OT: Steven Avery/Sandusky Scandal revisited . . . why all the corruption??

[simons96]

I decided to re watch Making a Murderer after listening to Ziegler's interview this afternoon.

One thing I keep coming back to is . . . how do corrupt people get away with being so corrupt? Especially in law enforcement.

I'm not sure I have ever experienced people so pathological as the people I see working in law enforcement/courtrooms in these 2 cases. Not saying our entire criminal justice system is corrupt, lots of good cops and prosecutors and judges out there, but . . . .

It seem like the depth of corruption in PA and Wisconisn runs deep. I was moved to tears watching what the detectives, the defense attorney's investigator, and even the judge did to Brenden Massey . . . how do these people stoop to such evil that they would go after a 16 yr old kid of limited intelligence who CLEARLY knows nothing about any crime committed by Steven Avery, if one was even committed. AND HE IS STILL IN PRISON!! How screwed up is our justice system? How can cops pull a kid from school and interview him for 4 hours without a parent or lawyer present? Then make sure he never sees another free day in his life after pumping him full of a confession?? Sadly, it happens A LOT, I don't understand how any decent member of law enforcement could sleep at night trampling the rights and lives of kids like that.

I also don't get how you become such a giant POS like Fina, Masser, Eckel, Peetz, Surma, Erickson, et al that you could callously ruin the lives and reputations of good men, based on obvious falsehoods, without a second thought.

Jeez, sorry just venting. these injustices drive me crazy. these people are scum that do this.

 

[simons96]

btw, curious to hear who people think DID kill Teresa Halbach. Shoulda put up a poll or something.

 

[5b99MNCs]

The system is screwed. No doubt. I don't really feel like elaborating but I am just as perplexed as you are.

 

[simons96]

The system is screwed. No doubt. I don't really feel like elaborating but I am just as perplexed as you are.

do you think the system makes otherwise decent people do horrible things (Milgram Experiment), or do you think the system attracts people who are capable of that cognitive dissonance where they claim to be defenders of truth and justice, but are just unrepentant liars bent on making cases?

 

[rudedude]

do you think the system makes otherwise decent people do horrible things (Milgram Experiment), or do you think the system attracts people who are capable of that cognitive dissonance where they claim to be defenders of truth and justice, but are just unrepentant liars bent on making cases?

Personality testing should be used for any job, in my opinion. It can help get the right kind of traits suited to the job, and, they are fairly accurate and have built in mechanisms that can detect faking. I know some states will use the MMPI at state police academies.

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

I decided to re watch Making a Murderer after listening to Ziegler's interview this afternoon.

One thing I keep coming back to is . . . how do corrupt people get away with being so corrupt? Especially in law enforcement.

I'm not sure I have ever experienced people so pathological as the people I see working in law enforcement/courtrooms in these 2 cases. Not saying our entire criminal justice system is corrupt, lots of good cops and prosecutors and judges out there, but . . . .

It seem like the depth of corruption in PA and Wisconisn runs deep. I was moved to tears watching what the detectives, the defense attorney's investigator, and even the judge did to Brenden Massey . . . how do these people stoop to such evil that they would go after a 16 yr old kid of limited intelligence who CLEARLY knows nothing about any crime committed by Steven Avery, if one was even committed. AND HE IS STILL IN PRISON!! How screwed up is our justice system? How can cops pull a kid from school and interview him for 4 hours without a parent or lawyer present? Then make sure he never sees another free day in his life after pumping him full of a confession?? Sadly, it happens A LOT, I don't understand how any decent member of law enforcement could sleep at night trampling the rights and lives of kids like that.

I also don't get how you become such a giant POS like that you could callously ruin the lives and reputations of good men, based on obvious falsehoods, without a second thought.

Jeez, sorry just venting. these injustices drive me crazy. these people are scum that do this.

In many cases, otherwise decent folks who are absolutely convinced that somebody is guilty of a horrible crime will do whatever it takes to put their suspect away. (Works the same in reverse when otherwise decent folks are absolutely convinced that somebody is innocent.)

Heck, how many folks flippantly say that they would "kill" somebody if given a chance? But, the average guy doesn't have the power to get away with something like that. (Or, really, the desire in most cases.)

