OT - Free Tuition for med students at NYU

[Nitwit]

I’m surprised that most med schools don’t do this considering it’s common for PHD students to receive free tuition in addition to receiving a stipend for being a TA. Easing the financial burden on Med students could take some of the pressure off their need to be high earners immediately after going into practice just to repay their debt. With the $29,000 required to live in NY plus the $55,000 in annual tuition, it’s no wonder Drs. are seeking high paying positions. Perhaps others will follow suit. Here is the jist:

New York University is offering free tuition for all of its medical students.

The move is a first among major U.S. medical schools, reports The Wall Street Journal. The university has raised $450 million out of the $600 million it estimates it will need to cover the scholarships, including $100 million from Home Depot founder Kenneth Langone and his wife, Elaine, according to the publication.

Rising tuition and six-figure loans have been pushing new doctors into higher-paying fields and contributing to a shortage of researchers and primary care physicians.

"This decision recognizes a moral imperative that must be addressed, as institutions place an increasing debt burden on young people who aspire to become physicians," Robert I. Grossman, dean of the medical school and chief executive officer of N.Y.U. Langone Health, told The New York Times.

Tuition had been set at about $55,000 for the coming year.

Most medical students will still need to pay about $29,000 for annual room and board and other living expenses.

 

[bdgan]

I’m surprised that most med schools don’t do this

All they have to do is raise a boat load of money. The professors, equipment, and infrastructure is not free. Somebody is paying for it.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Getting into NYU's med school just got a whole lot harder.

Anyhow, unlike law school, it is very very very expensive to run a med school. I don't think many schools have the elite donors that NYU has and can pull this off.

 

[KnightSlayer]

All they have to do is raise a boat load of money. The professors, equipment, and infrastructure is not free. Somebody is paying for it.

IMO Education is just as important to national defense as the military. We'd be better off as a country if we treated it like that.

 

[whart]

I’m surprised that most med schools don’t do this considering it’s common for PHD students to receive free tuition in addition to receiving a stipend for being a TA. Easing the financial burden on Med students could take some of the pressure off their need to be high earners immediately after going into practice just to repay their debt. With the $29,000 required to live in NY plus the $55,000 in annual tuition, it’s no wonder Drs. are seeking high paying positions. Perhaps others will follow suit. Here is the jist:

New York University is offering free tuition for all of its medical students.

The move is a first among major U.S. medical schools, reports The Wall Street Journal. The university has raised $450 million out of the $600 million it estimates it will need to cover the scholarships, including $100 million from Home Depot founder Kenneth Langone and his wife, Elaine, according to the publication.

Rising tuition and six-figure loans have been pushing new doctors into higher-paying fields and contributing to a shortage of researchers and primary care physicians.

"This decision recognizes a moral imperative that must be addressed, as institutions place an increasing debt burden on young people who aspire to become physicians," Robert I. Grossman, dean of the medical school and chief executive officer of N.Y.U. Langone Health, told The New York Times.

Tuition had been set at about $55,000 for the coming year.

Most medical students will still need to pay about $29,000 for annual room and board and other living expenses.

Just curious....what handcuffs ( if any)come with this "free tuition" ? Are there any post grad obligations that must be satisfied by any recipient? I actually like the concept of this program....in theory.

 

[Art]

What NYU did was laudable. Too bad they can't do the same thing for undergrads, tuition between $51k and 57k, where there reputation for financial aid is among the worst.

 

[Nitt1300]

IMO Education is just as important to national defense as the military. We'd be better off as a country if we treated it like that.

so is health care

 

[Art]

Just curious....what handcuffs ( if any)come with this "free tuition" ? Are there any post grad obligations that must be satisfied by any recipient? I actually like the concept of this program....in theory.

None.

 

[Obliviax]

so the school is now free to double, triple and increase medical tuition without a check and balance? Where is the check and balance.

I guess the roads in NY will just get worse.

 

[bdgan]

IMO Education is just as important to national defense as the military. We'd be better off as a country if we treated it like that.

A well educated citizenship certainly gives us an economic advantage but it's not free. Somebody has to pay for it and our entitlement programs are already going broke. Also, "free" college doesn't to a lot to reduce poverty. Nearly 20% don't graduate high school and almost 40% of children are born out of wedlock. That's where the poverty is.

