NCAA Seeding

RoarLions1

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Serious question. Now that the NCAA Championships are in the rear view mirror, what are your now 20-20 thoughts on the seedings? Please, any weight class individually, or overall. A specific wrestler or just in general. Let's just say I'm curious...thanks (and hoping for a post count higher than 2 🤣).
 

creamery freak

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Serious question. Now that the NCAA Championships are in the rear view mirror, what are your now 20-20 thoughts on the seedings? Please, any weight class individually, or overall. A specific wrestler or just in general. Let's just say I'm curious...thanks (and hoping for a post count higher than 2 🤣).
AD's seed at 133 was a head scratcher, as he took 3rd and should have been seeded 3rd. Made RBY'S road a little more difficult.
I still have a problem with Colton Shultz's seed because of him ducking Greg and getting the 2. There should be a loss not a reward for not wrestling. He also wrestled the final to not get embarrassed. Did he take 1 shot other than the desperation shots in the last 10 seconds? I think Greg was the 2nd best Heavyweight, just my opinion.
 

82bordeaux

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AD's seed at 133 was a head scratcher, as he took 3rd and should have been seeded 3rd. Made RBY'S road a little more difficult.
I still have a problem with Colton Shultz's seed because of him ducking Greg and getting the 2. There should be a loss not a reward for not wrestling. He also wrestled the final to not get embarrassed. Did he take 1 shot other than the desperation shots in the last 10 seconds? I think Greg was the 2nd best Heavyweight, just my opinion.
Based on the result, no coaches are going to hesitate to "duck" next year. It is the advantage of being outside the B1G and they are not going to give that advantage up willingly. But it won't matter next year for Greg because everyone will be trying to position themselves opposite him.
 

El-Jefe

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133 - DeSanto 5. So obviously the 3rd best at the weight.

157 - Berge 16, especially behind Young after winning 2x H2H only 2 weeks earlier, and behind Robb after Young beat Robb 8-1 at B10s.

157 - O'Connor 11. Huge winning streak, lost conference final by 3-2 to the NCAA 4 seed ... and dropped to 11?

165 - Hamiti 4. Finished 3rd at B10s, seeded ahead of Griffith. This is minor, wouldn't have dropped him below 5 or 6.

285 - Schultz 2. Talented enough to be in the discussion for that seed, but ducked both Kerk and Parris.

Wood and Parris both behind Hendrickson, though it worked out better for them.
 

mcpat

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I’d like to see them use mathematical formulas to guide the seedings but have people actually do it. Like basketball and RPI.
 

RoarLions1

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My apologies, as I didn't want to re-hash what was said before the tournament.

For example;
Re. DeSanto's seed, did it really impact where he ended? 3rd seems about right since he lost to Fix & RBY during the season.

Re. Schultz, the guy finished 2nd (his seed), beating Parris, and Wood along the way. What we don't know is how Kerkvliet would have done with a 2/3 seed. Like all, I'd have liked to find out, but beating Schultz isn't a given.

Re. Berge, while I also didn't like his seed before the tournament, Willitts and Robb-level guys are among those he had to beat to AA.

I loved the tourney, in all its glory, upsets and all. Nothing like it. Can't say the seeding impacted how I feel at all after the fact.
 

dunkej01

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I think there needs to be a human committee that gets a shot to adjust the seeds after the computer runs its initial cycle.

Such that the computer gives out pre seeds on Tuesday after conference weekend. Then a group of former coaches, wrestlers, wrestling Media, Condoleezza Rice, Ashton Kutcher and @CropDuster507 get to fine tune it.

With a final release by friday of that same week.
 

johnstownsteel

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I also like the idea of not announcing conference allocations for Nationals ahead of time. Too many Big 10ers forfeiting conference matches knowing they would get in anyway.
In a perfect world I’m on board. Coaches and programs have already proven they will do whatever they can by “working the system”. They will give and take :01 MFFs, they call each other and make deals about ranking their own guys higher in the coaches rankings, they duck matches that the fans are clamoring to see… yadda yadda yadda. Wonder how long it would be till they’re making phone calls to get the allocations that they aren’t suppose to know about.
 
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El-Jefe

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Definitely want to see some criteria tweaking. Some irrelevant and redundant stuff, some other good stuff missing.

Eliminate the Interns Coaches Poll. They don't follow all 33 guys, don't have time to accurately fill it in, and the coaches are known to use it for horse-trading.

Eliminate conference placement criteria. Why is Griffith losing comparisons to conference champs for losing to Wick? Silly.