Nothing in this post should be construed as me stating that Fina, Masser, Eckel, Peetz, Surma, Erickson, et al are "otherwise decent folks." They simply had the power to proceed.

As for Avery, all my spidey senses have him marked down as guilty, guilty, guilty. He is, without a doubt in my mind, a menace to society. But, admittedly, I have not been influenced by viewing a sympathetic portrayal of his case.

 

[Marshall30]

I decided to re watch Making a Murderer after listening to Ziegler's interview this afternoon.

One thing I keep coming back to is . . . how do corrupt people get away with being so corrupt? Especially in law enforcement.

I'm not sure I have ever experienced people so pathological as the people I see working in law enforcement/courtrooms in these 2 cases. Not saying our entire criminal justice system is corrupt, lots of good cops and prosecutors and judges out there, but . . . .

It seem like the depth of corruption in PA and Wisconisn runs deep. I was moved to tears watching what the detectives, the defense attorney's investigator, and even the judge did to Brenden Massey . . . how do these people stoop to such evil that they would go after a 16 yr old kid of limited intelligence who CLEARLY knows nothing about any crime committed by Steven Avery, if one was even committed. AND HE IS STILL IN PRISON!! How screwed up is our justice system? How can cops pull a kid from school and interview him for 4 hours without a parent or lawyer present? Then make sure he never sees another free day in his life after pumping him full of a confession?? Sadly, it happens A LOT, I don't understand how any decent member of law enforcement could sleep at night trampling the rights and lives of kids like that.

I also don't get how you become such a giant POS like Fina, Masser, Eckel, Peetz, Surma, Erickson, et al that you could callously ruin the lives and reputations of good men, based on obvious falsehoods, without a second thought.

Jeez, sorry just venting. these injustices drive me crazy. these people are scum that do this.

Ever watch the "Life of Emil Zola" or "Dreyfus"?

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

I think it is easy to see where judgers can cross the line of reason. You are talking about closed insular groups that reinforce each other's myopic position. It is a group form of madness.

A correlative study between personality testing of a group and observed group acts can be very revealing. I think it wise to disqualify certain people for jobs based on personality testing especially when an aspect of their jobs is oversight of incaserated or confined people.

 

[bkmtnittany1]

I also don't get how you become such a giant POS like Fina, Masser, Eckel, Peetz, Surma, Erickson, et al that you could callously ruin the lives and reputations of good men, based on obvious falsehoods, without a second thought.

Simple: $$$$$ and power....it's been happening since man was put on the face of the earth...

 

[AWS1022]

btw, curious to hear who people think DID kill Teresa Halbach. Shoulda put up a poll or something.

Could have been the ex-boyfriend or the roommate, but of course no one knows because the police didn't even ask them a single question. I'm not saying Avery didn't do it, but there at least should have been some shred of an investigation done. They never looked beyond one guy and they twisted all the evidence to fit that one guy, so we will probably never know for sure.

 

[fairgambit]

I decided to re watch Making a Murderer after listening to Ziegler's interview this afternoon.

One thing I keep coming back to is . . . how do corrupt people get away with being so corrupt? Especially in law enforcement.

I'm not sure I have ever experienced people so pathological as the people I see working in law enforcement/courtrooms in these 2 cases. Not saying our entire criminal justice system is corrupt, lots of good cops and prosecutors and judges out there, but . . . .

It seem like the depth of corruption in PA and Wisconisn runs deep. I was moved to tears watching what the detectives, the defense attorney's investigator, and even the judge did to Brenden Massey . . . how do these people stoop to such evil that they would go after a 16 yr old kid of limited intelligence who CLEARLY knows nothing about any crime committed by Steven Avery, if one was even committed. AND HE IS STILL IN PRISON!! How screwed up is our justice system? How can cops pull a kid from school and interview him for 4 hours without a parent or lawyer present? Then make sure he never sees another free day in his life after pumping him full of a confession?? Sadly, it happens A LOT, I don't understand how any decent member of law enforcement could sleep at night trampling the rights and lives of kids like that.

