On the Verge at 49/57

ss7

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Meaning what the math said was his minimum weight (weight at 5% bodyfat) at his certification weigh-in.

If the math said his min weight is 149.1 to 157.0, hen he's certified at 157. If his min is 157.1, then his cert = 165.
What is "the math" that's involved?

Do they weigh in and measure body fat %, do some calculations to figure out what weight would be at 5% body fat and that's the cert weight?
 

SpikingWhamos

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Aug 26, 2015
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Meaning what the math said was his minimum weight (weight at 5% bodyfat) at his certification weigh-in.

If the math said his min weight is 149.1 to 157.0, hen he's certified at 157. If his min is 157.1, then his cert = 165.

I'll just say that there's always a bit of confusion vs that "lowest possible weight" from the certification and *actual weight class at time of certification*.

There's always confusion early in the season when, for example, Starocci shows up on Track as a 184 because his actual weight at the time is between 174.1 and 184. He's allowed to descend to a weight, but doesn't currently weigh that.

It was never clear to me, at least, which we were talking about with Berge.
 
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RoarLions1

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What is "the math" that's involved?

Do they weigh in and measure body fat %, do some calculations to figure out what weight would be at 5% body fat and that's the cert weight?
Pretty much. There are 3 different ways to measure body fat, any of the 3 acceptable.

Urine specific gravity is used to determine hydration level. If this is a fail, there is no weighing and no body fat measurement. Wrestler must come back the next day.

The "cert weight" will actually be a weight class. The math gives LAW (Lowest Allowable Weight).
 

El-Jefe

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I'll just say that there's always a bit of confusion vs that "lowest possible weight" from the certification and *actual weight class at time of certification*.

There's always confusion early in the season when, for example, Starocci shows up on Track as a 184 because his actual weight at the time is between 174.1 and 184. He's allowed to descend to a weight, but doesn't currently weigh that.

It was never clear to me, at least, which we were talking about with Berge.
Track confuses the matter by posting those weights at time of certification, which really are irrelevant.

It would be better to either post the cert weight or post a weight range. (The cert weights are paywalled on Track.)

Maybe they have a good reason for not doing this, no idea what that would be. It's not like cert weights are gonna drive up subscriptions.
 
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CJFisJoePaII

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McSorley, I recommend strongly going with the El-Jefe post.

Only piece missed was being fully hydrated at the certification weigh-in.

How do they measure "fully hydrated". I've heard this referenced before, but not familiar with it as weight certification and weight descent rules came long after my time. Really curious how they measure it though.
 

HAMMER167

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How do they measure "fully hydrated". I've heard this referenced before, but not familiar with it as weight certification and weight descent rules came long after my time. Really curious how they measure it though.
At weight certification The certifier does litmus test pass/fail of urine. If fail can’t weigh for the test
 

CJFisJoePaII

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I'll just say that there's always a bit of confusion vs that "lowest possible weight" from the certification and *actual weight class at time of certification*.

There's always confusion early in the season when, for example, Starocci shows up on Track as a 184 because his actual weight at the time is between 174.1 and 184. He's allowed to descend to a weight, but doesn't currently weigh that.

It was never clear to me, at least, which we were talking about with Berge.

Pretty sure it was important that Brady certified at 65 (i.e., somewhere between 157.1 and 165.0), because I think you're only permitted to drop one weight-class from your Cert Weight.... although I could be wrong about that as the rules are somewhat complex and I'm not representing myself as any kind of expert on them. In any event, I think it was important that Brady at least Cert at 165 if he wanted to potentially wrestle 157 (i.e., wanted to wrestle immediately [at 65], but still have the option of going to 57 if he decided to).
 

El-Jefe

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Pretty sure it was important that Brady certified at 65 (i.e., somewhere between 157.1 and 165.0), because I think you're only permitted to drop one weight-class from your Cert Weight.... although I could be wrong about that as the rules are somewhat complex and I'm not representing myself as any kind of expert on them. In any event, I think it was important that Brady at least Cert at 165 if he wanted to potentially wrestle 157 (i.e., wanted to wrestle immediately [at 65], but still have the option of going to 57 if he decided to).
The rule is extremely simple for those who know the definition of the word "minimum."

For those who don't or who like to bluster, life in general gets harder.
 

RoarLions1

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For a deeper dive, this provides some good information:

https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/330574
Thanks for the article. It seems to focus on the validity (error/accuracy) of the body fat tests, and the variability between individuals (large vs small people, race, etc.). I guess all that is true, but it doesn't say one single word about what is GOOD about the Certification process, which comparing to what existed pre-1997 is dramatic.

