OT: London High Rise Fire...

[LionDeNittany]

Someone who inherits a $700,000 oceanfront apartment qualifies them as one of the rich people, in my book.

But you're right - 100% of the blame for this disaster lies with the landlord who failed to provide a safe living environment for the residents after years of complaints, and on the (formerly) governing party in government for fighting tooth and nail against mandatory sprinkler laws and who cut spending to programs that assisted in retrofitting buildings with fire protection mechanisms.

Again, complaining does very little. Complaining is somewhat easy.

When the rubber meets the road and someone has to dig into their pocket or do work they suddenly disappear.

The management org was comprised of residents. So they can blame themselves.

LdN

 

[Raffycorn]

Again, complaining does very little. Complaining is somewhat easy.

When the rubber meets the road and someone has to dig into their pocket or do work they suddenly disappear.

The management org was comprised of residents. So they can blame themselves.

LdN

It was comprised of residents - of the nearly 10,000 properties that the private company manages. The actual residents organization of the building that burned had been reporting safety violations, poor maintenance and fire hazards for years prior to the fire this week, and their requests went unanswered both by the landlord and by the government.

At the end of the day, even though it's managed by a private company, it is public housing and was the victim of years of funding cuts and deregulation by the Tory government. But, rather than installing sprinklers or other safety features, they decided to spend the money they did have to add a flammable cladding to make the building look nicer to improve the view of nearby luxury apartments.

 

[voltz99]

Plastic exterior...terrible mistake. Apparently put on recently. UK needs to look at fire codes. You are essentially encasing the building with fuel. Even modern sprinklers no good in this case -- the sprinklers can't soak the OUTSIDE of the building.

It would be the same problem with vinyl siding on an apartment building. I think you're limited to 3 story building to put vinyl on in most US jurisdictions. Definitely not a good idea for a 27-story building.

There is pretty much no way to make plastic non-flammable. It's made of petroleum and at the right temperature it will melt, vaporize and then burn explosively. Building exteriors need to be masonry, steel, glass, stucco, concrete, any kind of ceramic, stone.... But that's more expensive.

The SAME material that was on the London building is on some buildings in the USA.

Isn't petroleum used to make the foam insulation board that goes on houses in the USA?

 

[voltz99]

Someone who inherits a $700,000 oceanfront apartment qualifies them as one of the rich people, in my book.

But you're right - 100% of the blame for this disaster lies with the landlord who failed to provide a safe living environment for the residents after years of complaints, and on the (formerly) governing party in government for fighting tooth and nail against mandatory sprinkler laws and who cut spending to programs that assisted in retrofitting buildings with fire protection mechanisms.

Should have closed the building, remodeled and then doubled the rent.

 

[step.eng69]

(Dan Kitwood/Getty Images)


Exterior aluminum composite panels on the Grenfell Tower in London could have helped spread a fire that killed at least 17 people, and experts say the fire is similar to ones in Australia, France, the United Arab Emirates, South Korea and the US. "[A fire] doesn't travel up concrete, does it, so it's got to have traveled up something, and the cladding was there, so, prima facie, the cladding has been the cause of the fire spreading up the external parts of the building," said fire safety expert Graham Fieldhouse.

link: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-high-rise-blaze-also-used-in-grenfell-tower


Cladding in London high-rise fire also blamed for 2014 Melbourne blaze

A fire at the Lacrosse building in Melbourne’s Docklands in 2014 is strikingly similar to London blaze as investigations point to cladding used in buildings

The same type of cladding was installed on the Grenfell Tower in 2016, as part of a £10m renovation.

Aluminum composite panels have a polyethylene or plastic core and an aluminum coating. It is a cheap building material widely used worldwide to clad high-rise apartment buildings.
There have been reports of fires involving aluminum cladding in residential towers in France, the United Arab Emirates, South Korea and the US.

In a report into the investigation of the Lacrosse fire, the Melbourne metropolitan fire brigade said the rapid vertical spread of the fire was “directly associated” with the external cladding.

“Had the external wall cladding been of a non-combustible type, the likelihood of fire spread beyond the level of ignition would have been greatly reduced,” it said.

David Youssef, the deputy chief fire officer for the MFB, said at the time: “Those of us that have been around for 30 years or more have never seen a fire develop in this way.

“We never expected to see a high-rise fire, particularly one in a new building, that would spread so quickly from the eighth floor to the 21st floor.”

Australia’s national science agency, the CSIRO, conducted tests on the cladding and found it was combustible and did not meet building codes.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

The SAME material that was on the London building is on some buildings in the USA.

Isn't petroleum used to make the foam insulation board that goes on houses in the USA?

Fire Safety experts call some styles of foam insulation "solid gasoline" for how they burn. Plus, they give off deadly fumes when burning.

Google the "Station Nightclub Fire" for an awful example of dangerous materials, regulatory malfeasance, and criminal negligence.

 

[TheGLOV]

 

[TheGLOV]

In addition it appears that many of the common areas were filled with rubbish and things like mattresses. They said the management refused to remove this which could have also contributed to the fast spreading fire.