I also don't get how you become such a giant POS like Fina, Masser, Eckel, Peetz, Surma, Erickson, et al that you could callously ruin the lives and reputations of good men, based on obvious falsehoods, without a second thought.

Jeez, sorry just venting. these injustices drive me crazy. these people are scum that do this.

Lord Acton had it right in the 1800's when he said “All power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.” It was true then. It is true today.

 

[smilinjoe]

Brandon's brother and step dad seem a little suspicious too me.

btw, curious to hear who people think DID kill Teresa Halbach. Shoulda put up a poll or something.

 

[WeR0206]

Brandon's brother and step dad seem a little suspicious too me.

+1 or the ex bf/roommate. Finding out who kept calling the girl right before she disappeared would have a been a logical place to start.

Literally anyone other than Steven, a person who was just about to get millions of dollars from the county/state, would have been better suspects. There was no motive for Steve to kill this girl right as his case against the county was picking up steam.

That was quite the coincidence, some bigwigs from the county were about to get deposed then boom, Steve arrested for murder. The timing was impeccable...

 

[Big 0]

Something I learned during my psych rotation many years ago at a now defunct state mental hospital. The question was asked where do you find the largest collection of individuals with sociopathic personality disorder (now called antisocial personality disorder)? Everyone in the group said prison, of course. The head psychiatrist said we were wrong. The correct answer is law enforcement. His many years of experience administrating psychological testing to local police departments confirmed this fact. So you now have your answer about corruption. These people can be very charming but have utter disregard for others. They like being in authority and having the ability to get away with taking liberties with people because of such authority. There are quite a few attorneys, not the majority, that have this as well, which can be applicable in the setting of a DA's or AG's office.

 

[Black Elmo 2]

Keep in mind that Making of a Murderer was as one-sided a perspective as you're likely to find in a documentary. I don't know whether Avery is innocent or guilty, and won't criticize the jury's decision without having heard all the evidence myself.

From what was shown it seemed to me that the defense should have made more out of the lack of physical evidence - no blood, no bleach, no remnants of a clean-up, no hair, etc. I would like to know how the prosecution argued around that since it wasn't made entirely clear in the documentary.

 

[simons96]

+1 or the ex bf/roommate. Finding out who kept calling the girl right before she disappeared would have a been a logical place to start.

Literally anyone other than Steven, a person who was just about to get millions of dollars from the county/state, would have been better suspects. There was no motive for Steve to kill this girl right as his case against the county was picking up steam.

That was quite the coincidence, some bigwigs from the county were about to get deposed then boom, Steve arrested for murder. The timing was impeccable...

boy that ex-boyfriend stood out to me as a likely suspect.

 

[simons96]

As for Avery, all my spidey senses have him marked down as guilty, guilty, guilty. He is, without a doubt in my mind, a menace to society. But, admittedly, I have not been influenced by viewing a sympathetic portrayal of his case.

I don't think the documentary is "sympathetic". It lays out a lot of holes in the narrative the state created.

Avery DID spend 18 years in prison for a crime he did not commit (yet even some of the police, under oath, hedge their belief in his innocence). He was suing the county that put him there. There is an amazing and continued injustice towards Avery - whether or not you believe in his guilt or innocence - that is chilling. There is a continued injustice towards his family, especially when you watch the video of his nephew's 4 hour interrogation. Those officers will make you ill with their tactics, and then you realize they likely do this to MANY people.

Avery is undoubtedly a very flawed person. He has a violent and somewhat uneven past which is NOT glossed over in the film. But that does not excuse the continued dirty tactics the police appeared to use to secure his conviction in BOTH trials.

 

[wbcincy]

I don't think the documentary is "sympathetic". It lays out a lot of holes in the narrative the state created.

Avery DID spend 18 years in prison for a crime he did not commit (yet even some of the police, under oath, hedge their belief in his innocence). He was suing the county that put him there. There is an amazing and continued injustice towards Avery - whether or not you believe in his guilt or innocence - that is chilling. There is a continued injustice towards his family, especially when you watch the video of his nephew's 4 hour interrogation. Those officers will make you ill with their tactics, and then you realize they likely do this to MANY people.

