He would be near the top.
Yes for now AB is closing in.
Pat Smith won a few titles before a RS.
Penn State’s 10 Best Wrestlers in History
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Yes for now AB is closing in.
Pat Smith won a few titles before a RS.
Goalpost moving. The video clearly said World/Olympic credentials not included.
Regardless, he still list to Coon as a SR.
Also had a significantly lower bonus rate than Zain, Jason, or Bo.
Thats what gets me… Snyder was not even close to as dominant as our fab four 3xers, or DT, yet if Snyder would have beaten Gadsen people would have him in GOAT conversation. Should ONE MATCH really turn the tides in such a way?
But he was a bad call away from being a 4X.
If we take into account wrestling IQ I put Nolf at the top. An uninjured Nolf in his prime beats anyone he's that good and by far the smartest wrestler I ever saw take the mat at PSU. Now Taylor is a close second and both he and Bo lost their freshman finals match and then dominated from there. However, Bo did wrestle a 2x champion in Dean to win a final which has to count for something because Dean was a beast. Having said all this I'm going with Nico who won a title after losing countless times to everyone in the room
I think Carter's offensive production will continue to increase. Look at what he did to Hidlay in the semifinals. Hayden Hidlay had never given up 4 takedowns in a single frontside or regular season match until he wrestled Carter. To me, that was the most impressive match of the NCAA tournament. While it wasn't quite Ed Ruth majoring a dude when asked by Casey in the NCAA finals level stuff, he's getting there.
I think we'll see more and more early termination of guys ranked outside the top 10 from both Carter and AB.
I think we'll see more and more early termination of guys ranked outside the top 10 from both Carter and AB.
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Quality finals win… Bo over Dean or Cenzo over Imar?
Both beat 2xers
Cenzo gets the wow factor and I had Bo picked without hesitation.
Not moving the goalpost at all. If we're talking about a student-athlete and his time at a school, why wouldn't you include those accomplishments if he was a student athlete at the time. That's no different than any other Olympic sport - if you win a world title while at LSU, or an Olympic title while still a student at Oregon, does that somehow not count as an accomplishment while there?
And while he lost to Coon as a SR, he still won NCAAs that year.
Snyder was pretty darn dominant. Bonus rate:
FR - 50%
SO - 72%
JR - 76%
SR - 66%
Anywhere. Including small PA schools. It isn't like PSU was the assumed school for any elite recruit.
At the very top there is going to be only one, maybe two matches that tilt the scales.
If Jason Nolf beat IMAR, if Bo pulls his arm and scores 6 instead of giving 6, if DT beats Bubba their perceived greatness jumps higher.
This is hard but I'm gonna give it a shot:
1. Bo Nickal
2. David Taylor
3. Zain Retherford
4. Ed Ruth
5. Jason Nolf
6. Andy Matter
7. Quentin Wright
8. John Fritz
9. Jim Martin
10.Vincenzo Joseph
1. Bo Nickal
2. David Taylor
3. Zain Retherford
4. Ed Ruth
5. Jason Nolf
6. Andy Matter
7. Quentin Wright
8. John Fritz
9. Jim Martin
10.Vincenzo Joseph
No Kerry McCoy? A Hodge winner, 2x champ and 2x Olympian misses your list? For shame.
I recall someone, I think on Flo, predicting Snyder would pin Johnson and my reaction being Snyder had a total of zero career wins by fall in college at the time. (And he didn’t pin Johnson either.)
Incredible wrestler, obviously, but the lack of falls prob puts him behind a number of our guys IMO.
My top 4 wearing PSU singlet:
Bo - 3x NCAA Champ, 4x finalist, 3x Big10 Champ at 174, 184, 197
Ed - 3x NCAA Champ, 4x Big10 Champ
Zain - 3x NCAA Champ all at 149, 3x Big10 Champ
Jason - 3x NCAA Champ all at 157, 2x Big10 Champ
Bo and Ed won NCAA's and Big10's at different weights.
Bo wins over guys with NCAA's championship in the finals, (2x Dean, Myles, Moore). Pins Myles to secure win Team Title. To me Bo is clearly the best wrestler to wear a PSU singlet. I view Championship’s at Multiple weight classes as my most important category, NCAA’s and Big10’s.
Bo - 3x NCAA Champ, 4x finalist, 3x Big10 Champ at 174, 184, 197
Ed - 3x NCAA Champ, 4x Big10 Champ
Zain - 3x NCAA Champ all at 149, 3x Big10 Champ
Jason - 3x NCAA Champ all at 157, 2x Big10 Champ
Bo and Ed won NCAA's and Big10's at different weights.
Bo wins over guys with NCAA's championship in the finals, (2x Dean, Myles, Moore). Pins Myles to secure win Team Title. To me Bo is clearly the best wrestler to wear a PSU singlet. I view Championship’s at Multiple weight classes as my most important category, NCAA’s and Big10’s.
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Moore was the favorite during the Covid year but he never won a NCAA championship. But point taken, those are high quality wins.
Genuinely curious as to why you put the most value in the multiple weight class thing?
