Noteworthy Results & Goldfish Games: Feb 16-20

js8793

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My comment was knowing how Murin wrestles which is very sound and the way Turk operates. I just thought it might be a little easier for Turk to hit on a big move. It's hard for guys to score on each other when they go against each other all the time. Do I think Murin is better wrestler, yes. My comment was more about how they match up against each other.
murin controlled their last match. also vince turk doesn't hit "big moves." he has one move, a double from space, which he doesn't hit successfully on anybody that good. he's an inferior version of murin. tough to score on, physical, but offensively limited. and murin is much better on the mat.
I changed my response to just posting the article from hawkcentral.com about how Murin barely edged out Turk in their wrestleoff. 5-4 on a riding point.
if you actually followed how that 5-4 match went, you'd know it wasn't as close as the score. murin was in total control, rode the tar out of him and then gave up 2 stall points late when the match was in hand. it wasn't that close.

if you think there is any chance of vince turk being the starter this year for any reason other than injury (and murin has struggled with injury this year), you're out of your mind. he has ZERO wins over D1 wrestlers this year. the big ten would lose murin's allocation and he would have to steal a spot. it's not happening. probably wishful thinking on your part knowing that he's not as good as murin and it would weaken iowa.
 
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McScoreley

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I know some of you guys might hope 149 is unsettled for Iowa because Turk being the guy at 149 for the postseason is way better for us lol.

He lost to his own teammate who is Iowa's 4th string 149 pounder. You don't get points for wrestling opponents tough. If Turk is their guy for the postseason that means Murin has injuries where he isn't even functional enough to wrestle anymore. They'll brace him up, inject him with something if it's that bad but it's Murin.

Also, as far as Turk's demeanor, he shot his own friend in the leg over a dispute of who's a better shot, did we really need to see how he wrestles to know he's kind of a hothead?
 

js8793

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I know some of you guys might hope 149 is unsettled for Iowa because Turk being the guy at 149 for the postseason is way better for us lol.

He lost to his own teammate who is Iowa's 4th string 149 pounder. You don't get points for wrestling opponents tough. If Turk is their guy for the postseason that means Murin has injuries where he isn't even functional enough to wrestle anymore. They'll brace him up, inject him with something if it's that bad but it's Murin.

Also, as far as Turk's demeanor, he shot his own friend in the leg over a dispute of who's a better shot, did we really need to see how he wrestles to know he's kind of a hothead?
lol we were on the same page here
 
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McScoreley

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lol we were on the same page here
It blows my mind this is a debate. Murin has 1 bad loss on the year to Manzona Bryant. He's beaten Parker (first match from injury), Yahya (3rd last year). I won't give credit him for wrestling Sasso tough since I just kind of dismissed Turk wrestling Gomez/Lovett tough.

He's been on the cusp of AA'ing for a while. Last year tbh I think he had a nice draw as the 12 seed but he also had mono, which is EXTREMELY debilitating obviously. This year, gun to my head, I'd say he will AA rather than he won't and even if he doesn't, he's a way better option than Vince Turk. Murin could wrestle Lovett at Big Tens and lose 8-2 (not likely lol) and he would still be a better option than Vince Turk.
 
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mcpat

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murin controlled their last match. also vince turk doesn't hit "big moves." he has one move, a double from space, which he doesn't hit successfully on anybody that good. he's an inferior version of murin. tough to score on, physical, but offensively limited. and murin is much better on the mat.

if you actually followed how that 5-4 match went, you'd know it wasn't as close as the score. murin was in total control, rode the tar out of him and then gave up 2 stall points late when the match was in hand. it wasn't that close.

if you think there is any chance of vince turk being the starter this year for any reason other than injury (and murin has struggled with injury this year), you're out of your mind. he has ZERO wins over D1 wrestlers this year. the big ten would lose murin's allocation and he would have to steal a spot. it's not happening. probably wishful thinking on your part knowing that he's not as good as murin and it would weaken iowa.
You said Murin beat Turk easily in wrestleoffs a few years ago. Iowa wrestling media wrote a story about how close their one-point wrestle-off match was. The headline was not much separates them. Just admit you were wrong like you’d expect from me.
 

mcpat

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It blows my mind this is a debate. Murin has 1 bad loss on the year to Manzona Bryant. He's beaten Parker (first match from injury), Yahya (3rd last year). I won't give credit him for wrestling Sasso tough since I just kind of dismissed Turk wrestling Gomez/Lovett tough.