I think we'd agree that the cost of a college education is out of control. I'm not sure how to fix that but government subsidies seem to embolden the universities to keep costs high.

 

[bdgan]

I guess the roads in NY will just get worse.

This program is being funded by philanthropy, not tax dollars.

The free undergraduate tuition program in NY is a different discussion.

 

[not so fast my friend]

Just curious....what handcuffs ( if any)come with this "free tuition" ? Are there any post grad obligations that must be satisfied by any recipient? I actually like the concept of this program....in theory.

What handcuffs? Still costs you $30K a year to live and eat there. But no restrictions that I saw in IOU fashion like some have (military, Indian Health, rural care promises, etc).

 

[Steve G]

What NYU did was laudable. Too bad they can't do the same thing for undergrads, tuition between $51k and 57k, where there reputation for financial aid is among the worst.

Georgia has such a program called Hope Scholarship. Its paid for by lottery money. Kid has to go last 2 years to a Georgia high school, get a certain grade point average and SAT score and depending get 80% or 100% tuition coverage at a Georgia state school. Have to keep grades up through out school as well, so it is merit based. That includes Ga Tech. When my dad was alive (PSU grad BS/ MS) and found out about this he started writing letters to legislatures about using PA lottery money for that instead of "old farts like me".

 

[bdgan]

Georgia has such a program called Hope Scholarship. Its paid for by lottery money. Kid has to go last 2 years to a Georgia high school, get a certain grade point average and SAT score and depending get 80% or 100% tuition coverage at a Georgia state school. Have to keep grades up through out school as well, so it is merit based. That includes Ga Tech. When my dad was alive (PSU grad BS/ MS) and found out about this he started writing letters to legislatures about using PA lottery money for that instead of "old farts like me".

That's better than the NY program that is purely income based. It's a disincentive system IMO. One parent makes $90k, the other parent won't work because the free tuition would go away. Same for merit based scholarships because they must be used first. In other words, a merit based scholarship is worthless if used in NYS schools.

But all that aside, many state universities are already heavily subsidized by taxpayers. For example, tuition and fees (excl room and board) at UB are $5k for residents vs. $14k for non residents. Tax credits cover $3k of that $5k. Community colleges have been virtually free for a long time once tax credits are taken into account. One of the biggest problems is kids that take large student loans to attend private universities while they major in things that don't lead to high paying jobs.

 

[LionJim]

Just curious....what handcuffs ( if any)come with this "free tuition" ? Are there any post grad obligations that must be satisfied by any recipient? I actually like the concept of this program....in theory.

None that I'm aware of. This is done all the time in mathematics graduate schools. I got paid a cool $8,500 a year with free tuition at Tennessee 38 years ago for teaching two classes a year.

 

[Raffycorn]

A well educated citizenship certainly gives us an economic advantage but it's not free. Somebody has to pay for it and our entitlement programs are already going broke. Also, "free" college doesn't to a lot to reduce poverty. Nearly 20% don't graduate high school and almost 40% of children are born out of wedlock. That's where the poverty is.

I think we'd agree that the cost of a college education is out of control. I'm not sure how to fix that but government subsidies seem to embolden the universities to keep costs high.

Somebody has to pay for the military, too, but we seem to have little issue or hand-wringing at the thought of spending more and more each year on that expenditure.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Expensive med schools, have you noticed how expensive vet school is? Penn is now over $100k a year.

Yeah, vet school's crazy, and they don't even make that much money these days. In my day, they used to tell the pre-vet people that if they didn't get into vet school, they could always go to med school as their back-up career. Not so anymore. I think it's a lot easier to get into vet school these days.

 

[bdgan]

Somebody has to pay for the military, too, but we seem to have little issue or hand-wringing at the thought of spending more and more each year on that expenditure.

What are you saying? Free healthcare, free college, and free whatever. Don't worry about it?

I think defense is the number 1 responsibility of the federal government and spending as a % of GDP is not high by historical measures. That said I don't like the idea of the U.S. paying to defend the world. We need our allies to step up. Furthermore, any program so huge is ripe for waste and fraud (just like Medicare). I belive the generals when they claim a lot of our equipment is worn and outdated but I can't help but to believe we could fund these things by making cuts elsewhere within the defense budget. But like any government program, once you start it's very difficult to cut it back.