I understand Bo at 197 as it was always a strong belief that he never came close to 197, but never personally put much value on that aspect in general.
What’s your angle?
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My reasoning is……
Take Kyle Dake moving up every year in weight class. In reality he should be competing against guys that are cutting weight and should be considerably stronger than him each time he moves up in weight. I’m not a fan of his but for me he is the second best wrestler of all time behind Cael the GOAT.
In theory his solar callus grew stronger every year, which some speculate could have been a competitive advantage.
Very hard to rank but
1. RUTH 3 wins/3 finals
2. RETHERFORD 3/3
3. NICKEL 3/4
4. NOLF 3/4
5. JOSEPH 2/3
6. WRIGHT 2/3
7. TAYLOR 2/4
8. BROOKS 2/2
9. STAROCCI 2/2
10. NLEE 2/2
HM RBY 2/2, Cassar 1/1, Megaludis 1/3, Brown 1/2, Hall 1/3, Molinaro 1/2, Dean 1/1, MacIntosh 0/1, Valimont 0/1
That’s 32/46 in Cael’s era. I think I got everyone.
I really believe that Hall, Joseph, and Brooks would have won in 2020 but for CoVid.
RBY, Brooks, and Starocci can really climb in the next 3-4 yrs. Hard to believe Taylor is #7.
1. RUTH 3 wins/3 finals
2. RETHERFORD 3/3
3. NICKEL 3/4
4. NOLF 3/4
5. JOSEPH 2/3
6. WRIGHT 2/3
7. TAYLOR 2/4
8. BROOKS 2/2
9. STAROCCI 2/2
10. NLEE 2/2
HM RBY 2/2, Cassar 1/1, Megaludis 1/3, Brown 1/2, Hall 1/3, Molinaro 1/2, Dean 1/1, MacIntosh 0/1, Valimont 0/1
That’s 32/46 in Cael’s era. I think I got everyone.
I really believe that Hall, Joseph, and Brooks would have won in 2020 but for CoVid.
RBY, Brooks, and Starocci can really climb in the next 3-4 yrs. Hard to believe Taylor is #7.
Agree, when looking at college results only, I have Ed Ruth at the top of my PSU list. His RS Sophomore year at 174 was an incredibly dominant season, shame he never won the hodge.
When looking at past wrestlers we can only compare titles and stats if we weren’t there to witness ourselves.. a 4xer is always viewed as better then 3xer. And 3xer better then 2xer.. etc.. Ruth is a 3xer compared to DT being 2xer but for those watching them both actively wrestle at the time it always felt like DT 1a and Ruth 1b.. hence DT got the hodge.. but yeah if looking at just base titles Ruth is tops.
Taylor had the whole Magic Man mystique versus the "Easy Ed" moniker. You had the smoothness of Ruth versus the whirling dervish that was Taylor. In the eye test it always looked like Taylor was doing more when the fact is they both dominated. They both lost 3 college matches, Taylor had 7 more pins (less than 2 per year). Where Taylor really surpassed Ruth was in TF's. It ended as 1 and 2 in bonus point wins (125-104) or 5 per year. So I would agree that the comparison is razor thin but 3 is always greater than 2.
I don’t think every 3xer is automatically better then a 2xer..best example of this is Gable Stevenson.. maybe a wrestler had a injury year or retired early..etc.
Yes Ruth has more based titles vs DT but DT wins in almost every other category(finals, hodge,bonus rate, tourney pts scored). And for people witnessing them both wrestle at the time it was pretty unanimous DT was 1a and Ruth was 1b..(hence many feel Ruth deserves more credit and rightfully so). there should also be more weight to winning a hodge too as this is much harder to win then a ncaa Title..
And how bout the few 3xers who didnt even have an oppurtunity to try as a freshman. This is more futile than DeSanto trying to get RBY’s arm.
Is 3 always greater then 2 though?? There has been a handful of 3x hwt ncaa champ. Would you say they are all better then 2x hwt champ Gable Stevenson?? Will wrestling fans 50 years from now know how great Gable was or will they just compare 2 titles to 3/4..
Is Gable Steveson a good example to keep pointing to? Is there any other person whose career/circumstance is comparable? I don’t see how he applies to a DT vs. Ruth debate. We all know the variables that play into how DT and Ruth were/are perceived, and none of them have anything to do with Steveson.
Cael's victory total 159-0 to Dake's record of 137-4
Both have 4 titles and Cael won at 184 and 197
Take Gabe Dean for instance that wrestled all 4 years at 184lbs - one strong guy that finished 3rd, 1st, 1st, and reached the finals again in 2017 to face Bo Nickal hoping to become a 3x Champ.
Bo moved up from 174lbs where he had reached the finals and lost to Myles Martin the year before. Bo spends the year growing into 184 where as Dean spent his college career probably walking around at 190+ pounds and cutting to 184.
Bo wins 4-3 and wins the first of three NCCA championships. The second one he pins Myles Martin to clinch the Team Championship, and the third is at 197 vs. Kolin Moore.
Bo also won three Big10's at 174, 184, 197.