He's been on the cusp of AA'ing for a while. Last year tbh I think he had a nice draw as the 12 seed but he also had mono, which is EXTREMELY debilitating obviously. This year, gun to my head, I'd say he will AA rather than he won't and even if he doesn't, he's a way better option than Vince Turk. Murin could wrestle Lovett at Big Tens and lose 8-2 (not likely lol) and he would still be a better option than Vince Turk.
It’s not being debated. When Iowa fans said there’s no challenge from Turk, it was accepted as fact. But JS had to take it further today and claim Murin beat Turk easily in a wrestle-off in 2018 when Iowa’s own wrestling media told a very different story.
 

WildTurk

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murin controlled their last match. also vince turk doesn't hit "big moves." he has one move, a double from space, which he doesn't hit successfully on anybody that good. he's an inferior version of murin. tough to score on, physical, but offensively limited. and murin is much better on the mat.

if you actually followed how that 5-4 match went, you'd know it wasn't as close as the score. murin was in total control, rode the tar out of him and then gave up 2 stall points late when the match was in hand. it wasn't that close.

if you think there is any chance of vince turk being the starter this year for any reason other than injury (and murin has struggled with injury this year), you're out of your mind. he has ZERO wins over D1 wrestlers this year. the big ten would lose murin's allocation and he would have to steal a spot. it's not happening. probably wishful thinking on your part knowing that he's not as good as murin and it would weaken iowa.
This
 

WildTurk

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It’s not being debated. When Iowa fans said there’s no challenge from Turk, it was accepted as fact. But JS had to take it further today and claim Murin beat Turk easily in a wrestle-off in 2018 when Iowa’s own wrestling media told a very different story.
The only way Turk would wrestle is because of injury. Murin is better and has been better for several years. Turk is not far behind but he is behind. Several years of familiarity wrestling Max will do that. What more do you need to know?
 
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Callthestall

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I will certainly admit that with all the Iowa input and a couple of PSU guys confirming those comments, I was wrong on my "opinion".
Not the first time that's happened.
 

mcpat

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Why is this even being debated?

If Murin is healthy **, he's going.

** this includes being stretchered onto the mat.
The only debate is over the statement that Murin beat Turk easily in wrestleoffs a few years ago. It went 4-3 Turk in 2017 and 5-4 Murin in 2018. The 2017 match went to OT and the 2018 match was won by a riding point.
 

RoarLions1

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The only debate is over the statement that Murin beat Turk easily in wrestleoffs a few years ago. It went 4-3 Turk in 2017 and 5-4 Murin in 2018. The 2017 match went to OT and the 2018 match was won by a riding point.
So. Someone's gotta stop this spiral into madness. Not sure why it matters that you "win" that argument.
 
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mcpat

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So. Someone's gotta stop this spiral into madness. Not sure why it matters that you "win" that argument.
Look, it shouldn’t. I get that. But when something is suggested that turns out to be wrong, sometimes people can’t just correct you; sometimes they have to do everything they can to make you feel as stupid as possible for even suggesting it. That’s the territory we were in. So when something is then later added for the sole purpose of making you seem even more stupid than before, and it turns out to be wrong, that’s how we end up here.
 
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PSU Mike

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The only debate is over the statement that Murin beat Turk easily in wrestleoffs a few years ago. It went 4-3 Turk in 2017 and 5-4 Murin in 2018. The 2017 match went to OT and the 2018 match was won by a riding point.
Try to find a balance in your life, man.
 
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Folkstylefan

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Eliminate the riding time make the top man work a turn at least try. 2 guys humping for 4-6 min is not folkstyle wrestling. The reference about zain is ridiculous, he worked on top most the time try to set up a turn. The best psu wrestler I’ve seen looking busy but not really doing anything was molinaro
 

johnstownsteel

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Look, it shouldn’t. I get that. But when something is suggested that turns out to be wrong, sometimes people can’t just correct you; sometimes they have to do everything they can to make you feel as stupid as possible for even suggesting it. That’s the territory we were in. So when something is then later added for the sole purpose of making you seem even more stupid than before, and it turns out to be wrong, that’s how we end up here.
I sympathize with your plight. Trust me, I can relate to the way you go about dealing with Hawk fans more than you probably think. Word of advice though, when fellow PSU fans start to grow tired of you making your argument it’s probably best to just stop. For some reason to me it always seems like PSU fans blame their own for long drawn out arguments and rarely the Hawk fans that come here. Its why you’ll hear …“why does it matter that you win that argument” while the Hawk fan isn’t asked the same question. Maybe it’s peoples way of asking us to be better hosts…
 

js8793

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The only debate is over the statement that Murin beat Turk easily in wrestleoffs a few years ago. It went 4-3 Turk in 2017 and 5-4 Murin in 2018. The 2017 match went to OT and the 2018 match was won by a riding point.
It was a pretty easy win man. he had a 5-2 lead and gave up 3 stall calls to make the match seem closer. he was never in danger of losing that match. the first time was when he was a true freshman. turk was expected to win that match comfortably as the heir to the spot. murin turned a lot of heads in that loss (which if i remember correctly was determined by a controversial stall in sv).

