My challenge to the Paterno haters and their BS logic

[Madsol]

This. He didn't recruit, he didn't call plays and he barely did anything but keep the schedule moving during practice and ask to run the ISO every now and then. He called his starting QB "Blocker" instead of Bolden. He had to sit up in the booth and ask what the hell was going on during games.

Even if all that is true, the program was far from being in shambles when he was fired. So he gets no credit for the fact that in spite of all of the limitations you listed PSU was 8-1, in first place, and in line to sign a top 10 recruiting class when he was fired, yet gets all of the blame for the program being in shambles. For someone who prides himself on thinking he's the smartest guy in the room, your position is totally illogical...and you don't even recognize it.

 

[Osprey Lion]

The record is what the record is. anything else is whining.

Whining is something with which you are intimately familiar. "The record is what
the record is." and credit should go where credit is due. Members of the cult
have convinced themselves that PSU's record had some connection to Paterno.
You did as much coaching during those years as Paterno.

 

[harbest]

I recall having a recruiting class of 11 or something like that during the Dark Years. How the f*** did that happen?

Four words: Jay Paterno recruiting coordinator. One of those years, linebacker u starting 3 walk ons at linebacker.

 

[pandaczar12]

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Wow, so this genius AJ Weberman on twitter can't be bothered to research the facts about how Paterno properly handled the JS issue... but can research all sorts of crazy mob theories about JVP?

 

[Osprey Lion]

Arguing opinion against documented facts doesn't seem like sanity.

Documented facts? That's cult talk.

 

[Obliviax]

Whining is something with which you are intimately familiar. "The record is what
the record is." and credit should go where credit is due. Members of the cult
have convinced themselves that PSU's record had some connection to Paterno.
You did as much coaching during those years as Paterno.

So, there was no need to fire him then? Agree on that.

 

[Obliviax]

Documented facts? That's cult talk.

check the records

 

[getmyjive11]

what is that I hear? Sounds like a lot of whining.

You know all of that is accurate.

 

[getmyjive11]

Even if all that is true, the program was far from being in shambles when he was fired. So he gets no credit for the fact that in spite of all of the limitations you listed PSU was 8-1, in first place, and in line to sign a top 10 recruiting class when he was fired, yet gets all of the blame for the program being in shambles. For someone who prides himself on thinking he's the smartest guy in the room, your position is totally illogical...and you don't even recognize it.

8-1 was against the little sisters of the poor (outside of Bama). His assistants should get a ton of credit. He is lucky that they were loyal. He was lucky to have guys with HC experience on both sides of the ball.

 

[Madsol]

Whining is something with which you are intimately familiar. "The record is what
the record is." and credit should go where credit is due. Members of the cult
have convinced themselves that PSU's record had some connection to Paterno.
You did as much coaching during those years as Paterno.

So Paterno had nothing to do with the program yet he was running it into the ground? Again, I realize we're talking about high level logic that likely zipped right past you but even a dim bulb like you can surely see the internal contradiction in your position, can't you?

 

[Madsol]

8-1 was against the little sisters of the poor (outside of Bama). His assistants should get a ton of credit. He is lucky that they were loyal. He was lucky to have guys with HC experience on both sides of the ball.

At least you and Osprey are consistent. Consistently wrong, but consistent nonetheless. So he had nothing to do with the program and any success was all due to his assistants yet he should have resigned/been fired years earlier because of all the damage his non-involvement was doing to the program. Is that about right?

 

[Zenophile]

A note of clarification on the topics being discussed:

Whether or not Joe should have retired prior to 2011 certainly seems to be a valid topic for message board fodder (especially in the off-season). Debate away.

But it is absolutely a separate and distinct topic from the issue of how the board chose to terminate his employment in response to the scandal. The manner in which they dealt with Paterno is and will forever be an egregious failure of leadership by the board.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Four words: Jay Paterno recruiting coordinator. One of those years, linebacker u starting 3 walk ons at linebacker.

Jay wasn't to blame for the small class. IIRC the following year PSU had a class of 29 or so and they had a tiny graduating class...could be wrong there? That would be an average of 20 over 2 year which isn't out of the norm for schools that didn't oversign annually like the SEC was during that period..

Jay wasn't a great RC, but PSU also had a HC later on in his career who didn't get out in May and only visited commits after January...and that even stopped. Joe was a great coach but if people are going to say he was all in the last decade, they are just trying to convince themselves. I remember what a big deal was made that he went to visit JK and DWill in the spring as he had not done it in years....but he had just had his 4th losing season in 5 years. Landed both. I remember him visiting Pryor as well and it was another big deal.....yet other HC's were still doing this as it is the norm. To be honest it's the biggest fair criticism of Joe that he didn't put fourth the effort in recruiting, but he was also 75+ years of age. That milk is spilt and had been dry for a while now.

