OT: York golf club owner calls cops on black female members for playing too slow

[GTACSA]

People can have you removed from their private property for any reason, as long as it's a legal reason.
In the case of Rittenhouse starbucks, my understanding is their big problem was the cultural problem of Starbucks' long-time policy of allowing people to freely use the restrooms, sit in their restaurants all day, oftentimes without even requiring any purchase. That may work in a giant low-rent area, but not Rittenhouse, NYC, etc.. So their culture and policies are changing, but they've done an inadequate job of providing notice of the change. So in that case it was a conflict of rights (remove trespassers) v possible reasonable expectations of license based on a course of dealing. Hence, why are you singling me out for removal?

In this case, these were members. Hard for a member to trespass when it's just a minor disagreement with management. They had a conditional license that required them to follow the rules. They broke rules but sound to have had some level of permission from the pro. They were approached (badly)....

With regard to Rittenhouse; when the story first broke the Police Chief was quoted as saying that he was aware of the policy of limiting use of the rest rooms to paying customers, and that a uniformed police officer had previously been denied access to the rest rooms.

That story seems to have disappeared; perhaps the CP misspoke.

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

I was! Dude had a ticket and a seat (and was a doctor)

That must have been SO tough to see. Your blood must have been boiling....

 

[GreggK]

Whether right or wrong, it is not a patrons place to open The People's Court in a private location. Or Judge Judy.
Once someone says, if you do not leave this private property I will call the police, you leave.
I don't know the specifics of this particular case, but they can follow-up after the event with whatever attorney ambulance chaser they want.
There seems to be a problem today with patrons not understanding private vs. public property. And, in either case, if the police ask you to leave or face arrest those are your options. Period.
LdN

You tell them! Tell Rosa Parks to get to the back of the bus.
Tell those kids in Alabama to use their own lunch counter.

Who do they think they are, Judge Judy?

That is the problem with people like Rosa Parks, she doesn't understand private vs. public property.
And in either case, if the police ask you to leave or face arrest, those are your options.
Period

 

[ram2020]

You tell them! Tell Rosa Parks to get to the back of the bus.
Tell those kids in Alabama to use their own lunch counter.

Who do they think they are, Judge Judy?

That is the problem with people like Rosa Parks, she doesn't understand private vs. public property.
And in either case, if the police ask you to leave or face arrest, those are your options.
Period

I did'nt really want to insert myself here, but you do realize there is a difference between then and now? For instance "Get to the back of the bus because you are black," is materially different than "We don't allow any non-paying customers to use our facilities." Or "No African Americans will be served here" as a pose to "Members need to keep up pace of play or will be asked to leave the golf course." There are rules in private establishments and public establishments and that does not mean they are inherently racist....especially when they are rules for "all."

 

[TenerHallTerror]

I did'nt really want to insert myself here, but you do realize there is a difference between then and now? For instance "Get to the back of the bus because you are black," is materially different than "We don't allow any non-paying customers to use our facilities." Or "No African Americans will be served here" as a pose to "Members need to keep up pace of play or will be asked to leave the golf course." There are rules in private establishments and public establishments and that does not mean they are inherently racist....especially when they are rules for "all."

yeah when the rules are applied fairly to "all", you have a point . . .

 

[ram2020]

yeah when the rules are applied fairly to "all", you have a point . . .

I agree. Is there proof that these rules have not been applied fairly at the golf course? Have they ever asked a white group of golfers to speed up play or leave the course?

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

With regard to Rittenhouse; when the story first broke the Police Chief was quoted as saying that he was aware of the policy of limiting use of the rest rooms to paying customers, and that a uniformed police officer had previously been denied access to the rest rooms.

That story seems to have disappeared; perhaps the CP misspoke.

Many were aware of the policy. That Starbucks was robbed a short while (within a few weeks) before by someone who entered the bathroom. Unconfirmed but story I heard was he was another who wasn't actually a customer. So good bet CP may have heard of the policy. BUt since you brought up the CP,...

The two interesting questions for me are
1. whether the starbucks' "trespassers" had notice of the "purchase required" policy, before being asked to make a purchase or leave - I understand "for customer use only" was posted on restroom but not on front door. If they knew, clearly trespassing. IF not, still trespassing but their claim suspicion of racism sounds more reasonable.
2. more interestingly, how the initial starbucks' call of "two gentlemen asked to make a purchase or leave" turned into a dispatch re: a group of males and disturbance and a request for backup. I listened to the dispatch log and must have missed how it escalated. Whether pissed off for good reason or just being jerks, the guys sound like they were dealt with much more politely by the management than they were by the police.

