Cael was not only an undefeated 4 time champion, his bonus points at nationals were ridiculous.
Penn State’s 10 Best Wrestlers in History
- Thread starter NittanyLion84
- Start date
Cael scored 107.5 total NCAA tournament team points, which including 27.5 bonus points. Then it goes:
2. Stieber 103.5/ 23.5 bonus points
3. Ed Banach 102.5/ 26.5
4. Mark Churella 99.5/ 25
5. David Taylor 99/ 27
6. Pat Smith 98.5/ 17.5
7. Darryl Burley 95/ 21
8. Ed Ruth 94.5/ 21
9. Zain Retherford 93.5 /23.5
10. Kyle Dake 93/ 13
Here is the list of the top 200 by TheOpenMat after the 2018 season: Top 200 Individual Point Scorers at the DI NCAA Wrestling Tournament
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Well ppl r saying Ruth over DT bc 3 titles override any accomplishment a 2xer might have… I was giving gable as an example that title count isn’t the be all end all…. Not to mention I would weigh hodge trophie over individual title as I feel this is harder to attain.
I'm assuming Cael's 27.5 is an NCAA best. DT with 27. Man we are spoiled and I love it!
Yes and yes
. To put Cael and David Taylor's bonus points in perspective, they both more than doubled Dake's bonus points. Had Taylor won his other two finals against Dake and Bubba by decision he would have ended up 1/2 point behind Cael. I went to the Penn State Wrestling Club site and calculated the numbers for Jason, Bo, Cenzo and Mark. For the three years they competed in the NCAA tournament, Cenzo had 62 total points, including 6 bonus and Mark had 60 total points, including 4 bonus. Jason had 98 points, including 20 bonus and Bo had 95.5, including 19.5 bonus. In the top 200 list this places Jason at 6, right behind Taylor and Bo is 8, right behind Pat Smith. Ed Ruth is 10 and Zain is 11. Five of the top 11 for Penn State. Not too shabby!
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Nobody's mentioned Nickal and Nolf combining for 119 pins and both were pinning almost half of their opponents.
This typifies Nickal's reign of terror.
This typifies Nickal's reign of terror.
You seem to be under the impression that people that put Ruth over Taylor are doing so based solely on number of titles. My opinion is based on the fact I watched practically every one of their college matches, including redshirt year. Taylor had the more dynamic offense but Ruth had better defense to go with an excellent offense in his own right. More than one Cornell fan I talked to during that time said Ruth was the only guy that they though could give Dake problems if they were at the same weight.
Sounds to me like you are putting more emphasis on winning percentage, now we are on the same page brother👍
Except DT’s 2 titles were not a function of a shortened career . . . he and Ruth competed the same number of years . . . so Steveson’s abbreviated 3-yr career is not applicable to the debate.
If all else is equal (e.g., number of years competing, level of competition, number of matches, etc.), then a 3x champ should indeed be rated above a 2x champ. So, in a DT vs Ruth debate, the places to look for discussion are where conditions were different between the two guys. Number of years competing is not one of those.
Instead, one could say DT had to beat an eventual 4x champ, and Ruth didn’t. Another could say Ruth may have been 4x champ (or at least 3x champ, 4x finalist) if not for the knee injury during 2011 quarters, while DT stayed healthy during all 4 Nationals in which he competed.
One could say DT won Hodges, and Ruth didn’t. That could be a fair point, but I wouldn’t get behind it. Vote-based awards are always vulnerable to politics, and not all Hodge criteria relate to performance on the mat. Right out of the gate, it was clear who the Golden Boy was going to be during their careers. Maybe that was fair, maybe not. 🤷♂️
And Cael was the 4 time OW at Nationals - mind-boggling.
Bill Koll was awarded a bronze star for his part of the Normandy invasion. Then he went undefeated with 3 ncaa titles. 2 OW awards. Now that is mind boggling.
Forgot about Bo casually pulling up his sock/ fixing his shoe before he decked Hokit. That should bump a guy up the list. Not as cool as Nolf pinching his bloody nose while holding a guy on his back
Why do have the need to post lies? Koll was 25 when he won this 3rd title and Stieber was 24 when he won his 4th title so only 22 when he won his 2nd title.
Amazing that Zain, with a 5th place finish, is ahead of a 4-timer.
