Noteworthy Results & Goldfish Games: Feb 16-20

mcpat

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Saw this posted on HR with comment that the wrong wrestler was called for stalling. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the rules can comment, but I think ADS was called for pushing Pletcher out of bounds and preventing him from circling in from outside the circle. The late shot makes the call questionable, but up until that point, it looked like correct call.
 
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NittanyChris

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I know a lot of people on this board don't like Turk because of his aggression. I think he's a guy you dislike when he's an opponent.If he's on our roster most people would like him for his "toughness".
I think he beats Murin.
Aggression, as I define it in wrestling, is someone with a high rate of offensive attacks and a relentless pace like Jason Nolf. A dirty, punk, wrestler is someone who is clubbing all the time, continuing to wrestle well out of bounds and trying to get takedowns 2.5 full seconds after the whistle blows and the opponent has clearly stopped wrestling like a Vince Turk. I like the former type of wrestler and dislike the latter, whether they’re on my team or not.
 

mcpat

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Saw this posted on HR with comment that the wrong wrestler was called for stalling. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the rules can comment, but I think ADS was called for pushing Pletcher out of bounds and preventing him from circling in from outside the circle. The late shot makes the call questionable, but up until that point, it looked like correct call.
Section 7. Stalling


Art. 2. Initiating Action. Action is to be maintained throughout the match by the wrestlers staying near the center of the mat and wrestling aggressively…

Art. 5. Neutral Position Stalling. When competing in the neutral position, neither wrestler may force an unnecessary restart by forcing an out-of-bounds call by the referee. Each wrestler shall attempt to work toward the center of the mat and continue wrestling…

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position. Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart.


Art. 11. Stalling — Offensive and Defensive Position. Offensive and defensive wrestlers shall make an attempt to sustain active wrestling and remain in the competition circle.

Section 8. Technical Violations

Art. 7. Baiting an Opponent. When a wrestler displays actions or behavior that are only an attempt to secure a stalling call, technical violation or other violation on the opponent, this shall be penalized as a technical violation.
 
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apoharrow

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Aggression, as I define it in wrestling, is someone with a high rate of offensive attacks and a relentless pace like Jason Nolf. A dirty, punk, wrestler is someone who is clubbing all the time, continuing to wrestle well out of bounds and trying to get takedowns 2.5 full seconds after the whistle blows and the opponent has clearly stopped wrestling like a Vince Turk. I like the former type of wrestler and dislike the latter, whether they’re on my team or not.
Has Penn State had a wrestler like Turk? I don't think it would be tolerated. Honestly asking if we have had one.
 
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Callthestall

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Aggression, as I define it in wrestling, is someone with a high rate of offensive attacks and a relentless pace like Jason Nolf. A dirty, punk, wrestler is someone who is clubbing all the time, continuing to wrestle well out of bounds and trying to get takedowns 2.5 full seconds after the whistle blows and the opponent has clearly stopped wrestling like a Vince Turk. I like the former type of wrestler and dislike the latter, whether they’re on my team or not.
Look, I don't like the after the whistle crap. I think I've seen him wrestle 3 times this year and the one match he was cheap. I haven't seen him enough to determine if that is his typical behavior.
One of my favorite wrestlers for Penn State the last 10 years was Matt Brown. Watch some of his matches with the hands and arms ,it wasnt
much different than what Turk does.
 

El-Jefe

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Look, I don't like the after the whistle crap. I think I've seen him wrestle 3 times this year and the one match he was cheap. I haven't seen him enough to determine if that is his typical behavior.
One of my favorite wrestlers for Penn State the last 10 years was Matt Brown. Watch some of his matches with the hands and arms ,it wasnt
much different than what Turk does.
Matt Brown shot a lot -- and not after the whistle.

Those are 2 significant differences from Turk.
 

GogglesPaizano

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Willie is on the war path re: top stalling. He is looking for faster stall calls & stale mates if the top guy is not working for a pin. Even to the point of 15-30 second windows to call the action.

I agree with Willie on most things but not in this case. I absolutely think guys stall on top and should be reprimanded when it's obvious - so maybe the context is gratuitous stalling vs control & working for turns is the real point here. The thought of forcing Folk to look more like Free is not a good thing for us die hard Folk fans. What might 15 seconds stall warnings have done to the Zain years. How many pins, techs and majors might have been taken away by 'impatience' from an official.

There are always unintended consequences of rule changes, and I believe Willie's approach will have many, that may fundamentally change folk in profound ways.

My thoughts and what I see as a better solution:

1) Riding offensively is a 'skill' that only a minority of wrestlers can master well. How many kids fail to keep their opponent down even for 10 seconds, especially when the match is on the line late in the 3rd?