In the golfers' case, management over-reacted and deserves to get slapped. The cops just don't sound like they needed to be called. The round was done and any rulebreaking was over.
In the starbucks' case, sounds like the police seem to have over-reacted and the starbucks' folks got slapped.

 

[dailybuck777]

I copied this summary from one of the players' web page. If what she says is true, and on the surface, I see no reason to doubt it, it appears being asked to leave was racist.

"We took a break, they left, and us remaining 2 went to resume play at Hole 10. The group behind us just arrived, so we waved them on to play before us. However, they told us to go, because their group members wanted a beer break. (In the video you can see them later returning with their drinks and food. It is not about them. They lodged no complaints. The guy in hat confirmed we maintained the pace of play even with 5.)

As the 2 of us went to tee off while the other group took their break, Steve Chronister approached us then for the third time, but with 3-4 other men, one of whom was later identified as Jordan Chronister. They now accused us of taking too long of a break and said they wanted us off their premises. As paid members who were not holding up play, we did question why.

They said the police were already called, so we waited.
The police arrived. The Chronisters repeated that they wanted us off their premises and wanted to refund our memberships, including the 3 who left. (The police were respectful, so it is not about the police, if we don't receive charges.)

As we waited and as we spoke to police, no other group approached Hole 10 to tee off, so for about 20-30 minutes there was no one behind the group who were behind us. We waited in the parking lot level, not on the playing grounds."

If it is proven that there was no one close behind them, then they have a very good case. Also, giving credence to their explanation is the fact that they were experienced golfers and knew the rules of golf. Additionally, they said they waived a group through.

Obliviax, you are right that many golf courses don't allow 5-somes. However, my father was a teaching golf pro, and I worked at golf courses for 15 years, beginning at age 8 as a caddy, and a fair number of golf courses do allow 5-somes in selected circumstances. (The course is not busy, the players all have individual carts and play fast et cet.) At this time of year, the course was not busy apparently [no one behind them], and I can easily see a 5-some being permitted. I expect that you play on comparatively nice and expensive public courses, and they are the ones that tend to strictly enforce rules even if the rule doesn't accomplish much on any particular day. I often play a small, not great 9-hole course because at certaIn times , it is close to empty. I have seen 6-somes on this course with all of the people having their own individual golf cart.

 

[Obliviax]

I copied this summary from one of the players' web page. If what she says is true, and on the surface, I see no reason to doubt it, it appears being asked to leave was racist.

"We took a break, they left, and us remaining 2 went to resume play at Hole 10. The group behind us just arrived, so we waved them on to play before us. However, they told us to go, because their group members wanted a beer break. (In the video you can see them later returning with their drinks and food. It is not about them. They lodged no complaints. The guy in hat confirmed we maintained the pace of play even with 5.)

As the 2 of us went to tee off while the other group took their break, Steve Chronister approached us then for the third time, but with 3-4 other men, one of whom was later identified as Jordan Chronister. They now accused us of taking too long of a break and said they wanted us off their premises. As paid members who were not holding up play, we did question why.

They said the police were already called, so we waited.
The police arrived. The Chronisters repeated that they wanted us off their premises and wanted to refund our memberships, including the 3 who left. (The police were respectful, so it is not about the police, if we don't receive charges.)

As we waited and as we spoke to police, no other group approached Hole 10 to tee off, so for about 20-30 minutes there was no one behind the group who were behind us. We waited in the parking lot level, not on the playing grounds."

If it is proven that there was no one close behind them, then they have a very good case. Also, giving credence to their explanation is the fact that they were experienced golfers and knew the rules of golf. Additionally, they said they waived a group through.

Obliviax, you are right that many golf courses don't allow 5-somes. However, my father was a teaching golf pro, and I worked at golf courses for 15 years, beginning at age 8 as a caddy, and a fair number of golf courses do allow 5-somes in selected circumstances. (The course is not busy, the players all have individual carts and play fast et cet.) At this time of year, the course was not busy apparently [no one behind them], and I can easily see a 5-some being permitted. I expect that you play on comparatively nice and expensive public courses, and they are the ones that tend to strictly enforce rules even if the rule doesn't accomplish much on any particular day. I often play a small, not great 9-hole course because at certaIn times , it is close to empty. I have seen 6-somes on this course with all of the people having their own individual golf cart.

Fair enough. I would say, as I said earlier, if the starter gave them permission, great. I also have to assume that some level of racism or sexism was in play. Why do they have memberships for black women if they are going to discriminate? Doesn't make sense. I also say that this is her story, we don't know his.