 

[bdgan]

Yeah, vet school's crazy, and they don't even make that much money these days. In my day, they used to tell the pre-vet people that if they didn't get into vet school, they could always go to med school as their back-up career. Not so anymore. I think it's a lot easier to get into vet school these days.

Then why are vets so expensive?

 

[psu7113]

so is health care

Here come the liberals with their platitudes. And how, prey tell, do we pay for this “free” government provided education and health care that you are no doubt in favor of. In case you haven’t noticed, social security, Medicare and just about any other fully-government funded program are broke. Doubling and tripling down on that strategy ain’t going to work. In fact, one of the reasons that college and grad school tuition is so absurdly high is government involvement. The federal subsidization of student loans Judy caused schools to raise tuition...

 

[Art]

None that I'm aware of. This is done all the time in mathematics graduate schools. I got paid a cool $8,500 a year with free tuition at Tennessee 38 years ago for teaching two classes a year.

Pretty much the case for PhD candidates in all STEM programs (if someone is paying anything something is dreadfully wrong). In the lab sciences, the exchange is for endless hours in the lab instead of teaching classes. Most of it is funded by our friends in DC.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

So Alabama is paying as much for their athletic facilities, as it will cost to fund this initiative.

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Nitt1300]

Here come the liberals with their platitudes. And how, prey tell, do we pay for this “free” government provided education and health care that you are no doubt in favor of. In case you haven’t noticed, social security, Medicare and just about any other fully-government funded program are broke. Doubling and tripling down on that strategy ain’t going to work. In fact, one of the reasons that college and grad school tuition is so absurdly high is government involvement. The federal subsidization of student loans Judy caused schools to raise tuition...

Countries spend on what they value- we spend on a huge war machine, others spend on education and healthcare

Look at our literacy rate and our quality of healthcare versus any country in western Europe or other "First World" countries

We've been at war pretty much my whole adult life, and where is the benefit? It's not the troops who benefit, or get rich- I know that first hand. Maybe you want to continue to enrich defense contractors and insurance companies- I don't.

These aren't easy issues, and there are no easy solutions. Name calling isn't going to fix anything.

 

[Art]

So Alabama is paying as much for their athletic facilities, as it will cost to fund this initiative.

Yeah, that makes sense.

NYU has no football team so they had to find somewhere else to spend the money.

 

[Big 0]

One of the reasons that medical school tuition is so expensive is that just like Penn State, the states are providing less and less support to universities and medical schools. The universities and medical schools tuitions are reaching the level of private schools. When I attended Penn State, my costs were approximately $2500 per year for tuition, room and board for a barely out of state student (lived 8 miles from the PA border). This amount is about equal to $8500 today. My last medical school tuition bill was $2000 for a semester, but that was at the cheapest in state medical school in Ohio, and why I chose to go there although I was also accepted elsewhere. Tuition had started from around $2000 per year and by the time I had graduated 4 years later had doubled. So at that time, tuition at my last year’s med school maximum would would be equivalent to about $9500 today. I paid for three quarters of my undergraduate and med school costs myself (including taking out a $5000 student loan) as my parents could not afford to support me more as I had one sister in medical school and another in undergrad school that they had to foot the bill for.

The costs to go to medical school are outrageous anymore, but likely a factor of the lack of government support for the schools. I saw in the article I read about NYU that some subspecialties were making $573K per year and primary care $220-260K per year, but they did not give their methodology for determining those numbers, because I can tell you realistically those are gross overestimates. Those numbers are probably practice gross per physician before overhead costs are factored in (malpractice insurance, employee overhead, office space rent, etc.). This is why there is not much meat on the bone left to pay off student loans. You also must remember physicians typically work more than 40 hours per week (I worked close to 60 hours per week over my career) and also work weekends, holidays and nights (call or otherwise). There is little opportunity to do anything else to have another source of income to help pay off student loans.