2) Gaining a riding time point is very well deserved reward for the demonstration of this skill.

3) Preventing an escape is difficult and justification for both riding time, and 1 point for achieving an escape.

4) Preventing a reversal is difficult and justification for both riding time, and 2 points for achieving a reversal.

5) Severely limiting or eliminating riding time would lead to an explosion of stale mates, many times in critical situations during a match. There would be much more catch and release and fewer long sequences that work towards a turn and back points. Not every elite wrestler can tilt most guys within 15 seconds like Spencer.

This would fundamentally alter folk in ways where it will much more resemble free. This combined with a change to the push out rule (which I tend to lean towards agreeing) while eliminating most top riding would nearly defacto make folk a kissing cousin to free. Not good from my POV.

Common ground:

1) Obvious top stalling needs to be called much more. Most fans agree here.

2) Moves used to control where no obvious effort to turn the opponent need to be warned or stale mate-ed more often and faster. Especially with defensive only applications where the bottom guy is rendered mute (this could mean things like the double thigh pry, and the bane of my existence double boots, applied just to ride out the 2nd period)....

However, I open the door to some latitude and yes I'll say it subjectivity for the refs.

1) Until a wrestler has 1:15 of RT earned a wrestler can stall from top all he wants. Riding is a skill and until the reward with a little time cushion has been earned you can work towards gaining that point with a 'lot' of latitude and protection from stalling.

2) once a wrestler has earned 1:15 of Riding time, his opponent losses the reward for an escape. Thus a free release is now possible. If a wrestler is demonstrating superiority from both neutral and on top, a catch and release should not earn only one net differential point in the transaction. This would make majors and techs more achievable for sure but those rediculous 29-14 type techs racing against the clock can be avoided, and rightly so in preference for more 17-2 alternatives. An vastly inferior wrestler should not avoid giving up a tech by 1 point simply because he is given a half dozen free points for free releases. I don't like 13-14 point majors where one guy does practically nothing the entire match but play out the clock

3) once an opponent gets the RT back below 1:15, escapes are once again rewarded.

4) so what does this preserve and where does the grey area and official's subjectivity come in? Let's use RBY-Fix as an example. The ability to ride out your opponent with the match on the line for that single point is extremely difficulty and once again a skill few can master. I will go so far too say RBY was the only wrestler in the country skilled enough to have accomplished that feat, against a world class opponent. To take away ones ability to control an oppponent to earn the victory is simply wrong. Thus where a match is either tied or within 1 point, the ref should not penalize the top wrestler for a rideout. This would apply only in the 3rd period.

With these few changes I think both the catch and release problem, the debate over 1 point escape vs 2-3 point takedown, and the ability to properly police stalling from on top can all be addressed to the benefit of maintaining the heritage of Folk.

Appropriaely rewarding skill in all three positions is what makes folk, folk.

Willie - I would like to hear your critique and thoughts. Really! I think we want the same thing but don't take a big piece of what makes folk, folk away in the process.
 
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NittanyChris

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See my post above. If Turk was on Penn State I'd dislike him and if Jason Nolf was on Iowa, I'd admire him, like is a bit strong since he'd be Iowa.

Another example, I really disliked Gilman for his antics when he was on Iowa and I've remained consistent in my stance on him even after he came to NLWC. I will not root for him, don't like him.
 
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mcpat

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Willie is on the war path re: top stalling. He is looking for faster stall calls & stale mates if the top guy is not working for a pin. Even to the point of 15-30 second windows to call the action.

I agree with Willie on most things but not in this case. I absolutely think guys stall on top and should be reprimanded when it's obvious - so maybe the context is gratuitous stalling vs control & working for turns is the real point here. The thought of forcing Folk to look more like Free is not a good thing for us die hard Folk fans. What might 15 seconds stall warnings have done to the Zain years. How many pins, techs and majors might have been taken away by 'impatience' from an official.

There are always unintended consequences of rule changes, and I believe Willie's approach will have many, that may fundamentally change folk in profound ways.

My thoughts and what I see as a better solution:

1) Riding offensively is a 'skill' that only a minority of wrestlers can master well. How many kids fail to keep their opponent down even for 10 seconds, especially when the match is on the line late in the 3rd?

2) Gaining a riding time point is very well deserved reward for the demonstration of this skill.

3) Preventing an escape is difficult and justification for both riding time, and 1 point for achieving an escape.

4) Preventing a reversal is difficult and justification for both riding time, and 2 points for achieving a reversal.