Avery is undoubtedly a very flawed person. He has a violent and somewhat uneven past which is NOT glossed over in the film. But that does not excuse the continued dirty tactics the police appeared to use to secure his conviction in BOTH trials.

The documentary was purely sympathetic IMO. They glossed over that cat incident because it would make him look bad to really describe what happened. They let him just say he "threw a cat over the fire" and pretend that's it. In actuality, he was found to have poured gasoline on the cat and threw it INTO the fire.

They also failed to discuss in any way that Teresa had told others that she was creeped out by Avery. That Avery had answered the door when she arrived wearing nothing but a towel in the past. That she didn't want to go to his location for her job anymore. That Avery would call and say the job was for his sister to try to get her to come. Just no mention of any of that.

Also little to no mention of the fact that Avery's nephew told investigators that Avery lifted the hood latch on Teresa's car and took out the battery. Investigators then found DNA evidence of Avery's sweat on the hood latch after that revelation.

And as for the huge revelation about the hole in the top of the blood vial. That hole is in EVERY blood vial. They come sealed, the hole is punctured when they put the blood INTO the vial.

So when the documentary just ignores so many major things that would harm their narrative, they lose all credibility. Ironic that the documentary's point is that the police decide on narrative right away and then manipulate things to fit that narrative, and yet that's exactly what they did with their documentary.

All that said, I think Avery is guilty, but I also think there's a decent chance the police may have done some things to ensure the conviction. Which is obviously horrible if true, but I don't think Avery is innocent.

 

[simons96]

The documentary was purely sympathetic IMO. They glossed over that cat incident because it would make him look bad to really describe what happened. They let him just say he "threw a cat over the fire" and pretend that's it. In actuality, he was found to have poured gasoline on the cat and threw it INTO the fire.

and this proves he was guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach HOW??

They also failed to discuss in any way that Teresa had told others that she was creeped out by Avery. That Avery had answered the door when she arrived wearing nothing but a towel in the past. That she didn't want to go to his location for her job anymore. That Avery would call and say the job was for his sister to try to get her to come. Just no mention of any of that.

and this proves he was guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach HOW?? How does creepy translate into motive to murder and dismember? please, enlighten me to his motive for murdering her.

Also little to no mention of the fact that Avery's nephew told investigators that Avery lifted the hood latch on Teresa's car and took out the battery. Investigators then found DNA evidence of Avery's sweat on the hood latch after that revelation.

and this proves he was guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach HOW?? This evidence was found by the same police who are accused of framing him.

And as for the huge revelation about the hole in the top of the blood vial. That hole is in EVERY blood vial. They come sealed, the hole is punctured when they put the blood INTO the vial.

and this proves he was guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach HOW?? The police could have also easily used the pre-existing puncture mark to EXTRACT blood.

So when the documentary just ignores so many major things that would harm their narrative, they lose all credibility. Ironic that the documentary's point is that the police decide on narrative right away and then manipulate things to fit that narrative, and yet that's exactly what they did with their documentary.

yet everything you mention is either insignificant, or repeats other evidence already in the film

All that said, I think Avery is guilty, but I also think there's a decent chance the police may have done some things to ensure the conviction. Which is obviously horrible if true, but I don't think Avery is innocent.

The Manitowoc County Sherrif's Department was ORDERED not to be a part of this investigation. yet every piece of "critical" evidence used to convict Steven Avery was discovered by the Manitowoc County Sherrif's Department when they were NOT being supervised by investigators of the neighboring county. Funny how you fail to mention that.

 

[simons96]

btw, here are two separate interviews with a juror who was dismissed from the jury after his daughter was in a suspicious car accident:

Jurors voted to convict out of fear for their safety

Two jurors allegedly relatives of county employees

some choice quotes:

Mahler was ultimately excused from the trial after his daughter got into a car accident, but not before he spent more than four hours deliberating with the jury. Early on, the jurors took a vote: seven innocent, three guilty and two undecided.

For his part, Mahler believes Avery is innocent and wishes that he'd stayed on the jury.