Overall, sounds like a totally mismanaged golf course. And, for the record, if I owned a golf course, my policy would be NO fivesomes or more..period and end of sentence.

 

[demlion]

yeah when the rules are applied fairly to "all", you have a point . . .

These posters forget that places of public accommodation are a different kind of private property than your house is.

That said, the problems of Starbucks and the Golf Course are similar in that they are unlikely to be resolved by the police without lasting damage to the prospects of the business. Now I am a bad guy to ask, because neither private golf courses nor Starbucks are any place I go very often, but I am even less likely to go now.

How many times has that golf course called the cops on slow players? Surely you can see that slow golfers are a common problem, right? But only the black ones get the cops called on them? Lol. If there is a rule against 5-somes, is it really true that these 5 black ladies were the first to ever violate the rule?

Anyone who cannot see (Starbucks CEO, and the female owner can see) that this is a disastrous move for their business, legal be damned, is blinded by something. I cannot imagine what that is.

 

[dailybuck777]

Why do they have memberships for black women if they are going to discriminate? Doesn't make sense.

It could be that someone was an SOB acting beyond his authority. I did see that someone from the golf course apologized.

 

[MtNittany]

Why do they have memberships for black women if they are going to discriminate? Doesn't make sense. I also say that this is her story, we don't know his.

Everything I know about this place says it's a public golf facility w/ no memberships - only daily fee play. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Their own website says they're the oldest public golf course in the county. I keep reading "membership fees" and wonder what they are talking about. I assume they mean their greens/cart fees.

 

[BBrown]

These posters forget that places of public accommodation are a different kind of private property than your house is.

That said, the problems of Starbucks and the Golf Course are similar in that they are unlikely to be resolved by the police without lasting damage to the prospects of the business. Now I am a bad guy to ask, because neither private golf courses nor Starbucks are any place I go very often, but I am even less likely to go now.

How many times has that golf course called the cops on slow players? Surely you can see that slow golfers are a common problem, right? But only the black ones get the cops called on them? Lol. If there is a rule against 5-somes, is it really true that these 5 black ladies were the first to ever violate the rule?

Anyone who cannot see (Starbucks CEO, and the female owner can see) that this is a disastrous move for their business, legal be damned, is blinded by something. I cannot imagine what that is.

Good points.
In the case of Starbucks I still believe that it was the manager that was the problem not the Starbucks Franchise. But I give the CEO credit for
stepping up.

 

[dailybuck777]

I keep reading "membership fees" and wonder what they are talking about. I assume they mean their greens/cart fees.

It is probably open to the public to play on an individual fee basis. Also, they probably have a membership program where if you pay up front (say $1,000), you can play for the whole year with no individual daily fees.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

Fair enough. I would say, as I said earlier, if the starter gave them permission, great. I also have to assume that some level of racism or sexism was in play. Why do they have memberships for black women if they are going to discriminate? Doesn't make sense. I also say that this is her story, we don't know his.

Overall, sounds like a totally mismanaged golf course. And, for the record, if I owned a golf course, my policy would be NO fivesomes or more..period and end of sentence.

I just want to shout out to the one guy in the Nike sweatshirt and ball cap sipping a coke:

#1 - great product placement, bro!

#2 - "I don't want none of this" gesture. smart guy.

 

[MtNittany]

It is probably open to the public to play on an individual fee basis. Also, they probably have a membership program where if you pay up front (say $1,000), you can play for the whole year with no individual daily fees.

Well, that would make it a semi-private club, not a public course (which their own website claims it is). There are no indications anywhere that they sell memberships.

 

[dailybuck777]

Well, that would make it a semi-private club, not a public course (which their own website claims it is). There are no indications anywhere that they sell memberships.

The golf course I have played is exactly that way and doesn't advertise itself as a semi-private club. Most people just want to know whether they can get on with a daily fee, and if so they will visit. Once there if they are interested, they may pay the yearly membership fee. No one is disputing the players' statements that they are members.

 

[demlion]

Sounds like these women were just a little too uppity for the white swells who (think they) run the place. And, of course, uppity black ladies is exactly why we have police.

 

[Obliviax]

These posters forget that places of public accommodation are a different kind of private property than your house is.

That said, the problems of Starbucks and the Golf Course are similar in that they are unlikely to be resolved by the police without lasting damage to the prospects of the business. Now I am a bad guy to ask, because neither private golf courses nor Starbucks are any place I go very often, but I am even less likely to go now.