just take the L
 
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District four

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The only way Turk would wrestle is because of injury. Murin is better and has been better for several years. Turk is not far behind but he is behind. Several years of familiarity wrestling Max will do that. What more do you need to know?
Nothing you apparently are not reading the posts above
 
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McScoreley

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I don't care if it's either one they both aren't going to make that much noise
Murin kind of reminds me of 133 Luke Pletcher at this point. It's very boring to watch and you think he can lose every match but he usually figures out how to win. He can make the semis with a bunch of 3-2 wins probably. 133 was a deeper weight class also.
 

johnstownsteel

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It was a pretty easy win man. he had a 5-2 lead and gave up 3 stall calls to make the match seem closer. he was never in danger of losing that match. the first time was when he was a true freshman. turk was expected to win that match comfortably as the heir to the spot. murin turned a lot of heads in that loss (which if i remember correctly was determined by a controversial stall in sv).

just take the L
Not sure why it matters that you win this argument.

Btw, Assad STILL isn’t very good. Lol
 

Sportfan2017

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NOTEWORTHY RESULTS: District 6 AAA
* Asher Cunningham won the district 6 title at 120 lbs by beating top-seeded Casey Smith in the finals 4-1 after defeating 3rd seed Hunter Johnson 5-4 in the Semis
* Dalton Perry won the title at 126lbs. with a 23-5 TF over 2nd seeded Taylor Smith.
* Pierson Manville also won the title at 138 lbs with a 17-1 TF in the finals
* Jude Swisher won the title at 145lbs. with a 10-0 MD in the finals over Griffin Walitzer. Interestingly the bracket shows Swisher winning by fall in the Semis while trailing 13-1. I am guessing that may be a mistake.
* Nick Pavlechko won the title at 215 lbs. with a 14-5 MD over Anson Wagner in the finals after pinning his way to the finals
 
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CJFisJoePaII

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Willie is on the war path re: top stalling. He is looking for faster stall calls & stale mates if the top guy is not working for a pin. Even to the point of 15-30 second windows to call the action.

I agree with Willie on most things but not in this case. I absolutely think guys stall on top and should be reprimanded when it's obvious - so maybe the context is gratuitous stalling vs control & working for turns is the real point here. The thought of forcing Folk to look more like Free is not a good thing for us die hard Folk fans. What might 15 seconds stall warnings have done to the Zain years. How many pins, techs and majors might have been taken away by 'impatience' from an official.

There are always unintended consequences of rule changes, and I believe Willie's approach will have many, that may fundamentally change folk in profound ways.

My thoughts and what I see as a better solution:

1) Riding offensively is a 'skill' that only a minority of wrestlers can master well. How many kids fail to keep their opponent down even for 10 seconds, especially when the match is on the line late in the 3rd?

2) Gaining a riding time point is very well deserved reward for the demonstration of this skill.

3) Preventing an escape is difficult and justification for both riding time, and 1 point for achieving an escape.

4) Preventing a reversal is difficult and justification for both riding time, and 2 points for achieving a reversal.

5) Severely limiting or eliminating riding time would lead to an explosion of stale mates, many times in critical situations during a match. There would be much more catch and release and fewer long sequences that work towards a turn and back points. Not every elite wrestler can tilt most guys within 15 seconds like Spencer.

This would fundamentally alter folk in ways where it will much more resemble free. This combined with a change to the push out rule (which I tend to lean towards agreeing) while eliminating most top riding would nearly defacto make folk a kissing cousin to free. Not good from my POV.

Common ground:

1) Obvious top stalling needs to be called much more. Most fans agree here.

2) Moves used to control where no obvious effort to turn the opponent need to be warned or stale mate-ed more often and faster. Especially with defensive only applications where the bottom guy is rendered mute (this could mean things like the double thigh pry, and the bane of my existence double boots, applied just to ride out the 2nd period)....

However, I open the door to some latitude and yes I'll say it subjectivity for the refs.

1) Until a wrestler has 1:15 of RT earned a wrestler can stall from top all he wants. Riding is a skill and until the reward with a little time cushion has been earned you can work towards gaining that point with a 'lot' of latitude and protection from stalling.

2) once a wrestler has earned 1:15 of Riding time, his opponent losses the reward for an escape. Thus a free release is now possible. If a wrestler is demonstrating superiority from both neutral and on top, a catch and release should not earn only one net differential point in the transaction. This would make majors and techs more achievable for sure but those rediculous 29-14 type techs racing against the clock can be avoided, and rightly so in preference for more 17-2 alternatives. An vastly inferior wrestler should not avoid giving up a tech by 1 point simply because he is given a half dozen free points for free releases. I don't like 13-14 point majors where one guy does practically nothing the entire match but play out the clock

3) once an opponent gets the RT back below 1:15, escapes are once again rewarded.