5) Severely limiting or eliminating riding time would lead to an explosion of stale mates, many times in critical situations during a match. There would be much more catch and release and fewer long sequences that work towards a turn and back points. Not every elite wrestler can tilt most guys within 15 seconds like Spencer.

This would fundamentally alter folk in ways where it will much more resemble free. This combined with a change to the push out rule (which I tend to lean towards agreeing) while eliminating most top riding would nearly defacto make folk a kissing cousin to free. Not good from my POV.

Common ground:

1) Obvious top stalling needs to be called much more. Most fans agree here.

2) Moves used to control where no obvious effort to turn the opponent need to be warned or stale mate-ed more often and faster. Especially with defensive only applications where the bottom guy is rendered mute (this could mean things like the double thigh pry, and the bane of my existence double boots, applied just to ride out the 2nd period)....

However, I open the door to some latitude and yes I'll say it subjectivity for the refs.

1) Until a wrestler has 1:15 of RT earned a wrestler can stall from top all he wants. Riding is a skill and until the reward with a little time cushion has been earned you can work towards gaining that point with a 'lot' of latitude and protection from stalling.

2) once a wrestler has earned 1:15 of Riding time, his opponent losses the reward for an escape. Thus a free release is now possible. If a wrestler is demonstrating superiority from both neutral and on top, a catch and release should not earn only one net differential point in the transaction. This would make majors and techs more achievable for sure but those rediculous 29-14 type techs racing against the clock can be avoided, and rightly so in preference for more 17-2 alternatives. An vastly inferior wrestler should not avoid giving up a tech by 1 point simply because he is given a half dozen free points for free releases. I don't like 13-14 point majors where one guy does practically nothing the entire match but play out the clock

3) once an opponent gets the RT back below 1:15, escapes are once again rewarded.

4) so what does this preserve and where does the grey area and official's subjectivity come in? Let's use RBY-Fix as an example. The ability to ride out your opponent with the match on the line for that single point is extremely difficulty and once again a skill few can master. I will go so far too say RBY was the only wrestler in the country skilled enough to have accomplished that feat, against a world class opponent. To take away ones ability to control an oppponent to earn the victory is simply wrong. Thus where a match is either tied or within 1 point, the ref should not penalize the top wrestler for a rideout. This would apply only in the 3rd period.

With these few changes I think both the catch and release problem, the debate over 1 point escape vs 2-3 point takedown, and the ability to properly police stalling from on top can all be addressed to the benefit of maintaining the heritage of Folk.

Appropriaely rewarding skill in all three positions is what makes folk, folk.

Willie - I would like to hear your critique and thoughts. Really! I think we want the same thing but don't take a big piece of what makes folk, folk away in the process.
I like your idea of stalemating more quickly. I agree that riding is a skill. Potentially the answer could be more stalemates being called, thus providing the bottom wrestler the ability to escape on a restart before a “stall” ride is applied.

The downside to that would be longer matches and more breaks in the action.
 

onetime1

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Section 7. Stalling


Art. 2. Initiating Action. Action is to be maintained throughout the match by the wrestlers staying near the center of the mat and wrestling aggressively…

Art. 5. Neutral Position Stalling. When competing in the neutral position, neither wrestler may force an unnecessary restart by forcing an out-of-bounds call by the referee. Each wrestler shall attempt to work toward the center of the mat and continue wrestling…

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position. Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart.


Art. 11. Stalling — Offensive and Defensive Position. Offensive and defensive wrestlers shall make an attempt to sustain active wrestling and remain in the competition circle.

Section 8. Technical Violations

Art. 7. Baiting an Opponent. When a wrestler displays actions or behavior that are only an attempt to secure a stalling call, technical violation or other violation on the opponent, this shall be penalized as a technical violation.
If 7 was called like it reads It could get real interesting! An 11 has the 184 final match from last year written all over it
 

slushhead

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Has Penn State had a wrestler like Turk? I don't think it would be tolerated. Honestly asking if we have had one.
Like Turk in the respect of developing a habit of disregarding whistles and trying to playground fight when he gets frustrated that wrestling is not a technique that works for him in the sport of wrestling?

I can’t think of a PSU example that matches that precisely. The closest thing I can think of is individuals seemingly pushing buttons of a specific opponent to trigger him. Foe example, RBY playing w/ DeSanto’s toes. Joel Edwards playing with John Trenge’s face/eyes.

The latter example led to some OOB extracurriculars when, as I remember it, the overmatched Edwards defended a double-leg attempt at the edge by chest-wrapping and suplexing Trenge over his head and onto the hardwood. Trenge got pretty pissed and went after Edwards, who seemed totally calm under control…I thought I saw from my seat the slightest wrinke of a smirk from Edwards, like he knew he was getting oh-so-close to triggering Trenge to retaliate in a way that would get him DQ’d.