Plus, the NCAA didn't just create the math behind certing, it also created rules and conditions that in my younger days did not exist.
Here's some of those changes;
No use of laxatives, emetics, self-induced vomiting, hot rooms, hot boxes and steam rooms. No using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose, on or off campus. No diuretics at any time. Regardless of purpose the use of vapor-impermeable suits or any similar devices or material used for weight loss is prohibited. Artificial means of rehydration (intravenous hydration) are prohibited. The wrestling practice facility must be kept at a temperature not to exceed 80 degrees Fahrenheit at the start of practice. THE CHANGES WERE MASSIVE.

Not against tweaking/changing rules as the science changes, but there's a lot more to the changes in the late-90's than most know.
 

KCLion

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Thanks for the article. It seems to focus on the validity (error/accuracy) of the body fat tests, and the variability between individuals (large vs small people, race, etc.). I guess all that is true, but it doesn't say one single word about what is GOOD about the Certification process, which comparing to what existed pre-1997 is dramatic.

Plus, the NCAA didn't just create the math behind certing, it also created rules and conditions that in my younger days did not exist.
Here's some of those changes;
No use of laxatives, emetics, self-induced vomiting, hot rooms, hot boxes and steam rooms. No using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose, on or off campus. No diuretics at any time. Regardless of purpose the use of vapor-impermeable suits or any similar devices or material used for weight loss is prohibited. Artificial means of rehydration (intravenous hydration) are prohibited. The wrestling practice facility must be kept at a temperature not to exceed 80 degrees Fahrenheit at the start of practice. THE CHANGES WERE MASSIVE.

Not against tweaking/changing rules as the science changes, but there's a lot more to the changes in the late-90's than most know.
I would never made weight. I was the in the wide open 60s and 70s.
 

Random4598375

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Thanks for the article. It seems to focus on the validity (error/accuracy) of the body fat tests, and the variability between individuals (large vs small people, race, etc.). I guess all that is true, but it doesn't say one single word about what is GOOD about the Certification process, which comparing to what existed pre-1997 is dramatic.

Plus, the NCAA didn't just create the math behind certing, it also created rules and conditions that in my younger days did not exist.
Here's some of those changes;
No use of laxatives, emetics, self-induced vomiting, hot rooms, hot boxes and steam rooms. No using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose, on or off campus. No diuretics at any time. Regardless of purpose the use of vapor-impermeable suits or any similar devices or material used for weight loss is prohibited. Artificial means of rehydration (intravenous hydration) are prohibited. The wrestling practice facility must be kept at a temperature not to exceed 80 degrees Fahrenheit at the start of practice. THE CHANGES WERE MASSIVE.

Not against tweaking/changing rules as the science changes, but there's a lot more to the changes in the late-90's than most know.
Wow, what's next? No chewing gum and spitting?
 

82bordeaux

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Thanks for the article. It seems to focus on the validity (error/accuracy) of the body fat tests, and the variability between individuals (large vs small people, race, etc.). I guess all that is true, but it doesn't say one single word about what is GOOD about the Certification process, which comparing to what existed pre-1997 is dramatic.

Plus, the NCAA didn't just create the math behind certing, it also created rules and conditions that in my younger days did not exist.
Here's some of those changes;
No use of laxatives, emetics, self-induced vomiting, hot rooms, hot boxes and steam rooms. No using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose, on or off campus. No diuretics at any time. Regardless of purpose the use of vapor-impermeable suits or any similar devices or material used for weight loss is prohibited. Artificial means of rehydration (intravenous hydration) are prohibited. The wrestling practice facility must be kept at a temperature not to exceed 80 degrees Fahrenheit at the start of practice. THE CHANGES WERE MASSIVE.

Not against tweaking/changing rules as the science changes, but there's a lot more to the changes in the late-90's than most know.
My decent(no sense correcting the spelling since @RoarLions1 already preserved it in a quote!) program is the late 70s-early 80s:

use of laxatives - check
hot rooms, hot boxes and steam rooms. - check
using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose - check
use of vapor-impermeable suits used for weight loss - generally 2 per practice
The wrestling practice facility must be kept at a temperature not to exceed 80 degrees - can't recall it ever being below 80

I barely got out alive!
 

RoarLions1

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My decent program is the late 70s-early 80s:

use of laxatives - check
hot rooms, hot boxes and steam rooms. - check
using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose - check
use of vapor-impermeable suits used for weight loss - generally 2 per practice
The wrestling practice facility must be kept at a temperature not to exceed 80 degrees - can't recall it ever being below 80

I barely got out alive!
That's a decent descent program ;) :).
 