How many times has that golf course called the cops on slow players? Surely you can see that slow golfers are a common problem, right? But only the black ones get the cops called on them? Lol. If there is a rule against 5-somes, is it really true that these 5 black ladies were the first to ever violate the rule?

Anyone who cannot see (Starbucks CEO, and the female owner can see) that this is a disastrous move for their business, legal be damned, is blinded by something. I cannot imagine what that is.

Good points. Also have to ask how many people have been called out for slow play responded with "oh, I am sorry, I didn't notice...we'll pick up the pace" and then do. And, we don't know if they are the only black people that were ever asked to speed up, offered a refund, and/or asked to leave.

Personally, I was refused the use of the bathroom at a starbucks in downtown San Fran within the last year (policy was you had to buy coffee). As I understand it, use of the facility at starbucks, is under the control of the manager and how busy they are.

to me, as a white guy who has had situations where people often over react (had a black guy at a church function take offense to me calling him "brother" when all the guys at the church function refer to each-other as a "brother in Christ" and have had several women be offended that I open a door or let them walk through first.) IMHO, it is just as possible they were singled out due to their race as they were asked to hurry up and get crazy because, being minority, they assumed it was because they were black?

 

[MtNittany]

No one is disputing the players' statements that they are members.

The term "membership fees" seems out of place here. Membership dues - sure. Greens fees or cart fees - sure.

 

[AWS1022]

credibility with white racists? I'll pass

If you’re calling me a racist, then that’s actually pretty hilarious. I’ve been called a lot of things in my life, but a racist isn’t one of them. I’m also not a sexist...my mom was very active in the women’s rights movement in the 70’s and I was brought up believing strongly in women’s rights...but I think the term man-splaining is stupid. I think terms like that and white privilege are based in the assumption that all white people are racists and all males are sexist. You can’t use a term that starts with a conclusion. You’ve pretty much proven my point in your posts in this thread whereas everyone who disagrees with you is a racist...that’s the very core of people who use dumb ass terms like white privilege.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

If you’re calling me a racist, then that’s actually pretty hilarious. I’ve been called a lot of things in my life, but a racist isn’t one of them. I’m also not a sexist...my mom was very active in the women’s rights movement in the 70’s and I was brought up believing strongly in women’s rights...but I think the term man-splaining is stupid. I think terms like that and white privilege are based in the assumption that all white people are racists and all males are sexist. You can’t use a term that starts with a conclusion. You’ve pretty much proven my point in your posts in this thread whereas everyone who disagrees with you is a racist...that’s the very core of people who use dumb ass terms like white privilege.

Mt Nittany liked your post

QED

 

[MtNittany]

Mt Nittany liked your post

QED

I liked the part where he said you believe that everyone that disagrees w/ you is a racist. Because it's true.

 

[AWS1022]

Mt Nittany liked your post

QED

And? Oh wait, that’s right, he disagrees with you so he must be a racist.

 

[GreggK]

Personally, I was refused the use of the bathroom at a starbucks in downtown San Fran within the last year (policy was you had to buy coffee). As I understand it, use of the facility at starbucks, is under the control of the manager and how busy they are.
to me, as a white guy who has had situations where people often over react (had a black guy at a church function take offense to me calling him "brother" when all the guys at the church function refer to each-other as a "brother in Christ" and have had several women be offended that I open a door or let them walk through first.) IMHO, it is just as possible they were singled out due to their race as they were asked to hurry up and get crazy because, being minority, they assumed it was because they were black?

I get your point Obli, but the flip side is that pretty much every black person I know has been at one point or another been discriminated against many times.
One of my best friends is a black man, who when we go out, regularly gets treated differently than me. He always just throws up his hands when my drink comes and they seem to forget his. It happens ALL the time. (he is also a very conservative doctor, you would like him haha)

Point is, he is gets pretty pissed when this happens, he never makes a big deal, but I can see it bothers him.

So imagine after this crap happening again and again, you eventually hit a wall and blow up.

This is most definitely not the first time this has happened to these 5 women. When the other 3 left, the left because they were fed up that it happened one more time.
The other two stayed to make a point and STILL had the cops called on them.

Yeah sure, you were once asked to leave a Starbucks. Keep on keeping on.

 

[phillybillyreprise]

I repeat, how often are the police called to golf courses because of slow play? Has this ever happened to any one else ? Either to themselves or to someone else?

