Here is the only RWD vehicle that is exponentially better in slop compared to AWD ...
OT: Lexus or BMW
- Thread starter RGWhirly
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my opinion on drive options:
- FWD is the best in winter's normal driving condition like light slop and potential ice (bridges, and such).
- AWD is slightly worse than FWD in normal winter conditions but is better if you have to power through six to ten inches so you don't get stuck. However, advances in limited slip differentials make this advantage minimal.
- RWD is better in dry conditions and provide greater flexibility for the driving in cornering and handling. But is far worse, no matter the times, in icy/wintery conditions. Ideal in the south, southwest.
100% Agree - I had an older Lexus and I thought it looked good - the new ones are pure ugly, WTF were they thinking? Did they do zero market research, I know of absolutely no one who likes the looks of that god awful front end they have on all their cars now.
I rarely disagree with you but will here. FWD vs RWD is simple physics. The front wheels turn into the bend. And then the FWD pulls you through the turn. RWD pushes the car straight and the car will go forward except for the friction of the front tires being less around the bend and not forward. When there is less friction, called ice, the car tends to go straight and the driver looses control
Agreed totally on the front end shark look...hope it changes in a year or two when 'll be looking to upgrade again.
And as part of the Volkswagen Group, Audi's are largely VW's.*
*Although to Audi's credit and unlike Lexus/Infiniti/Acura has done historically, the distinction between the Audi line and the VW line is consistent globally.
A few have touched on the real difference - that being how the car actually drives. If you enjoy the act of driving itself, get the BMW. If you simply want a luxury vehicle to get you from point A to point B, then get the Lexus. In a BMW you (can) become more of the driving experience, whereas in a Lexus you are more isolated from the driving experience. These are general statements, not covering all models from both manufacturers, but I believe they basically hold true.
My daily driver is a 2011 BMW 328 sedan and before that I had a 2001 BMW 325 sedan. Essentially maintenance only (oil changes, brakes, tires, etc); not sure where the gripes about BMW reliability come from, as I know several people who own a variety of models and not one has had anything out of the ordinary.
True bottom line - when you are picking between a new Lexus or a new BMW, life is pretty good.
My daily driver is a 2011 BMW 328 sedan and before that I had a 2001 BMW 325 sedan. Essentially maintenance only (oil changes, brakes, tires, etc); not sure where the gripes about BMW reliability come from, as I know several people who own a variety of models and not one has had anything out of the ordinary.
True bottom line - when you are picking between a new Lexus or a new BMW, life is pretty good.
The earlier post was specific to the 5-series X-drive vs. the standard 5-series which is, of course, is not offered with FWD...
My point is that RWD and FWD are perfectly FINE in snow, excellent actually, providing one has the correct winter snow+ice tires and 6/32+ tread depth (min!) ... to the point where, when one has the right winter tires, AWD is essentially a waste of money (upfront to the dealer, likewise the weight and driveline friction penalty)... winter tires ARE THAT GOOD... simply a difference-maker...
Furthermore, there are certain areas where RWD is actually preferred in the winter... ( There’s a reason why old RWD Volvo 240/740/760/960s are still a common sight in the hills of Ithaca NY/ Cornell... and it’s not just the hippie / hipster professors)...
My business requires frequent visits to the Cornell campus, likewise others situated on hilly terrain across smowy Upstate NY. At one time I owned what was recognized by automobile publications as a fun-to-drive light, fling-able hatchback ... not one that would be top-of-mind as far as a winter driving preference, particularly with factory spec low-profile tires... I shod it with some 50-series Dunlop Graspics on black steelies I found on Craigslist, wasn’t expecting much because the car , with a scant 2,600lb curb weight, checked all of the boxes as far as being a dreadful winter-driving partner.... even with a relatively wide contact-patch, the snow tires completely transformed the little car, making it exponentially better in the slick than the AWD crossover i previously drove (even with expensive Michelin AT-X all seasons)... it was then I swore off the perceived need for AWD...
the average driver, which I count myself among, simply just does not need AWD.
AWD itself is of negligible help when one is relying on “ allseason” tires... the fleet car I use for work is a brand new Subaru Legacy and, even with fresh OEM rubber, it’s as dangerous as any FWD or RWD when the temps drop into the teens and there is precip on the macadam... while I am no Sebastien Loeb I am a good enough driver to blip the throttle to throttle-steer/correct the Legacy back onto its axis, but it’s still a scary car near the limit with all season tires...
My point is that RWD and FWD are perfectly FINE in snow, excellent actually, providing one has the correct winter snow+ice tires and 6/32+ tread depth (min!) ... to the point where, when one has the right winter tires, AWD is essentially a waste of money (upfront to the dealer, likewise the weight and driveline friction penalty)... winter tires ARE THAT GOOD... simply a difference-maker...
Furthermore, there are certain areas where RWD is actually preferred in the winter... ( There’s a reason why old RWD Volvo 240/740/760/960s are still a common sight in the hills of Ithaca NY/ Cornell... and it’s not just the hippie / hipster professors)...