I have my top 5 as
1) Nolf
2) Bo
3) Zain
4) DT
5) Ruth
I also have CStar and AB moving in if they both win 4. AB would have 2 losses coming to Venz and Amine. He has now beat Venz like 6 straight times or something and he is 2-1 against Amine who is one of the best losses of anyone on the list. I know other PSU wrestlers have beaten Amine (Hall) but the version that AB wrestled was a much superior version. Hell, Amine went and won the European Championships 3 weeks after losing to AB. He just needs to continue to up his level of dominance and bonus at a higher level. He does this and wins 4 it’s hard to not see him at 1…..or 2 depending on what Carter does. We sure are a lucky fanbase to have been able to watch all of this greatness
1) Nolf
2) Bo
3) Zain
4) DT
5) Ruth
I also have CStar and AB moving in if they both win 4. AB would have 2 losses coming to Venz and Amine. He has now beat Venz like 6 straight times or something and he is 2-1 against Amine who is one of the best losses of anyone on the list. I know other PSU wrestlers have beaten Amine (Hall) but the version that AB wrestled was a much superior version. Hell, Amine went and won the European Championships 3 weeks after losing to AB. He just needs to continue to up his level of dominance and bonus at a higher level. He does this and wins 4 it’s hard to not see him at 1…..or 2 depending on what Carter does. We sure are a lucky fanbase to have been able to watch all of this greatness
Fair enough, but I still would put a multiplier on winning a hodge.. winning it gtd u were a national champ/undefeated/ and among the best, if not, the best wrestler of that year…
As for Gable, he’s already known as the best hwt of all time.. his career will b debated in goat debates vs future 3x/4x hwt champ but only we who witnessed it will know how truly dominant he was.. besides them just looking up and seeing 2x hodge winner.
Yeah maybe, ur right, it always felt DT was the prime shaq to Ruth’s young Kobe, maybe it felt this way bc DT was the chosen “golden boy”.
Put me firmly in the camp that absent a bumb shoulder and covid, Ant the Champ is a 2xer. Then what about Gable?
Gable improved A LOT the year after he lost to Cassar.. probably debatable who wins ant vs first title gable… don’t think ant would beat the last version of gable we saw though
If AB moved up at some point and manhandles Ferrari he will be number one in my book
I'm not so sure about that Given another year in the room he gets better as well and with a PSU game plan I'm putting my money on ant the champ.
I presume we're excluding 141 lb. Beau Bartlett from this list since he's a clear #1? 😉😉😉
From the Cael Era on ability and my personal assessment therein, I would rank them
1. Ed Ruth (somewhat controversial, but I've always been a Ruth Truther...a tRuther if you will)
2. Zain Retherford
3. David Taylor
4. Jason Nolf
5. Bo Nickal
6. Roman Bravo-Young
7. Vincenzo Joseph
8. Nick Lee
9. Carter Starocci
10. Aaron Brooks
11. Quentin Wright
12. Anthony Cassar (he beat Gable!)
13. Mark Hall
14. Nico Megaludis
I'll end the list there because I personally refuse to give any credit to Frank Molinaro or Matt Brown because they hurt my feelings in the 2016 OTT and most every match against Mike Evans respectively.
I'm not well-versed enough in the pre-Cael Era to rank guys like McCoy or Prescott
From the Cael Era on ability and my personal assessment therein, I would rank them
1. Ed Ruth (somewhat controversial, but I've always been a Ruth Truther...a tRuther if you will)
2. Zain Retherford
3. David Taylor
4. Jason Nolf
5. Bo Nickal
6. Roman Bravo-Young
7. Vincenzo Joseph
8. Nick Lee
9. Carter Starocci
10. Aaron Brooks
11. Quentin Wright
12. Anthony Cassar (he beat Gable!)
13. Mark Hall
14. Nico Megaludis
I'll end the list there because I personally refuse to give any credit to Frank Molinaro or Matt Brown because they hurt my feelings in the 2016 OTT and most every match against Mike Evans respectively.
I'm not well-versed enough in the pre-Cael Era to rank guys like McCoy or Prescott
Th
I agree. Cassar was improving through out the year. The best testament to his improvement was going from a narrow loss to White to majoring him in the final-enough to make White pissy at the end of the match. He would have had another year to add bulk and develop and refine new attacks.