To comment on something else in this thread, when I applied to medical school, only about 30% or slightly less were accepted. The backup plan in those days was to go to dental school or veterinary school. But even back then, it was very difficult to get into vet school due to the significant lack in the number of schools. For some reason 17 sticks in my mind, but I could be wrong. However, I knew two PSU students accepted to vet school who were in one of my upper level biology classes. These students, college of agriculture majors, were not even close to the same level academically as those who were college of science majors in the same class. The TA’s who taught the lab (physiology grad students who I worked with doing research) couldn’t believe they had been accepted into professional school and were barely passing the course at a D level. I don’t know if there was the same level of competition for a spot in medical school versus vet school back, but since I didn’t apply to dental or vet school I have no knowledge of the difficulty trying to get into one of these professional schools.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

The kids I knew who got into vet school would easily have gotten into med school. Part of it was, as you say, the sheer number of vet schools was small. But those kids were easily just as academically accomplished as the kids who got into med school. There's a lot more vet schools these days. At the time, I remember thinking that I had no chance to get into vet school, but I didn't sweat getting into med school at all. That might have been misguided, but that was my impression at the time.

 

[83wuzme]

Anybody ever wonder why postgraduate tuition increases have dramatically outpaced inflation over the last 30 - 40 years ?

 

[Frabjous]

Here come the liberals with their platitudes. And how, prey tell, do we pay for this “free” government provided education and health care that you are no doubt in favor of. In case you haven’t noticed, social security, Medicare and just about any other fully-government funded program are broke. Doubling and tripling down on that strategy ain’t going to work. In fact, one of the reasons that college and grad school tuition is so absurdly high is government involvement. The federal subsidization of student loans Judy caused schools to raise tuition...

It’s pray tell, unless you are suggesting we turn over Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, etc., to the predators. And who, pray tell, is Judy?

 

[bdgan]

Countries spend on what they value- we spend on a huge war machine, others spend on education and healthcare

Look at our literacy rate and our quality of healthcare versus any country in western Europe or other "First World" countries

I somewhat agree but I don't think you're looking at things objectively.

We spend more on defense because that was part of the deal after WWII. Germany, Japan, etc cut way back and the U.S. became the defender of the free world. Today those countries are happy to let the U.S. carry the largest portion of responsibility. It would be nice if other (NATO) countries pulled their weight so we could do less. Alternatively we could simply cut back $200-$300b per year and trust that nobody would mess with us or our allies. I think that might be a little naive.

Wrt education, the U.S. already spends more per student than any other major OECD country. The problem isn't spending. It's unfair to say that the U.S. doesn't value education. There are other factors, including that we have a larger percentage of minorities/immigrants. We also spend a lot more on healthcare than any other OECD country. Our system isn't working very well. We could debate if we need a more capitalistic or a more socialistic approach but you cannot fairly claim that we don't spend enough. That's flat out wrong.

 

[Nitt1300]

I somewhat agree but I don't think you're looking at things objectively.

We spend more on defense because that was part of the deal after WWII. Germany, Japan, etc cut way back and the U.S. became the defender of the free world. Today those countries are happy to let the U.S. carry the largest portion of responsibility. It would be nice if other (NATO) countries pulled their weight so we could do less. Alternatively we could simply cut back $200-$300b per year and trust that nobody would mess with us or our allies. I think that might be a little naive.

Wrt education, the U.S. already spends more per student than any other major OECD country. The problem isn't spending. It's unfair to say that the U.S. doesn't value education. There are other factors, including that we have a larger percentage of minorities/immigrants. We also spend a lot more on healthcare than any other OECD country. Our system isn't working very well. We could debate if we need a more capitalistic or a more socialistic approach but you cannot fairly claim that we don't spend enough. That's flat out wrong.

I agree- we spend too much on healthcare already. It's where we spend it that's the problem. How many people who never see a patient are employed by the insurance industry, billing and coding personal in hospitals and doctor's offices? None of that expense does anything to make people well, it's just useless overhead.

 

[blion72]

Getting into NYU's med school just got a whole lot harder.

Anyhow, unlike law school, it is very very very expensive to run a med school. I don't think many schools have the elite donors that NYU has and can pull this off.

given this funding - the only acceptances will be the students with perfect MCAT scores with 4.0 GPAs in top STEM majors. too competitive for the average. it may turn them into the top school in the country.

 

[Art]

given this funding - the only acceptances will be the students with perfect MCAT scores with 4.0 GPAs in top STEM majors. too competitive for the average. it may turn them into the top school in the country.

Admissions to NYU Med are already extraordinarily competitive, less than 2% of applicants are admitted and average MCAT score is above 520 (528 is perfect) , and certainly will become more so. Admissions will not be limited to people with STEM degrees by any means.