"He seemed like he had a good head on his shoulders," says Mahler, who watched Avery closely throughout the trial. "He just sat there and listened contently. I didn't see him once or hardly at all put his head down like, 'Poor me.' He seemed like he was honestly innocent."

After the trial ended, Mahler met up with another juror to go to a concert. While there, he asked the man why the jury had come up with a guilty verdict. "And his statement was, 'Just think of all those things he did when he was younger,' " says Mahler. "I thought to myself, 'Are you serious?'

 

[Grant Green]

Avery most likely did it. The police most likely planted evidence to help their case.

 

[simons96]

UPDATE: Well in tracking down more information on the dismissed juror, it seems Mahler is identified as the juror who's daughter was in a suspicious accident, but this other article lists Juror #11 as Rick Ray:

LINK

I think rick ray is his "stage name" . . . appears to be the same guy

 

[psualt]

If you liked making of a murderer you have to listen to the podcast Serial on Adnan Sayed. IMO much more balanced too. Not as much questionable police work but intriguing on how people get convicted with evidence/testimony that is highly suspect. Amazing to me how it's as if evidence that doesn't fit a narrative is just ignored.

 

[simons96]

wow, talk about ironies . . . prosecutor Ken Kratz ultimately left the Calumet County DA's office because of . . .

A SEXTING SCANDAL

 

[simons96]

+1 or the ex bf/roommate. Finding out who kept calling the girl right before she disappeared would have a been a logical place to start.

Literally anyone other than Steven, a person who was just about to get millions of dollars from the county/state, would have been better suspects. There was no motive for Steve to kill this girl right as his case against the county was picking up steam.

That was quite the coincidence, some bigwigs from the county were about to get deposed then boom, Steve arrested for murder. The timing was impeccable...

wow. google George Zipperer . . . seems like he may have actually been the last person to see Teresa Halbach alive . . .

 

[Mile High Lion]

I decided to re watch Making a Murderer after listening to Ziegler's interview this afternoon.

One thing I keep coming back to is . . . how do corrupt people get away with being so corrupt? Especially in law enforcement.

I'm not sure I have ever experienced people so pathological as the people I see working in law enforcement/courtrooms in these 2 cases. Not saying our entire criminal justice system is corrupt, lots of good cops and prosecutors and judges out there, but . . . .

It seem like the depth of corruption in PA and Wisconisn runs deep. I was moved to tears watching what the detectives, the defense attorney's investigator, and even the judge did to Brenden Massey . . . how do these people stoop to such evil that they would go after a 16 yr old kid of limited intelligence who CLEARLY knows nothing about any crime committed by Steven Avery, if one was even committed. AND HE IS STILL IN PRISON!! How screwed up is our justice system? How can cops pull a kid from school and interview him for 4 hours without a parent or lawyer present? Then make sure he never sees another free day in his life after pumping him full of a confession?? Sadly, it happens A LOT, I don't understand how any decent member of law enforcement could sleep at night trampling the rights and lives of kids like that.

I also don't get how you become such a giant POS like Fina, Masser, Eckel, Peetz, Surma, Erickson, et al that you could callously ruin the lives and reputations of good men, based on obvious falsehoods, without a second thought.

Jeez, sorry just venting. these injustices drive me crazy. these people are scum that do this.

Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown.

 

[wbcincy]

The documentary was purely sympathetic IMO. They glossed over that cat incident because it would make him look bad to really describe what happened. They let him just say he "threw a cat over the fire" and pretend that's it. In actuality, he was found to have poured gasoline on the cat and threw it INTO the fire.

and this proves he was guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach HOW??

They also failed to discuss in any way that Teresa had told others that she was creeped out by Avery. That Avery had answered the door when she arrived wearing nothing but a towel in the past. That she didn't want to go to his location for her job anymore. That Avery would call and say the job was for his sister to try to get her to come. Just no mention of any of that.

and this proves he was guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach HOW?? How does creepy translate into motive to murder and dismember? please, enlighten me to his motive for murdering her.

Also little to no mention of the fact that Avery's nephew told investigators that Avery lifted the hood latch on Teresa's car and took out the battery. Investigators then found DNA evidence of Avery's sweat on the hood latch after that revelation.

and this proves he was guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach HOW?? This evidence was found by the same police who are accused of framing him.