That's the thing about Cael's system you have to account for ..guys keep improving. Not like Tomasello and Martin who won the whole enchilada as freshmen and then couldn't repeat. Nickal lost to Martin as a freshman, then got the better of him while they were still 184.
I agree. Cassar was improving through out the year. The best testament to his improvement was going from a narrow loss to White to majoring him in the final-enough to make White pissy at the end of the match. He would have had another year to add bulk and develop and refine new attacks.
That's the thing about Cael's system you have to account for ..guys keep improving. Not like Tomasello and Martin who won the whole enchilada as freshmen and then couldn't repeat. Nickal lost to Martin as a freshman, then got the better of him while they were still 184.
Shout out to Mark Hall who never took a redshirt, went 116-6 with three Big Ten Championships and three trips to the NCAA finals, going 1-2-2-Covid. The two finals losses were to guy that was later suspended for testing positive for cocaine use, which some might say was a performance enhancer for those cutting weight.
Your right and wrong. I really meant to put 4th title, will fix. Koll was 24 when he won his 3rd.
I have trouble taking seriously the notion that habitual cocaine use (which is what it would take if being used as a weight loss PED) is conducive to the lifestyle required to find the level of success Zahid has had in the sport of wrestling.
I think its much much much more likely that Zahid is a great wrestler that failed a drug test.
Remember if there wasn't a Ricky Bonomo, Jimmy may of been a 2 timer. He was a great person to meet too. Very humble.
The best ever is David Taylor. 2x champ, 2x Hodge, World Champ and Olympic Gold. Just at Penn St then it's Zain Retherford. 2x Hodge and 3x Champ.
1 Zain Retherford 3x, 2x
2 Bo Nickal 3x, 1x
3 Ed Ruth 3x
4 Jason Nolf 3x
5 David Taylor 2x, 2x
Best college wrestler
1. Cael 4x undefeated, 2x Hodge
2. Kyle 4x at 4 different weights, 1x Hodge
3. Logan Stiebler 4x, 1x Hodge
4. Pat Smith 4x
5. Dan Gable 3x, 1 loss ever
6 Zain Retherford 3x, 2x
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Your list is a bit top heavy with current people.
Best college wrestler:
Yojiro Uetake was an undefeated 3x NCAA champ and 2x Olympic champ. Of course when he wrestled, freshmen weren't eligible so he couldn't be a 4xer. But he belongs near the top of any list of all-time greats.
Best PSU wrestler:
I kinda like your list of top 5, though I'd nitpick the order of placement. But any list of PSU greats has got to have Andy Matter sneaking in there somewhere. 2x champ back when PSU wasn't winning many titles.
Uetake beat Joe Peritore of Lehigh twice in the finals. My brother was a backup for Lehigh then. My other brother lost by a point to Matter in high school.
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We will see if Spencer can equal Cael's three. I think the case could easily be made that Zain deserved to have won the award three times also.
Ranking David Taylor, Ed Ruth, Zain, Nolf and Nickal is like picking which of your kids is your favorite. Can’t be done.
All tied for number 1 in my opinion.
All tied for number 1 in my opinion.
Well my youngest just got a scholarship to MIT grad school, so she’s the favorite this week!
I don't know who is the best, all I know is who I enjoy watching the most.
From that my list is (Cael era)
Bo Nickal
Jason Nolf
David Taylor
Q Wright
Zain
Ed Ruth
Joseph
Mark Hall
Frank M
I like the guys you make you say "what the hell did I just see?"
PSU James had it correct but to stretch it a bit they are all our children. Aaron, RBY, et al, are ready to bump some of the above.
From that my list is (Cael era)
Bo Nickal
Jason Nolf
David Taylor
Q Wright
Zain
Ed Ruth
Joseph
Mark Hall
Frank M
I like the guys you make you say "what the hell did I just see?"
PSU James had it correct but to stretch it a bit they are all our children. Aaron, RBY, et al, are ready to bump some of the above.
Great comments throughout this thread. I too love to watch those guys that keep you wondering what new controlled explosion they are going to detonate each time they step on the mat. Same for the guys that are just so good that victory is a foregone conclusion and the only suspense is margin (or method) of victory. For me, Nolf epitomized that.
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