I wouldn’t say that was quite like Turk, though.
 

slushhead

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Look, I don't like the after the whistle crap. I think I've seen him wrestle 3 times this year and the one match he was cheap. I haven't seen him enough to determine if that is his typical behavior.
One of my favorite wrestlers for Penn State the last 10 years was Matt Brown. Watch some of his matches with the hands and arms ,it wasnt
much different than what Turk does.
Comparing Matt Brown to Vince Turk? Sorry, I gotta draw upon Johnny Mac again…

2e01ee9d1ad2b81a2fd43a575d974c069ae18a509067eb33222dfe9e143ced0e.jpg
 

mcpat

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Like Turk in the respect of developing a habit of disregarding whistles and trying to playground fight when he gets frustrated that wrestling is not a technique that works for him in the sport of wrestling?

I can’t think of a PSU example that matches that precisely. The closest thing I can think of is individuals seemingly pushing buttons of a specific opponent to trigger him. Foe example, RBY playing w/ DeSanto’s toes. Joel Edwards playing with John Trenge’s face/eyes.

The latter example led to some OOB extracurriculars when, as I remember it, the overmatched Edwards defended a double-leg attempt at the edge by chest-wrapping and suplexing Trenge over his head and onto the hardwood. Trenge got pretty pissed and went after Edwards, who seemed totally calm under control…I thought I saw from my seat the slightest wrinke of a smirk from Edwards, like he knew he was getting oh-so-close to triggering Trenge to retaliate in a way that would get him DQ’d.

I wouldn’t say that was quite like Turk, though.
 

District four

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Feb 16, 2018
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Section 7. Stalling


Art. 2. Initiating Action. Action is to be maintained throughout the match by the wrestlers staying near the center of the mat and wrestling aggressively…

Art. 5. Neutral Position Stalling. When competing in the neutral position, neither wrestler may force an unnecessary restart by forcing an out-of-bounds call by the referee. Each wrestler shall attempt to work toward the center of the mat and continue wrestling…

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position. Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart.


Art. 11. Stalling — Offensive and Defensive Position. Offensive and defensive wrestlers shall make an attempt to sustain active wrestling and remain in the competition circle.

Section 8. Technical Violations

Art. 7. Baiting an Opponent. When a wrestler displays actions or behavior that are only an attempt to secure a stalling call, technical violation or other violation on the opponent, this shall be penalized as a technical violation.
So Iowa is guilty on seven all of the time lol
 

Petch

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See my post above. If Turk was on Penn State I'd dislike him and if Jason Nolf was on Iowa, I'd admire him, like is a bit strong since he'd be Iowa.

Another example, I really disliked Gilman for his antics when he was on Iowa and I've remained consistent in my stance on him even after he came to NLWC. I will not root for him, don't like him.
Thomas Gilman is not the same person he was when at Iowa…in demeanor nor wrestling skill.

Don’t get me wrong…he was a great wrestler at Iowa, but had a few glaring issues that caused him to lose some key matches. Those issues are gone and all credit goes to him. Whether or not he would have figured that stuff out had he stayed at Iowa, no one knows…but something sure as hell clicked for him in the last couple of years at the NLWC.

Regarding his demeanor…it seems that he used to be much more angry and would lash out at times. He always wrestled tough and aggressive, but I think his head was sometimes his worst enemy. Listening to his interviews then and now are very telling. There is still that same grit and determination, but the anger seems to have been replaced by gratitude. He has a loving wife and child and his philosophical life perspective has most definitely changed. Again…this probably would have happened had he stayed in Iowa City, or wherever he ended up, but I am sure happy he is with the NLWC!
 

js8793

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Dec 4, 2018
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I think he beats Murin.
no lol
When I speculated about that recently, I was told by folks in the know that it wasn’t happening.
because it's dumb and you shared an article from before the season from a guy who does good work, but is the definition of a homer.

for those who don't remember, these two competed for a spot a few years ago. murin beat him soundly at wrestle offs and was the guy in the postseason, finishing r12 (higher than turk did the year before).
 

mcpat

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for those who don't remember, these two competed for a spot a few years ago. murin beat him soundly at wrestle offs

“Day Two of the Iowa wrestling team’s wrestle-offs wasn’t as revealing as Day One, but perhaps the biggest takeaway was that there isn’t much separating Max Murin and Vince Turk at 141 pounds.”
 