4) so what does this preserve and where does the grey area and official's subjectivity come in? Let's use RBY-Fix as an example. The ability to ride out your opponent with the match on the line for that single point is extremely difficulty and once again a skill few can master. I will go so far too say RBY was the only wrestler in the country skilled enough to have accomplished that feat, against a world class opponent. To take away ones ability to control an oppponent to earn the victory is simply wrong. Thus where a match is either tied or within 1 point, the ref should not penalize the top wrestler for a rideout. This would apply only in the 3rd period.

With these few changes I think both the catch and release problem, the debate over 1 point escape vs 2-3 point takedown, and the ability to properly police stalling from on top can all be addressed to the benefit of maintaining the heritage of Folk.

Appropriaely rewarding skill in all three positions is what makes folk, folk.

Willie - I would like to hear your critique and thoughts. Really! I think we want the same thing but don't take a big piece of what makes folk, folk away in the process.

Folk is already a kissing cousin of Free given that it was created from International Olympic Wrestling.

I'm also a bit amused about all this "skill" being exhibited. I've watched match, after match where the majority of a wrestler's "riding time advantage" is made up of "riding time" gained by hanging onto a wrestler who has stood repeatedly and then the top wrestler just hangs on and ultimately drags them around the mat, ultimately pulling them off the mat OR pushes them around the mat and ultimately pushes them off the mat OR hangs on for dear life with bottom wrestler ultimately turning in on them creating a scramble situation and the two scramble around until the Ref stalemates the action. Most often the three things above are "rinse & repeat" for the majority of a period with each accounting for 20 to 30 seconds of "riding skill" as you call it (LMAO).

How any of this bullshit, which I see over and over in virtually every match I watch, has to do with "controlling your opponent" and exhibiting such overwhelming control that you are working toward, and threatening, a potential turn, I haven't a clue (I've seen countless rides where the top wrestler never even breaks the bottom wrestler down or where top wrestler just "spiral rides" and lays on bottom wrestler's back including when the bottom wrestler has stood to a tripod position - top wrestler just wraps himself on bottom wrestler like a sloth for interminable period with nothing called) because as far as I can tell, the top wrestler is being rewarded with "riding time" for the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE of what you are claiming - they are being awarded "riding time" for FAILING TO CONTROL the bottom wrestler and hanging onto the bottom wrestler WITH ZERO SKILLL being exhibited. Unless you consider pushing or pulling your opponent off the mat repeatedly, OR latching onto bottom wrestler like a sloth OR latching on in a ride that has devolved into a scramble waiting for Ref to stalemate the action repeatedly, a valuable "wrestling skill" worthy of rewarding.
 
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slushhead

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I don't remember Trenge as being a dirty wrestler but I do remember that match and it was beyond chippy. Not sure why. Bad day for Trenge,.
My read on that at the time (and I believe is suported by the video) was tht Trenge was ultra-sensitive about his eyes, and Edwards kept going there.
 
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82bordeaux

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My bad. I actually just posted the first one that said good. I didn’t even notice the BJ motion.
giphy.gif
 

Callthestall

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My read on that at the time (and I believe is suported by the video) was tht Trenge was ultra-sensitive about his eyes, and Edwards kept going there.
That was the issue. He had bad eyes and ended up wearing Protective Eyegear.
 

mcpat

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That was the issue. He had bad eyes and ended up wearing Protective Eyegear.
Trenge was a 3x AA (2x runner-up and a 3rd) who didn’t wrestle in the 2001 post-season due to a detached retinae, I’ve since read. We all know who he wrestled in the 2002 NCAA final.
 

nitlion6

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Trenge was a 3x AA (2x runner-up and a 3rd) who didn’t wrestle in the 2001 post-season due to a detached retinae, I’ve since read. We all know who he wrestled in the 2002 NCAA final.
Who beat him in the other final?
Hint, Berge.
 
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Callthestall

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Who beat him in the other final?
Hint, Berge.
Lost to Minnesota's Damion Hahn. Trenge was winning 4-3 ? and Hahn hit a duck under ? with about 5 seconds left in match. Trenge was one of the best wrestlers to come out of District 11. He was tough. Never won NCAA championship.
Lehigh had another PA kid get beat in finals that year, Troy Letters.
 
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js8793

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Lost to Minnesota's Damion Hahn. Trenge was winning 4-3 ? and Hahn hit a duck under ? with 5 seconds? left in match.
Lehigh had another PA kid get beat in finals that year, Troy Letters.
i think it was a lat drop. pretty wild to hit that in that situation. right up there with dan dennis in terms of gut-wrenching losses.
 

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