And as for the huge revelation about the hole in the top of the blood vial. That hole is in EVERY blood vial. They come sealed, the hole is punctured when they put the blood INTO the vial.

and this proves he was guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach HOW?? The police could have also easily used the pre-existing puncture mark to EXTRACT blood.

So when the documentary just ignores so many major things that would harm their narrative, they lose all credibility. Ironic that the documentary's point is that the police decide on narrative right away and then manipulate things to fit that narrative, and yet that's exactly what they did with their documentary.

yet everything you mention is either insignificant, or repeats other evidence already in the film

All that said, I think Avery is guilty, but I also think there's a decent chance the police may have done some things to ensure the conviction. Which is obviously horrible if true, but I don't think Avery is innocent.

The Manitowoc County Sherrif's Department was ORDERED not to be a part of this investigation. yet every piece of "critical" evidence used to convict Steven Avery was discovered by the Manitowoc County Sherrif's Department when they were NOT being supervised by investigators of the neighboring county. Funny how you fail to mention that.

Calm down. I never said any of things I pointed prove he murdered her, I pointed out that excluding them makes clear where the filmmakers sympathies lie. And if you think the things I pointed out are insignificant, then I'm glad you aren't involved in the justice system.

 

[simons96]

Calm down. I never said any of things I pointed prove he murdered her, I pointed out that excluding them makes clear where the filmmakers sympathies lie. And if you think the things I pointed out are insignificant, then I'm glad you aren't involved in the justice system.

me too! I'd hate to lose all my ethics!

 

[wbcincy]

me too! I'd hate to lose all my ethics!

Yep, everyone in the criminal justice system has no ethics. Keep that tin foil hat on!

 

[simons96]

Yep, everyone in the criminal justice system has no ethics. Keep that tin foil hat on!

people like you put innocent people in jail for 18 years because they "deserve" it

 

[wbcincy]

people like you put innocent people in jail for 18 years because they "deserve" it

Where did anything I said lead you to that conclusion. Give me a break, get over yourself.

 

[simons96]

Where did anything I said lead you to that conclusion. Give me a break, get over yourself.

no, I won't get over myself.

 

[Black Elmo 2]

The former boy friend OR a suicide. Cops found her and moved the body to stage the crime scene.

Suicide? You sure pulled that one out of your bass. There is absolutely no history of depression, mental illness or treatment, genetic disposition toward suicide, depression, talk of suicide, a suicide note, a goodbye cruel world communication, or anything that even remotely suggests she was an unhappy person who thought about harming herself.

 

[Grant Green]

people like you put innocent people in jail for 18 years because they "deserve" it

And suckers like you are born every day.

 

[simons96]

oh no! I put you on ignore! now I can't read your BS any more!

 

[WeR0206]

And suckers like you are born every day.

The only people who are suckers are those who think all prosecutors are moral, ethical, upstanding folks who's only pursuit is the truth when in fact that is far from the case.

Seeing what perverted guys like fina and katz did was quite eye opening to say the least.

 

[simons96]

The only people who are suckers are those who think all prosecutors are moral, ethical, upstanding folks who's only pursuit is the truth when in fact that is far from the case.

Seeing what perverted guys like fina and katz did was quite eye opening to say the least.

Katz was also accused of using his position as a prosecutor to go after women he had charged. I'll post some more info when I get home.

If you watched the series, think about how Katz held that press conference detailing Brendan Dassey's "confession", and the narrative that Halbach had been bound and sexually tortured . . . which is what Katz was eventually accused of trying to do with several women.

But . . . I'm the chump.

 

[Grant Green]

The only people who are suckers are those who think all prosecutors are moral, ethical, upstanding folks who's only pursuit is the truth when in fact that is far from the case.

Seeing what perverted guys like fina and katz did was quite eye opening to say the least.

I didn't say they were.
Free jerry and Steven!

 

[Black Elmo 2]

I wonder if Jerry has written to Project Innocence.

 

[edsel]

KILL THE SYSTEM AND PEOPLE IN THE SYSTEM