Flying a huge bomber at treetop level was extremely dangerous and physically very taxing on the pilot and copilot. My understanding was that the incendiary bombing raids that occurred over Tokyo and other Japanese cities were usually carried out at around 5000 feet. That way, if a bomber was mortally wounded by ground fire or fighters the crew would at least have a chance to bale out. That would not be the case at treetop level.
Norden Bombsight: Put a bomb in a pickle barrel at 20,000 ft altitude.
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Flying a huge bomber at treetop level was extremely dangerous and physically very taxing on the pilot and copilot. My understanding was that the incendiary bombing raids that occurred over Tokyo and other Japanese cities were usually carried out at around 5000 feet. That way, if a bomber was mortally wounded by ground fire or fighters the crew would at least have a chance to bale out. That would not be the case at treetop level.
I hope you enjoy it. There are some comments on the Amazon site claiming that the accounts described in the book are so extreme that they are beyond belief (accusing the author of fabricating some of it). He did not. These accusations were made by readers who, clearly, have never served a day in deadly combat. Yes, reality can at times can seem incredulous, that, however, is especially true in times of war.
The account the author gives match quite well the same accounts of combat missions flown by my father and told to me in my teen years. The book was written years after my father passed away and my father had no contact with the author after landing in Sweden. The author was assigned to another internment area in Sweden.
You guys may appreciate the Amazon Prime series The Man in the High Castle - an alternate reality of the Germans and Japanese winning WW2 and splitting up the United States. It does have a bit of a sci-fi component to it as well of traveling across alternative realities, but it is really good overall.
The first year was alternate history. Now in season 3 it's morphed into full scifi
Thank you Ned, extraordinary clip by Gladwell, hope everyone visiting this thread tunes into the short video.
The Red Army badly needed the Allies bombing in front of their advance to Berlin. Dresden was chosen as the city to bomb due to its strategic location; acting as a transportation hub of German military movement. - Don't argue with me on this. I just watched it on TV/military documentary about the Allies-allied with Uncle Joe Stalin. He asked for the bombing to help his advance; he got it.
Dresden was bad, no doubt, but losses were about 1/3 of Tokyo's
Dresden
Tokyo
Tokyo was essentially a wooden city
Dresden was bad, no doubt, but losses were about 1/3 of Tokyo's
Dresden
Tokyo
Tokyo was essentially a wooden city
Unconfirmed reports put the death toll much higher.
If memory serves, the jet stream had yet to be discovered during the time the bombsight was being developed. So a guess would be that lack of such relevant knowledge didn't do much to aid the accuracy of higher-altitude missions later on.
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From Wiki:
Dresden:
Seeking to establish a definitive casualty figure, in part to address propagandisation of the bombing by far-right groups, the Dresden city council in 2005 authorized an independent Historian's Commission (Historikerkommission) to conduct a new, thorough investigation, collecting and evaluating available sources. The results were published in 2010 and stated that a minimum of 22,700[3] and a maximum of 25,000 people[4] were killed.
Tokyo:
The US Strategic Bombing Survey later estimated that nearly 88,000 people died in this one raid, 41,000 were injured, and over a million residents lost their homes. The Tokyo Fire Department estimated a higher toll: 97,000 killed and 125,000 wounded. The Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department established a figure of 83,793 dead and 40,918 wounded and 286,358 buildings and homes destroyed.[21] Historian Richard Rhodes put deaths at over 100,000, injuries at a million and homeless residents at a million.[22] These casualty and damage figures could be low; Mark Selden wrote in Japan Focus:
The figure of roughly 100,000 deaths, provided by Japanese and American authorities, both of whom may have had reasons of their own for minimizing the death toll, seems to be arguably low in light of population density, wind conditions, and survivors' accounts. With an average of 103,000 inhabitants per square mile (396 people per hectare) and peak levels as high as 135,000 per square mile (521 people per hectare), the highest density of any industrial city in the world, and with firefighting measures ludicrously inadequate to the task, 15.8 square miles (41 km2) of Tokyo were destroyed on a night when fierce winds whipped the flames and walls of fire blocked tens of thousands fleeing for their lives. An estimated 1.5 million people lived in the burned out areas.[21]
In his 1968 book, reprinted in 1990, historian Gabriel Kolko cited a figure of 125,000 deaths.[23] Elise K. Tipton, professor of Japan studies, arrived at a rough range of 75,000 to 200,000 deaths.[24] Donald L. Miller, citing Knox Burger, stated that there were "at least 100,000" Japanese deaths and "about one million" injured.[25]
The Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II,[26]greater than Dresden,[27] Hamburg, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events.