 

[manatree]

Wow just seeing this thread. I used to work for a company that manufactured fire retardant material. Not sure if it was around then, but now many structures wrap the beams with endothermic material. The thought is it will buy time for people to get out of large structures. The problem is elevator shafts, chaseways/ HVAC shafts, etc. send oxygen to the fire. If those beams get hot enough, the structure will be significantly weakened. IIRC that is what happened to the World Trade Center.

Horrible situation.

The WTC Towers did have fire protection on the structural steel. However there were two unforeseen problems. 1) The impact and initial explosions from the planes actually knocked a lot of the fire coating loose, exposing the beams. 2) The amount of fuel on the planes caused the fire to burn hotter than the rating of the protection.

 

[STPGopherfan]

The WTC Towers did have fire protection on the structural steel. However there were two unforeseen problems. 1) The impact and initial explosions from the planes actually knocked a lot of the fire coating loose, exposing the beams. 2) The amount of fuel on the planes caused the fire to burn hotter than the rating of the protection.

Agree. Whether endothermic/ releasing water etc. or just insulating, all of those systems are trying to buy time for the fire to be extinguished or get people out. The World Trade Center was a poor example on my part due to other factors. Most you already mentioned.

 

[Royal_Coaster]

Here's what a section of a panel looks like. The part that bothers me is the ventilation cavity. Extend that up 24 stories, and you basically turn the building into a large chimney.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3823836/grenfell-tower-was-over-insulated-with-flammable-cladding-that-went-over-and-above-regulations-to-avoid-a-repeat-job/

“The cladding looks lovely, it’s cheap, complies with regulations and gives the building a high environmental rating. "But it’s a silent killer.

I find that part intriguing.

 

[STPGopherfan]

Here's what a section of a panel looks like. The part that bothers me is the ventilation cavity. Extend that up 24 stories, and you basically turn the building into a large chimney.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/38238...-and-above-regulations-to-avoid-a-repeat-job/

“The cladding looks lovely, it’s cheap, complies with regulations and gives the building a high environmental rating. "But it’s a silent killer.

I find that part intriguing.

Yes. That can also be a problem with spaces for conduit, etc.

 

[voltz99]

Yes. That can also be a problem with spaces for conduit, etc.

No. It is only a problem if there is flammable products in the cavity.

 

[KnightSlayer]

Again, If they used an approved material and installed it correctly, that is not the building designer/contractor's fault.

Well then...

Flammable cladding that helped the inferno which destroyed the Grenfell tower is already illegal on tall buildings in Britain, Philip Hammond claimed today.

The Chancellor said criminal probes and a public inquiry into the disaster would answer why the controversial material was used.

It emerged today that the cladding installed on Grenfell was not designed for use on buildings taller than 10metres high - a fraction of the 67metre Grenfell block.

The Department for Communities and Local Government said cladding with a flammable core - like that used on Grenfell Tower - was banned on buildings over 18metres high.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Grenfell-cladding-illegal.html#ixzz4kf48vwdI

 

[manatree]

Why did the government allow an illegal product to be used? If it was illegal, it should not have passed inspection. It sounds like the govt could be liable as well.

 

[Raffycorn]

Why did the government allow an illegal product to be used? If it was illegal, it should not have passed inspection. It sounds like the govt could be liable as well.

Absolutely the government should be on the hook, too - both for the passed inspection as well as the extreme budget cuts that stripped funding from the government entities who are supposed to prevent unscrupulous parties from endangering tenants and the failure to put appropriate policies into place. If I recall correctly, the housing minister had pushed back on requiring older buildings to be retrofitted with sprinklers, arguing that they shouldn't be required because the sprinkler industry should be marketing them better.

 

[91Joe95]

Why did the government allow an illegal product to be used? If it was illegal, it should not have passed inspection. It sounds like the govt could be liable as well.

Beauracracies are dangerous. They hide problems and suck up resources.

 

[STPGopherfan]

No. It is only a problem if there is flammable products in the cavity.

I've heard conflicting opinions on this topic. Some argue that it is an oxygen source. If it is something such as an elevator shaft or conduit chaseways, fuel sources(limited quantities of combustables) would be present.

 

[Nittany.Lion]

Here's what a section of a panel looks like. The part that bothers me is the ventilation cavity. Extend that up 24 stories, and you basically turn the building into a large chimney.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/38238...-and-above-regulations-to-avoid-a-repeat-job/

“The cladding looks lovely, it’s cheap, complies with regulations and gives the building a high environmental rating. "But it’s a silent killer.

I find that part intriguing.

I have experience with this type of cladding material (Aluminum Composite Panels like what's shown in the drawing, Alucobond is one brand) it is not cheap, on the order of $50/sf for a turnkey installation. A fire rated core can be specified.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.aspena.../2015_Feb_TP.pdf?hhSearchTerms="installation"

 

[STPGopherfan]

I have experience with this type of cladding material (Aluminum Composite Panels like what's shown in the drawing, Alucobond is one brand) it is not cheap, on the order of $50/sf for a turnkey installation. A fire rated core can be specified.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.aspenational.org/resource/resmgr/Techical_Papers/2015_Feb_TP.pdf?hhSearchTerms="installation"

Just adding another link.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...m_content=gba_eletter&cid=12372&mid=167089541