 

[Obliviax]

So Paterno had nothing to do with the program yet he was running it into the ground? Again, I realize we're talking about high level logic that likely zipped right past you but even a dim bulb like you can surely see the internal contradiction in your position, can't you?

Exactly right. With good records these guys are complaining we weren't doing enough to win then blame Joe for a football first culture that led to JS.

 

[Osprey Lion]

So Paterno had nothing to do with the program yet he was running it into the ground? Again, I realize we're talking about high level logic that likely zipped right past you but even a dim bulb like you can surely see the internal contradiction in your position, can't you?

Please reference my post where I said he was running the program into the ground.
You can't even attempt to make a point without lying. I said he was no longer a functioning
Head Coach and credit should go to his staff. If Paterno was the Saint so many in this
thread believe him to be, he would have stepped down and let someone who was actually
coaching PSU have the title, salary and credit.

 

[Osprey Lion]

Exactly right. With good records these guys are complaining we weren't doing enough to win then blame Joe for a football first culture that led to JS.

So you also can't read. You and Madsol are two cultists in a pod.

 

[BobPSU92]

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Interesting take by Scott. What happened to the people who made the accusations from the '70s? Instead of screaming from the rooftops for money, they all have crawled away.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

So Paterno had nothing to do with the program yet he was running it into the ground? Again, I realize we're talking about high level logic that likely zipped right past you but even a dim bulb like you can surely see the internal contradiction in your position, can't you?

BOOM, proving my point. there's only one narrative that is consistent and fits all logic. the haters don't have it

 

[Obliviax]

So you also can't read. You and Madsol are two cultists in a pod.

Lol. You are see soooo predictable. Always your go to game when you can no longer defend your position

 

[Obliviax]

So Paterno had nothing to do with the program yet he was running it into the ground? Again, I realize we're talking about high level logic that likely zipped right past you but even a dim bulb like you can surely see the internal contradiction in your position, can't you?

Their logic is senseless. No problem if they hated Joe but be honest about it. Can't have it both ways.

 

[BobPSU92]

Even if all that is true, the program was far from being in shambles when he was fired. So he gets no credit for the fact that in spite of all of the limitations you listed PSU was 8-1, in first place, and in line to sign a top 10 recruiting class when he was fired, yet gets all of the blame for the program being in shambles. For someone who prides himself on thinking he's the smartest guy in the room, your position is totally illogical...and you don't even recognize it.

The program was in great shape until Joe was fired (or was "retired early"). The bot fired Joe and nearly killed the program. It's only because of leaders on the team, kids that Joe and his staff recruited, that the program held together in July 2012. Of course, O'Brien started to build the program back and Franklin brought it back to full strength.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

The program was in great shape until Joe was fired (or was "retired early"). The bot fired Joe and nearly killed the program. It's only because of leaders on the team, kids that Joe and his staff recruited, that the program held together in July 2012. Of course, O'Brien started to build the program back and Franklin brought it back to full strength.

let's not forget the strong support of the alumni and fans, and guys like Franco Harris, who knew the narrative about the program and Joe was a convoluted lie.

 

[Obliviax]

The program was in great shape until Joe was fired (or was "retired early"). The bot fired Joe and nearly killed the program. It's only because of leaders on the team, kids that Joe and his staff recruited, that the program held together in July 2012. Of course, O'Brien started to build the program back and Franklin brought it back to full strength.

I'd also add the fans, who continued to come out ~ 100,000 strong despite the ridicule of rooting for a school and team of pedo enablers. Kids came here because they wanted to play in front of those fans. And, I feel like those bandwagon fans, the ones that get drunk and boo the team and coaches from time to time, are in the vast minority (which is nice).

 

[Madsol]

So you also can't read. You and Madsol are two cultists in a pod.

Hey Obliviax, I forgot, is it my day to spend bowing before the Paterno statue or yours?

 

[getmyjive11]

At least you and Osprey are consistent. Consistently wrong, but consistent nonetheless. So he had nothing to do with the program and any success was all due to his assistants yet he should have resigned/been fired years earlier because of all the damage his non-involvement was doing to the program. Is that about right?