Why did the bombing of Dresden happen?
1) The city was in Nazi Germany and for this reason was a legitimate target for attack as the Allies were at war with Nazi Germany. ... Therefore, Dresden was bombed to show the Russians the awesome power of the Allies and to act as a warning to them not to stray from the agreements they had made at the war conferences.
It is kind of odd how people who profess to be outraged over our use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki don't seem to realize that far more people were killed by conventional bombs in both theaters of the war. Both sides slaughtered civilians without hesitation.
Mmmmmmmmmmm, pure conjecture IMO.
Uncle Joe, needed our bombing to soften up his Red Army's past. He asked for it: we granted his request.
Good stuff.
I never said Dresden was higher.
I think I said that unconfirmed reports had the Dresden death toal higher.
Dresden was of no strategic value to either side. No industry. The Germans wouldn't have defended it and the Red Army would have bypassed it.
Incorrect sir.
That is one argument made, about the bombing, but an incorrect one IMO.
You don't have to have a tank, gun, cannon, or other weapons in order to be considered a military target.
Dresden was a major transportation hub of military significance to the Germans. Thousands of German troops used Dresden to get from point A to point B. Food, shelter, storage, and many means of support were available in the city.
Therefore it WAS a target of military significance though bleeding hearts want you to believe otherwise IMO.
Here's a little known fact.
Berlin, the capital of Nazi Germany, was subject to 363 air raids during the Second World War.[1] It was bombed by the RAF Bomber Command between 1940 and 1945, by the USAAF Eighth Air Force between 1943 and 1945, and the French Air Force between 1944 and 1945 as part of the Allied campaign of strategic bombing of Germany. It was also attacked by aircraft of the Red Air Force, especially in 1945 as Soviet forces closed on the city. British bombers dropped 45,517 tons of bombs;[2] the Americans dropped 23,000 tons.
The total tonnage of the Red Army artillery barrage on Berlin during the battle was greater than the all of the bombs dropped on Berlin during the entire war.
Berlin, the capital of Nazi Germany, was subject to 363 air raids during the Second World War.[1] It was bombed by the RAF Bomber Command between 1940 and 1945, by the USAAF Eighth Air Force between 1943 and 1945, and the French Air Force between 1944 and 1945 as part of the Allied campaign of strategic bombing of Germany. It was also attacked by aircraft of the Red Air Force, especially in 1945 as Soviet forces closed on the city. British bombers dropped 45,517 tons of bombs;[2] the Americans dropped 23,000 tons.
The total tonnage of the Red Army artillery barrage on Berlin during the battle was greater than the all of the bombs dropped on Berlin during the entire war.
In 1943 40-60,000 casualties occurred in Hamburg during one week on bombing. It was a manufacturing site but the entire city was bombed
in what was called 'area bombing'. I have an friend from Hamburg who was 8 years old at the time and remembers running in the streets with the wind howling from the fire storm. There was no such concept in WWII of 'collateral
damage'..
in what was called 'area bombing'. I have an friend from Hamburg who was 8 years old at the time and remembers running in the streets with the wind howling from the fire storm. There was no such concept in WWII of 'collateral
damage'..
No sir.
You also have to remember; the Brits were chomping at the bit for the indiscriminate bombing of their cities and killing their people.
Total war = total war.
Sir, do you realize if we bomb the dams and levy's in North Vietnam, we flood their rice paddies; thereby severely limiting their ability to feed their army and consequently fight the war. We chose not to. Mistake!!
Is a rice paddy and a dam a military target; you be your sweet ass it is. And so is where they store the rice and anything that transports the rice.
True. And the reason the Russians adopted a different gauge track than the rest of Europe was to mitigate the logistics for another invasion.
Correct.
They even had their women fly 'as close to wooden planes' as possible for surveillance to avoid radar detection from what I've read and saw.
Just a little Ole commissioned Air Force 2nd Lt. From Gettysburg College AFROTC.
My Rank as an LTC came as an Army JAG.
So my knowledge about the Air Campaigns came from studies in AFROTC and on AD right after College
My only personal first hand military experience was in Navy destroyers.
Our family history includes 6 WW2 Vets, none of them was in the Air Force, but one was Army Air Corps and died in a B17- he was a tail gunner.
1. Thank you for serving sir.
2. Please share what you can with us.
3. Merry Christmas!
Actually it gave the defenders a lot more to hide behind. Monte Cassino earlier in the was was a good example.
You can still see, if you know where to look, battle damage in Berlin from WW II, usually on the back side of buildings. But it's getting less and less. Very common in East Berlin in 1973 and 1978--still there in 2005, but not as obvious.