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Callthestall

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Comparing Matt Brown to Vince Turk? Sorry, I gotta draw upon Johnny Mac again…

2e01ee9d1ad2b81a2fd43a575d974c069ae18a509067eb33222dfe9e143ced0e.jpg
I'm just drawing comparison on how physical Brown was on his feet. He use to hammer guys. Refs warned him all the time for working the head. I have not seen Turk wrestle enough to know if he is constantly dirty.
 
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El-Jefe

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And yet a respected member of your board and Iowa wrestling blogger wrote before the season in his 149 preview that it would be a dice roll for who would start. My point in posting that recently was that it wasn’t such a far fetched thought when they alternated matches the last month of the season. It might have been wrong, but it wasn’t a crazy thought.
That article was so homertastic, it made Pravda blush.

It was like reading an NFL team's self-published offseason articles: "We just signed a former 5th round draft pick from 5 years ago off another team's practice squad, and he will compete for starting time."
 

mcpat

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That article was so homertastic, it made Pravda blush.

It was like reading an NFL team's self-published offseason articles: "We just signed a former 5th round draft pick from 5 years ago off another team's practice squad, and he will compete for starting time."
I changed my response to just posting the article from hawkcentral.com about how Murin barely edged out Turk in their wrestleoff. 5-4 on a riding point.
 

Callthestall

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I saw Trenge wrestle a lot in high school and college in person and on TV. He was physical but normally not cheap. If you know anything about Trenge he had bad eyes (retina issue?) . If someone went up by his eyes he would get nasty. Watch the video, Edwards was in his face numerous times. Trenge ended up wearing goggles and I believe in Cael's last match in finals he had eyewear on.
The most physical high school matches I ever saw in person was Parklands Trenge against Northampton Cristian Luciano, who was chiseled. I think Luciano had full ride intially to ASU. He got killed in road rage car accident.
 
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Cowbell Man

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I know a lot of people on this board don't like Turk because of his aggression. I think he's a guy you dislike when he's an opponent.If he's on our roster most people would like him for his "toughness".
I think he beats Murin.
Meh….I like aggression in the form of head snaps, not head slaps.
 
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mcpat

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I saw Trenge wrestle a lot in high school and college in person and on TV. He was physical but normally not cheap. If you know anything about Trenge he had bad eyes (retina issue?) . If someone went up by his eyes he would get nasty. Watch the video Edwards was in his face numerous times. Trenge ended up wearing goggles and I believe in Cael's last match in finals he had eyewear on.
The most physical high school matches I ever saw in person was Parklands Trenge against Northampton Cristian Luciano, who was chiseled. I think Luciano had full ride intially to ASU. He got killed in road rage car accident.
I’m glad you posted that; provides good context. And I don’t think anyone remembers Trenge as a dirty wrestler.
 

mcpat

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for those who don't remember, these two competed for a spot a few years ago. murin beat him soundly at wrestle offs
If you didn’t mean 2018 when Murin beat Turk 5-4 on a riding point, then maybe you meant the year before when Turk beat Murin 4-3?

 
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District four

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I'm just drawing comparison on how physical Brown was on his feet. He use to hammer guys. Refs warned him all the time for working the head. I have not seen Turk wrestle enough to know if he is constantly dirty.
Turk straight up throws lefts and rights it's ridiculous
 

donboy6499

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The evidence will always be in a person's posting history. Easy enough to do a search. Judge for yourself whether he's overall a quality poster or not.
He’s an Iowa fan who spends hours (or more than a few minutes) a day posting in an online message board of a rival school.

Regardless of the quality of his postings here, that isn’t an action of a well-adjusted person.
 

Callthestall

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Turk straight up throws lefts and rights it's ridiculous
The one match(Nebraska?) I agree with you. I didn't see that in the other 2 matches I watched involving him. He was just really heavy on head. He will never be compared to a slick smooth wrestler. If you or other posters have seen him throw the clubs in other matches I believe you.
 
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KCLion

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The one match(Nebraska?) I agree with you. I didn't see that in the other 2 matches I watched involving him. He was just really heavy on head. He will never be compared to a slick smooth wrestler. If you or other posters have seen him throw the clubs in other matches I believe you.
It was Turks match vs Gomez of Wisconsin that caused all the “stuff” that Required an Iowa apology.
 
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Callthestall

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no lol

because it's dumb and you shared an article from before the season from a guy who does good work, but is the definition of a homer.

for those who don't remember, these two competed for a spot a few years ago. murin beat him soundly at wrestle offs and was the guy in the postseason, finishing r12 (higher than turk did the year before).
My comment was knowing how Murin wrestles which is very sound and the way Turk operates. I just thought it might be a little easier for Turk to hit on a big move. It's hard for guys to score on each other when they go against each other all the time. Do I think Murin is better wrestler, yes. My comment was more about how they match up against each other.