My business requires frequent visits to the Cornell campus, likewise others situated on hilly terrain across smowy Upstate NY. At one time I owned what was recognized by automobile publications as a fun-to-drive light, fling-able hatchback ... not one that would be top-of-mind as far as a winter driving preference, particularly with factory spec low-profile tires... I shod it with some 50-series Dunlop Graspics on black steelies I found on Craigslist, wasn’t expecting much because the car , with a scant 2,600lb curb weight, checked all of the boxes as far as being a dreadful winter-driving partner.... even with a relatively wide contact-patch, the snow tires completely transformed the little car, making it exponentially better in the slick than the AWD crossover i previously drove (even with expensive Michelin AT-X all seasons)... it was then I swore off the perceived need for AWD...
the average driver, which I count myself among, simply just does not need AWD.
AWD itself is of negligible help when one is relying on “ allseason” tires... the fleet car I use for work is a brand new Subaru Legacy and, even with fresh OEM rubber, it’s as dangerous as any FWD or RWD when the temps drop into the teens and there is precip on the macadam... while I am no Sebastien Loeb I am a good enough driver to blip the throttle to throttle-steer/correct the Legacy back onto its axis, but it’s still a scary car near the limit with all season tires...
#understeeristheenemy
See my other post... If you drive in hilly areas of Central NY, RWD is your friend... FWD in the snow is wrestling with understeer... my wife’s car is FWD and, yeah, it’s fine with Blizzaks... but I would not shy away from a RWD car as long as I have good snows, in fact, it’s more fun
On the base models and the S lines, I would argue they are on whole cheaper than MB and BMW. Audi make so few RS models they charge a premium for the RS. With the limited production runs, Audi does not discount the RS.
IMO, Lexus waterfall grille ugly. BMW styling has morphed into really ugly , and just recently trending back into something worth having.That is, of course, exactly what I just posted.
Relative to the styling, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Agree...we speak in general terms but each person is different. I often look at the dozens of car models and manufacturers and think "do we really need this array of vehicle? seems like overkill...but here we are. It all comes down to personal choice, which is awesome.#understeeristheenemy
See my other post... If you drive in hilly areas of Central NY, RWD is your friend... FWD in the snow is wrestling with understeer... my wife’s car is FWD and, yeah, it’s fine with Blizzaks... but I would not shy away from a RWD car as long as I have good snows, in fact, it’s more fun
I’m sorry but would you mind repeating your thoughts on RWD vs AWD with/without winter/all-season tires?#understeeristheenemy
See my other post... If you drive in hilly areas of Central NY, RWD is your friend... FWD in the snow is wrestling with understeer... my wife’s car is FWD and, yeah, it’s fine with Blizzaks... but I would not shy away from a RWD car as long as I have good snows, in fact, it’s more fun
The base BMW 4 engine aligns with the Audi A vehicles. The inline 6 engine in the BMW 440i, 540i etc lines up with the Audi S class vehicles. The BMW M cars and the Audi RS cars are comparable.
As an example, the Audi S5 starts at $54,600; and a BMW 440i xdrive starts at $54,650 with the leather seat package.
My car didn't come with a spare or run flats actually. Most cars (not all) still have a spot for a donut under the floor of the trunk if you look.
Trust me, I've looked. Newer BMWs do not.
Edit: there is storage where the wheel well should be, but it isn't wheel shaped and therefore wouldn't hold a donut.
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AWD + Snow tires is where its at though.
You actually damage summer tires driving them in the cold. The tire compound is compromised driving on it for any distance below ~40 or whatever the tire manufacturer recommends, leaving you with 4 unsafe tires.
Anything done to the gts?
Gladly!
( i taste your sarcasm, but here it goes as this board needs a good hand-holding when it comes to driving their expensive cars to the wine store/driving range)
RWD in dry = fun
Enjoy an improved turning radius advantage of 3’ or greater everyday vs. AWD... not to mention improved road-feel / communication via steering wheel (at least in finer vehicles)RWD in snow without winter/ice tires = scary (but that can mean scary-fun if you drive like a Norwegian or Finnish rally driver
RWD in snow with winter/ice tires = no problem whatsoever... fantastic going up hills...
AWD in dry = why bother? (unless maybe if you have a track car and need an extra 0:00.5 on a timed road-course lap) ... extra weight/mechanical doo-daddery, driveline friction, compromised turning radius due to mechanical geometry... you’ve been sold a bill of goods
AWD in snow without proper winter tires = scary (but that can mean scary-fun if you drive like a Norweigian and understand/mastered the concept of throttle-steer)... what really puts my panties in a bunch is watching these fools bomb around expressways with a false sense of infallibilty ala dim-wad SUV/Crossover drivers you see catapulting into the snowy median
AWD in snow WITH winter/ice tires = no problem whatsoever... fantastic going up hills
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Just for the record, I have AWD and use ice/winter tires in winter and touring tires in summer. I sell my tires when the tread becomes “marginal” yet still has some useful life for the very reason you describe. I put on too many miles to use any other configuration.Gladly!