Add bonus points to the Quality Wins metric.

Off the top of my head ...
 

El-Jefe

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I also like the idea of not announcing conference allocations for Nationals ahead of time. Too many Big 10ers forfeiting conference matches knowing they would get in anyway.
Maybe only allocate to the champ of each conference. Everybody else is an at-large.

At-large criteria are similar to seeding criteria, so it shouldn't take additional effort.

Won't solve all of the B10 MFFs -- a lot of them are getting into nationals regardless -- but will some.

Also count B10 MFFs as losses for NCAA seeding purposes.
 

El-Jefe

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Simplest solution (for us anyway): let @smalls103 seed the whole damn thing.

Like he did for Super 32, like he did for Son of Midlands, like he's doing now for NHSCAs, etc.

Certainly the NCAA can afford a case or two of Bud Heavy. Make it happen.
 

dunkej01

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I also like the idea of not announcing conference allocations for Nationals ahead of time. Too many Big 10ers forfeiting conference matches knowing they would get in anyway.
that would be something. No body knows so they all go balls out. Very interesting.
 

dunkej01

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Simplest solution (for us anyway): let @smalls103 seed the whole damn thing.

Like he did for Super 32, like he did for Son of Midlands, like he's doing now for NHSCAs, etc.

Certainly the NCAA can afford a case or two of Bud Heavy. Make it happen.
If they cant. We certainly can. Heck Ill even see it delivered to his new place.
 

STAND with PRIDE

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Sep 9, 2018
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Serious question. Now that the NCAA Championships are in the rear view mirror, what are your now 20-20 thoughts on the seedings? Please, any weight class individually, or overall. A specific wrestler or just in general. Let's just say I'm curious...thanks (and hoping for a post count higher than 2 🤣).
Get your own topics🤓
 

CropDuster507

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I think there needs to be a human committee that gets a shot to adjust the seeds after the computer runs its initial cycle.

Such that the computer gives out pre seeds on Tuesday after conference weekend. Then a group of former coaches, wrestlers, wrestling Media, Condoleezza Rice, Ashton Kutcher and @CropDuster507 get to fine tune it.

With a final release by friday of that same week.
Imagine a bracket with 33 BAD DRAWS...
 

McScoreley

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It actually would be smart to let Willie seed NCAAs but fans would go ballistic since everyone is convinced he's just a gigantic PSU homer
 

creamery freak

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I think there needs to be a human committee that gets a shot to adjust the seeds after the computer runs its initial cycle.

Such that the computer gives out pre seeds on Tuesday after conference weekend. Then a group of former coaches, wrestlers, wrestling Media, Condoleezza Rice, Ashton Kutcher and @CropDuster507 get to fine tune it.

With a final release by friday of that same week.
What if the top 3 or 4 wrestlers were seeded from each conference and the rest were pulled out of a hat at random? Oh wait. It would cut back on MFFing and place more importance on conference tournaments. I realize it would hurt the BIG. Maybe take season rankings and records into consideration and treat ducks like C Shultz as a loss. You could also treat each weight class differently by the strength in the conference as to whether they get 2, 3 or 4 guys seeded without going into the hat draw. Just an idea since the hat might help some of our guys versus the seeds they got. The big question is, would the hat draws be manipulated?
 
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El-Jefe

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What if the top 3 or 4 wrestlers were seeded from each conference and the rest were pulled out of a hat at random? Oh wait. It would cut back on MFFing and place more importance on conference tournaments. I realize it would hurt the BIG. Maybe take season rankings and records into consideration and treat ducks like C Shultz as a loss. You could also treat each weight class differently by the strength in the conference as to whether they get 2, 3 or 4 guys seeded without going into the hat draw. Just an idea since the hat might help some of our guys versus the seeds they got. The big question is, would the hat draws be manipulated?
SoCon, ACC, and Pac 12 wish their top 4 wrestlers could be seeded.
 
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ss7

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I think there needs to be a human committee that gets a shot to adjust the seeds after the computer runs its initial cycle.

Such that the computer gives out pre seeds on Tuesday after conference weekend. Then a group of former coaches, wrestlers, wrestling Media, Condoleezza Rice, Ashton Kutcher and @CropDuster507 get to fine tune it.

With a final release by friday of that same week.
Isn't this exactly what happens?

Basing this off my recollection of what was discussed here, but I thought the formula spits out the order and the seeding committee can move guys up or down 3 spots from there.