 

[Obliviax]

I get your point Obli, but the flip side is that pretty much every black person I know has been at one point or another been discriminated against many times.
One of my best friends is a black man, who when we go out, regularly gets treated differently than me. He always just throws up his hands when my drink comes and they seem to forget his. It happens ALL the time. (he is also a very conservative doctor, you would like him haha)

Point is, he is gets pretty pissed when this happens, he never makes a big deal, but I can see it bothers him.

So imagine after this crap happening again and again, you eventually hit a wall and blow up.

This is most definitely not the first time this has happened to these 5 women. When the other 3 left, the left because they were fed up that it happened one more time.
The other two stayed to make a point and STILL had the cops called on them.

Yeah sure, you were once asked to leave a Starbucks. Keep on keeping on.

yeah...totally understand. And I don't fault minorities for their sensitivity. on the other hand, i know a lot of white people who get wrongfully accused.

 

[MtNittany]

I repeat, how often are the police called to golf courses because of slow play? Has this ever happened to any one else ? Either to themselves or to someone else?

I think the police were called because they wouldn't leave the premises after they were asked to.

 

[LionDeNittany]

You tell them! Tell Rosa Parks to get to the back of the bus.
Tell those kids in Alabama to use their own lunch counter.

Who do they think they are, Judge Judy?

That is the problem with people like Rosa Parks, she doesn't understand private vs. public property.
And in either case, if the police ask you to leave or face arrest, those are your options.
Period

Did you forget some meds today?

You seem to have left reality behind to form a completely unsubstantiated and irrelevant comment.

LdN

 

[LionDeNittany]

yeah...totally understand. And I don't fault minorities for their sensitivity. on the other hand, i know a lot of white people who get wrongfully accused.

"you eventually hit a wall and blow up."

So it's OK to blow up? So you support terrorism. Glad I know now.

LdN

 

[GreggK]

yeah...totally understand. And I don't fault minorities for their sensitivity. on the other hand, i know a lot of white people who get wrongfully accused.

I have too. I have been called many terrible things. I have had a gun pulled on me twice for being white. Once in Asbury Park in the 90s and another in midtown at 3am.
I live in a building that was once mainly middle class black and is slowly becoming upper class white. There is a woman on the first floor who won't even acknowledge me when I say hi. I go out of my way to say hi every time I see her, mainly to annoy her (I like to do that as you know) (also, 99% of the people in the building couldn't be nicer)

But my experiences are nothing compared to many Black Americans day to day. I can count on two hands the times I have been discriminated against.
The same goes for most white people in this country, if not less depending on where you live.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

And? Oh wait, that’s right, he disagrees with you so he must be a racist.

well you are right on both accounts there

 

[GreggK]

"you eventually hit a wall and blow up."
So it's OK to blow up? So you support terrorism. Glad I know now.
LdN

Did you forget some meds today?

GK

 

[LionDeNittany]

Did you forget some meds today?

GK

Nah, I'm just worried that you support terrorism. You think it's OK for people to blow things up because they weren't respected a few times.

LdN

 

[GreggK]

Nah, I'm just worried that you support terrorism. You think it's OK for people to blow things up because they weren't respected a few times.
LdN

I'll take that as a yes.

 

[AWS1022]

well you are right on both accounts there

Must be tough going through life with such a narrow mind.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

Must be tough going through life with such a narrow mind.

maybe some day you will write a book about it, and I will read it, and go AWWWWWWW

 

[fizzyskittles]

Must be tough going through life with such a narrow mind.

But a mind that is capable of reading the minds of others.

 

[bdgan]

Good points. Also have to ask how many people have been called out for slow play responded with "oh, I am sorry, I didn't notice...we'll pick up the pace" and then do. And, we don't know if they are the only black people that were ever asked to speed up, offered a refund, and/or asked to leave.

Personally, I was refused the use of the bathroom at a starbucks in downtown San Fran within the last year (policy was you had to buy coffee). As I understand it, use of the facility at starbucks, is under the control of the manager and how busy they are.

to me, as a white guy who has had situations where people often over react (had a black guy at a church function take offense to me calling him "brother" when all the guys at the church function refer to each-other as a "brother in Christ" and have had several women be offended that I open a door or let them walk through first.) IMHO, it is just as possible they were singled out due to their race as they were asked to hurry up and get crazy because, being minority, they assumed it was because they were black?

Whatever you do don't call a woman ma'am.

 

[AWS1022]

maybe some day you will write a book about it, and I will read it, and go AWWWWWWW

But you wouldn’t read it because you’re mind is made up and you don’t want to be bothered with alternate opinions or reason of any sort.