( i taste your sarcasm, but here it goes as this board needs a good hand-holding when it comes to driving their expensive cars to the wine store/driving range)
RWD in dry = fun
RWD in snow without winter/ice tires = scary (but that can mean scary-fun if you drive like a Norwegian or Finnish rally driver
RWD in snow with winter/ice tires = no problem whatsoever... fantastic going up hills...
AWD in dry = why bother? (unless maybe if you have a track car and need an extra 0:00.5 on a timed road-course lap) ... extra weight/mechanical doo-daddery, driveline friction, compromised turning radius due to mechanical geometry
AWD in snow without proper winter tires = scary (but that can mean scary-fun if you drive like a Norweigian and understand/mastered the concept of throttle-steer)
AWD in snow WITH winter/ice tires = no problem whatsoever... fantastic going up hills
Not a car expert but have had both. Probably an unfair comparison had a small Lexus and the yacht sized seven series BMW. After moving to SW FL did not need a large car so went with an Audi 4, great car, excellent ride.
Two words. Launch Control. This corvette has almost twice the horsepower of the vw but with awd and launch control the vw was actually quicker to 60 (probably more like 70/75 looking at the shift points). On the street, stoplight racing the vette wouldn't pull away.
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Here is the only RWD vehicle that is exponentially better in slop compared to AWD ...
Ummm No.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3091/the-myth-of-the-all-powerful-all-wheel-drive-15202862/
No problems with the car, it ran solid. We had frequent snows but largely less than 4 inches this past year. Did not do any modifications other than using the Pirelli snows. If there was 4 or more I'd use the Subaru for a day until the plows hit it. Waited till May to put the summer tires back on with it being a weird spring.
Have used winter tire/wheel set on 911's before. You can get good deals on Ebay in Sept. Oct. Florida tire centers are putting on more expensive after market wheels and selling the original wheels for a nice discount. Have had Cayenne Turbos and GTS and the summer tires mandate a winter tire package. I'm sure many of the entry level sports cars/sedans have summer rubber and most people do not give it a thought especially if it has AWD. As you know, those tires are made to shed rain, but snow clogs those things up really quickly and you have a dangerous situation.
My TIC post addressed your comment about RWD with snow tires being "exponentially better in slop" over AWD with all-season tires. The article you linked does zero to support your claim. In fact there is only one mention of RWD that actually goes against your claim (tires not mentioned) ...
"Some disagree, saying AWD helps bad-weather handling because it quells power on oversteer, the fishtailing rear-drive cars experience when a ham-footed driver is too rough on the accelerator. It is true that AWD is excellent at preventing the tail from stepping out under power. But this is not 'improving handling.' It's really aiding acceleration."
Many of us never have to drive on snow covered unplowed streets. So for me it’s more important how the car handles, and looks, in good weather. My last two Mercedes were 4 matics, first the c class and now the E which just has the 4 cylinder engine compared to the 6 in my old c300. But the 9 speed transmission keeps the car peppy - fast and responsive enough for how I normally drive. Gas mileage so far is about 29 mpg. Both cars just feel planted on the road and corner magnificently. The E can be set for comfort, sport, or sport plus for when you want to air it out on winding roads. But the biggest plus for me is all the safety features now to avoid crashes. If the car senses a side impact crash the seats move you towards the center console away from the door and a pink noise is emitted to prevent eardrum injuries. With 8 cameras all around the car the driver is warned before getting too close to something and it will stop on its own to avoid a front or rear collision. Lane departure and correction, and dynamic cruise control help with that too. It even has self park but I never use it. Finally the interior is beautiful with brown leather and real burled walnut dash, and the 13 speaker Burmeister sound system makes the Blue Band sounds terrific. People should by whatever makes their heart flutter and just enjoy driving. Life is much more than a financial calculation. All the German cars are excellent (except maybe VW in my opinion), and you can’t go wrong with the BMW, Audi, or Mercedes.
Only with the smaller engine though. Still, a lot of performance compared to the same money spent on an Audi or a BMW.
The G70 is in the compact segment (the G80 is the Genesis mid-sizer).
But very accurate as the person behind a big chunk of development of the G70 was none other than Albert Biermann (former head of BMW's M division).
As for Lexus, aside from the current design language, the biggest issue for the brand is continually falling behind the competition when it comes to powertrains (at the same time, a big reason why Lexus has been reliable).
Not surprisingly, Lexus RWD sales have plummeted and predominantly relies on its FWD models for sales.
Seems like the IS lives on, but things look more tenuous for the GS.
Dude, NJ averages about 20” of snow per winter season... that’s what we call a wintery day here on the shore of Lake Ontario*
Nice deflection. Yes it snows it NJ, certainly enough to determine how one's automobile performs in the snow.
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anon_1eeb2b426hv3y
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I actually went Lexus again this past weekend.
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