I'm sure there are some tweaks to be made, but the biggest change I'd like is to just make the whole thing completely transparent. Release the formula results and any changes the seeding committee made.
 

82bordeaux

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Isn't this exactly what happens?

Basing this off my recollection of what was discussed here, but I thought the formula spits out the order and the seeding committee can move guys up or down 3 spots from there.

I'm sure there are some tweaks to be made, but the biggest change I'd like is to just make the whole thing completely transparent. Release the formula results and any changes the seeding committee made.
Have you ever looked at the make up of the seeding committee? My wife could do better and she starts yelling "Bow and Arrow" when they're on their feet.
 

RoarLions1

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Isn't this exactly what happens?

Basing this off my recollection of what was discussed here, but I thought the formula spits out the order and the seeding committee can move guys up or down 3 spots from there.

I'm sure there are some tweaks to be made, but the biggest change I'd like is to just make the whole thing completely transparent. Release the formula results and any changes the seeding committee made.
I've often said that the Big Ten and NCAA Wrestling Committees should be more transparent, in all sports.

I don't believe the NCAA Committee moves wrestlers up or down anymore. That is a practice that happened prior to 2014 (I believe) when wrestlers from the same conference, by rule, could not meet in the first round.
 

ss7

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Have you ever looked at the make up of the seeding committee? My wife could do better and she starts yelling "Bow and Arrow" when they're on their feet.
All the more reason to have their decisions (and impact) be made known to everyone.
 

Split shot

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Isn't this exactly what happens?

Basing this off my recollection of what was discussed here, but I thought the formula spits out the order and the seeding committee can move guys up or down 3 spots from there.

I'm sure there are some tweaks to be made, but the biggest change I'd like is to just make the whole thing completely transparent. Release the formula results and any changes the seeding committee made.
This right here would be a real good place to start. No where to hide.
 

ss7

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I've often said that the Big Ten and NCAA Wrestling Committees should be more transparent, in all sports.

I don't believe the NCAA Committee moves wrestlers up or down anymore. That is a practice that happened prior to 2014 (I believe) when wrestlers from the same conference, by rule, could not meet in the first round.
Here's an article that discusses the seeding process. Having re-read it, it looks like a wrestler can be "argued up or down" (in the words of Jason Borelli) if they are within 3 points (not 3 seeds) of another wrestler.
No idea if this is still true, but this is the best and most recent I found.
 
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El-Jefe

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Have you ever looked at the make up of the seeding committee?
They need more of it.

giphy.gif
 
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IwasAwful

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I don’t exactly know what it means, but at a relatively quick glance roughly 25 percent of this years All Americans were seeded outside the top 8 (21 of 80; again I didn’t put hours into this research so errors are to be expected). This info may mean the seeding process is flawed, or that seeding the NCAA’s is darn difficult.
 

PSU Mike

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I don’t exactly know what it means, but at a relatively quick glance roughly 25 percent of this years All Americans were seeded outside the top 8 (21 of 80; again I didn’t put hours into this research so errors are to be expected). This info may mean the seeding process is flawed, or that seeding the NCAA’s is darn difficult.
It means it wasn’t perfect.
 

El-Jefe

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I don’t exactly know what it means, but at a relatively quick glance roughly 25 percent of this years All Americans were seeded outside the top 8 (21 of 80; again I didn’t put hours into this research so errors are to be expected). This info may mean the seeding process is flawed, or that seeding the NCAA’s is darn difficult.
I dumped it all into Excel, and that's not what I got at all.
59/80 AAs were seeded top 8
17/80 AAs were seeded 9-12

Combined that's 76/80 seeded within 1 win of the podium. That strikes me as really good.

Details below -- for example, every champ was seeded top 2.

Seed​
Placement
1​
2​
3​
4​
5​
6​
7​
8​
9-1213-1617-24Grand Total
1
7​
3​
10​
2
1​
3​
1​
2​
1​
1​
1​
10​
3
2​
2​
1​
2​
1​
1​
1​
10​
4
2​
1​
2​
1​
1​
1​
2​
10​
5
3​
1​
1​
2​
2​
1​
10​
6
1​
4​
2​
1​
1​
1​
10​
7
1​
2​
1​
1​
1​
3​
1​
10​
8
1​
8​
1​
10​
Grand Total
10​
9​
10​
8​
6​
7​
5​
4​
17​
2​
2​
80​


Also: only 9/80 with a top 8 seed failed to reach R12. Again, that strikes me as good seeding.