82bordeaux

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That's a decent descent program ;) :).
giphy.gif
 

CJFisJoePaII

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My decent(no sense correcting the spelling since @RoarLions1 already preserved it in a quote!) program is the late 70s-early 80s:

use of laxatives - check
hot rooms, hot boxes and steam rooms. - check
using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose - check
use of vapor-impermeable suits used for weight loss - generally 2 per practice
The wrestling practice facility must be kept at a temperature not to exceed 80 degrees - can't recall it ever being below 80

I barely got out alive!

The thing I remember most days leading into weigh-ins was jogging in the shower room in a rubber sweat-suit with all of the showers turned on full hot.

Also remember taking salt tablets - anyone else remember those?
 
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nerfstate

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No using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose, on or off campus.
This one seems like a rule that is not broadly observed/enforced. Just folks hedging their bets? Didn't Spencer Lee once talk about hanging out in a Sauna during the season or something? I feel like maybe some of our guys have too. Just curious if you or anyone else knows how much these rules are actually monitored/enforced. I think for the most part, they are good changes--though Sauna's are healthy for many reasons too.
 

KCLion

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My decent(no sense correcting the spelling since @RoarLions1 already preserved it in a quote!) program is the late 70s-early 80s:

use of laxatives - check
hot rooms, hot boxes and steam rooms. - check
using a sauna during the season at any time and for any purpose - check
use of vapor-impermeable suits used for weight loss - generally 2 per practice
The wrestling practice facility must be kept at a temperature not to exceed 80 degrees - can't recall it ever being below 80

I barely got out alive!
Sleeping in the impermeable with sweats to draw the moisture - CHECK
 

Random4598375

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Sleeping in the impermeable with sweats to draw the moisture - CHECK
I did the opposite - I slept nearly naked in the cold with no covers and a fan on to force my body to generate heat throughout the whole night. That would maximize burning actual weight instead of just dehydration. The dehydration techniques were just for match day cuts.
 
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KCLion

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My coach to one of my teammates: ok, you’re about a pound and a half over. Be smart tonight and there is no reason that you won’t drift that weight overnight for tomorrow’s match.

Team mate: ok coach I should be fine.

next day; Coach says damn, you are 3 pounds over this morning what the heck did you eat?

team mate: nothing coach, I just had a glass of water, I was thirsty.

coach: what did you use for a glass, the bathtub?
 

McScoreley

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My coach to one of my teammates: ok, you’re about a pound and a half over. Be smart tonight and there is no reason that you won’t drift that weight overnight for tomorrow’s match.

Team mate: ok coach I should be fine.

next day; Coach says damn, you are 3 pounds over this morning what the heck did you eat?

team mate: nothing coach, I just had a glass of water, I was thirsty.

coach: what did you use for a glass, the bathtub?
Friends mom is a Dietician, one of her patients put on quite a bit of weight (40-50 pounds) after freshman year and went for an appointment to get the right nutritional plan to drop it

Patient: Yeah ... you know what they say about the freshman 15

Dietician: Did you repeat freshman year?
 
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raslen007

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The thing I remember most days leading into weigh-ins was jogging in the shower room in a rubber sweat-suit with all of the showers turned on full hot.

Also remember taking salt tablets - anyone else remember those?
Sucking on root beer barrels and spitting all day in classes.
 

raslen007

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We had a senior guy tell a freshman that if he lifted his scrotum while on the scale it would save him a 1/4 pound, he did it but failed 😟
 
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RoarLions1

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This one seems like a rule that is not broadly observed/enforced. Just folks hedging their bets? Didn't Spencer Lee once talk about hanging out in a Sauna during the season or something? I feel like maybe some of our guys have too. Just curious if you or anyone else knows how much these rules are actually monitored/enforced. I think for the most part, they are good changes--though Sauna's are healthy for many reasons too.
About the sauna rule...I can't say. The consequences of violating a rule and being reported can be the suspension of the wrestler for part of a season. Kid's may use the words sauna, hot tub, whirlpool, etc. interchangeably when they really mean hydrotherapy...which is perfectly fine.
 

James P. Whitters III

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About the sauna rule...I can't say. The consequences of violating a rule and being reported can be the suspension of the wrestler for part of a season. Kid's may use the words sauna, hot tub, whirlpool, etc. interchangeably when they really mean hydrotherapy...which is perfectly fine.
The hawkeyes use a sauna as in a sauna. Brands isn't much for NCAA rules.
 
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GogglesPaizano

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What makes anyone think Corby's second source is any better than his first?

IMO

Berge is our best option at either 165 or 157. That said:

From a nationals points perspective a Bulky Berge at a loaded 165 = a sucked down tired Berge at thinner 157.

Likewise Edsel at 165 = Barraclough at 157.

Despite perceptions it is going to be really close to a wash either way. I think I prefer Brady at 165 with another month to get in better shape at that weight.

It's Beau who we really need to deliver.
 

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