. Unfortunately for PSU, Paterno and others,
that slimeball Sandusky left a stain that will
take a while to fade.

The scandal was manufactured by Corbett. MM gave them what they needed to turn this into the PSU scandal so he could protect TSM and destroy Spanier at the same time. There's a reason why Curley and Schultz had their pictures on the stage right next to Sandusky's and just as prominent. Just as there's a reason the presentment was leaked and a reason Noonan called Joe's moral compass into question when he wasn't even a target of the investigation. And just as there's a reason that Louis Freeh was hired to whitewash the university's handling of the whole thing. And just as there's a reason TSM records were shredded. And just as there's a reason the A9 had to sue the BOT to gain access to Freeh's source documents. And just as there's a reason the NCAA fought so hard to keep information uncovered in discovery sealed.

There's a lot going on here. I wonder how long the BOT can cycle through loyalists to hide their secrets? When is the press going to care?
 
Please give me examples of most major colleges getting rid of coaches for less...and I mean coaches that brought in as much as Paterno and had his graduation rates. He was a cash cow for the university and graduated players...I seriously doubt most major colleges would have gotten rid of someone like that. Maybe if he had only been there a handful of years and didn't have the draw that Joe did, then they would have gotten rid of him for only winning 8 or 9 games a year with outstanding years in 05, 08 and 09. But from a purely business sense it made no sense to get rid of Joe unless they would have done it after 04. Once they missed on that opportunity, they would have looked like morons for getting rid of him.

You must not follow college football other than PSU. And as for looking like morons
they could have mentioned that under Paterno the elder, PSU was the only team in college football to have no OC, no DC, no offensive line coach and no idea who was calling the plays.
 
The scandal was manufactured by Corbett. MM gave them what they needed to turn this into the PSU scandal so he could protect TSM and destroy Spanier at the same time. There's a reason why Curley and Schultz had their pictures on the stage right next to Sandusky's and just as prominent. Just as there's a reason the presentment was leaked and a reason Noonan called Joe's moral compass into question when he wasn't even a target of the investigation. And just as there's a reason that Louis Freeh was hired to whitewash the university's handling of the whole thing. And just as there's a reason TSM records were shredded. And just as there's a reason the A9 had to sue the BOT to gain access to Freeh's source documents. And just as there's a reason the NCAA fought so hard to keep information uncovered in discovery sealed.

There's a lot going on here. I wonder how long the BOT can cycle through loyalists to hide their secrets? When is the press going to care?

Idiot.
 
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