Yesterday afternoon I went with a friend to move furniture from his old house to his new residence. He was pulled over for doing for doing 85 in a 70mph zone. During the stop I was asked to provide ID which I had left on his kitchen table so I wouldn't lose anything. My question is 1. Do I have to provide ID? And 2 did I violate the law by not having it on ne?
OT:legal question
- Thread starter ao5884
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IHMO..
1. No, you do not have to provide ID
2. No, you did not violate the law
PA Title 75
§ 1511. Carrying and exhibiting driver's license on demand.
(a) General rule.--Every licensee shall possess a driver's license issued to the licensee at all times when driving a motor vehicle and shall exhibit the license upon demand by a police officer, and when requested by the police officer the licensee shall write the licensee's name in the presence of the officer in order to provide identity.
1. No, you do not have to provide ID
2. No, you did not violate the law
PA Title 75
§ 1511. Carrying and exhibiting driver's license on demand.
(a) General rule.--Every licensee shall possess a driver's license issued to the licensee at all times when driving a motor vehicle and shall exhibit the license upon demand by a police officer, and when requested by the police officer the licensee shall write the licensee's name in the presence of the officer in order to provide identity.
Personally, my drivers license is in my wallet and always on me whenever I go somewhere. I'd never leave my license somewhere so I wouldn't lose it. Perhaps if you learn to keep it on you , you won't lose it?
yeah, how does not carrying your wallet make you LESS likely to lose it? I carry one of these in a front pocket and have NEVER lost one
Ninth Circuit says you can tell the cop to pound sand.
We live in the Third Circuit and I don’t believe it has been litigated here or at SCOTUS but the thought appears to be a similar conclusion would be reached.
In any event, since you were not driving you have no requirement to have ID on you.
edit to add - If the trooper did imply you were violating the law, I’d call his barracks and have a conversation with the sergeant. While there are plenty of screwups in the PSP ranks, IMO they take things pretty seriously.
We live in the Third Circuit and I don’t believe it has been litigated here or at SCOTUS but the thought appears to be a similar conclusion would be reached.
In any event, since you were not driving you have no requirement to have ID on you.
edit to add - If the trooper did imply you were violating the law, I’d call his barracks and have a conversation with the sergeant. While there are plenty of screwups in the PSP ranks, IMO they take things pretty seriously.
I didnt lose it i left it on the table so tgat it would not come out of my back pocket while we were neck deep in boxes loading up a truck. I wasn't driving so I didn't understand why he wanted my ID.
Ignore the judgemental types here. They are the ones that always know what is best for everyone.
It’s a reasonable question.... do we want to be stopped and ordered to ‘Show me your papers’?
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Have you ever had lower back pain? Sitting on a wallet can do that- especially if you drive a lot. I had real back issues until I switched to carrying a thinner wallet in a front pocket.
Police are typically trained to ask for ID and run any license provided just to possibly nab someone with a warrant. You don't have to provide it but they sure can ask. They also can ask to search your car even when you have no legal duty to allow it. If you say yes, they can search. They should not demand it, which is often a blurry area.
Yep. As soon as they move from traffic ticket to something else you are protected by the Bill of rights. You can tell them you will not speak and want to consult an attorney. Also know many will lie and say things that are not true, which is allowed. They can say they have the right to search your car because you’re taillight is out and it will be easier on you if you just say ok to a search.
Following advice on criminal law issues you received from anonymous internet sources is generally a bad idea. I'm licensed to practice law in the Commonwealth, but take what I say with a grain of salt and find a ciminal attorney and pay for advice you can rely on if you feel strongly about the issue.
In answer to your second question, there's no law in Pennsylvania requiring you to carry ID at all times.
This is a good place to note that unlike Ohio, Pennsylvania has no stop-and-identify statute. Stop-and-identify statutes generally require someone stopped on reasonable suspicion to identify themselves when the police demand it. Reasonable suspicion is a lower standard of evidence for stopping someone than probable cause, which is required for arrest. It's usually stated as the conclusion (a reasonable conclusion, of course) that, based on specific, articulable, facts someone is about to commit, is committing, or has committed a crime. Those facts are usually observations by a cop; he has to have something more than a raw gut feeling that wrongdoing is afoot.
Your first question is more complicated. Pennsylvania courts have ruled that a cop can ask all the occupants of a vehicle that has been stopped for ID. Commonwealth. v. Campbell, 862 A.2d 659 (Pa. Super. Ct. 2004). Unfortunately, that court opinion declined to address whether occupants were required to produce identification in response to a cop's request: "However, the issue of a passenger's right to not respond and the implication of Fifth Amendment claims in such circumstances are not before this court for review and must await another day."
The PA courts have flirted with answering that question directly, particularly in Commonwealth v. Au, 986 A.2d 864 (Pa. Super. Ct. 2009), and Commonwealth v. Reed, 19 A.3d 1163 (Pa. Super. Ct. 2011) but I'm not aware they've done so yet.
I am not offering you legal advice, especially because I haven't looked closely for case law developments over the last 10 years, but if I were a passenger in a car that had been stopped by police on the roads of the Commonwealth for a traffic violation committed by the driver and I was asked for ID even though there were no apparent grounds to establish reasonable suspicion against me, I would refuse to provide it and let the cards fall where they may. Unless, of course, the courts of the Commonwealth had answered that question in the affirmative and I was aware of that case law.
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Not sure of the answer to your question but I have a photo of my license that I have saved on my phone. When I go for a walk or a bike ride without wallet then at least I can show police some ID.
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