Yes. He should have been fired because he wasn't doing his job, particularly after the 2005 season. What would you say if James Franklin refused to recruit and could even get the name of his starting QB correct? I'm not sure how anyone being objective could say that Joe was doing his job as the HC of a major D1 program at the end of his era.

 

[Obliviax]

Yes. He should have been fired because he wasn't doing his job, particularly after the 2005 season. What would you say if James Franklin refused to recruit and could even get the name of his starting QB correct? I'm not sure how anyone being objective could say that Joe was doing his job as the HC of a major D1 program at the end of his era.

What? PSU went 11-1, won the BIG and came within a whisker of playing for the MNC. Then, in 2008, PSU won the B1G title and was ranked #8 in the country.

Your statement is ludicrous on its very face. Are you saying Joe didn't do enough? Then, in other posts, you suggest Joe should have done more. You can't have it both ways. While it wasn't the best time in PSU's history, we won two B1G titles from 2005 to 2011 and had one of the top three academic ratings every single season (with Stanford and ND).

 

[getmyjive11]

What? PSU went 11-1, won the BIG and came within a whisker of playing for the MNC. Then, in 2008, PSU won the B1G title and was ranked #8 in the country.

Your statement is ludicrous on its very face. Are you saying Joe didn't do enough? Then, in other posts, you suggest Joe should have done more. You can't have it both ways. While it wasn't the best time in PSU's history, we won two B1G titles from 2005 to 2011 and had one of the top three academic ratings every single season (with Stanford and ND).

He worked hard in 2005 and then was completely exhausted at the end of the season. 2005 was as close to the 60's thru mid 90's Joe that we would see during his last 10-15 years as HC. I give him all the credit in the world for that season as he worked his ass off to get kids like Williams and King into the fold and he directed a change of offense to fit Robinson and the young WRs. It seems that the meeting from Spanier lit a fire under his ass.

But sans-2005, he did not do a good job as the head coach. He did not perform up to the duties of a D1 HC, particularly in his last 5 years.

 

[Obliviax]

He worked hard in 2005 and then was completely exhausted at the end of the season. 2005 was as close to the 60's thru mid 90's Joe that we would see during his last 10-15 years as HC. I give him all the credit in the world for that season as he worked his ass off to get kids like Williams and King into the fold and he directed a change of offense to fit Robinson and the young WRs. It seems that the meeting from Spanier lit a fire under his ass.

But sans-2005, he did not do a good job as the head coach. He did not perform up to the duties of a D1 HC, particularly in his last 5 years.

His record indicates that the program was just fine. We won the B1G and had a good record from 2006 ~ 2011. In those five years, we won another B1G and several Bowl games. We sent a lot of kids to the NFL. We had the highest graduation rate in the nation.

ND, Texas, USC, LSU, FSU, Clemson, Neb, Michigan...and more, all had worse records than we did in that span. Again, your comments are ludicrous by evidence of the records.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

His record indicates that the program was just fine. We won the B1G and had a good record from 2006 ~ 2011. In those five years, we won another B1G and several Bowl games. We sent a lot of kids to the NFL. We had the highest graduation rate in the nation.

ND, Texas, USC, LSU, FSU, Clemson, Neb, Michigan...and more, all had worse records than we did in that span. Again, your comments are ludicrous by evidence of the records.

and yet 4 losing seasons from 2000-2004. because it was all about winning football games? LOL. Clearly Joe had a few low years. He wasn't fired. He was given the opportunity to right the ship, and he did. so the program was CLEARLY not all about winning games. and Joe CLEARLY got Success With Honor back on track.

All other narratives are laughably stupid

 

[Obliviax]

and yet 4 losing seasons from 2000-2004. because it was all about winning football games? LOL. Clearly Joe had a few low years. He wasn't fired. He was given the opportunity to right the ship, and he did. so the program was CLEARLY not all about winning games. and Joe CLEARLY got Success With Honor back on track.

All other narratives are laughably stupid

totally agree. We also have to understand that college football changed ~ 2000. Programs no longer were regional and the emphasis was no longer of "brand" but winning. Why? Cable TV revenues changed the game. We also saw programs change to embrace the "three and out" mentality for top flight players. While Joe was preaching degrees, others were preaching football factory. We saw a lot of troubling behaviors from several top flight programs in that era from the SEC to USC to Texas to tOSU. Perhaps we could have won more, but it would have changed PSU's student/athlete culture. If Joe had done that, they'd be complaining about something else.

 

[Obliviax]

Hey Obliviax, I forgot, is it my day to spend bowing before the Paterno statue or yours?

I think it was my turn to be at the Paterno Library today!

 

[getmyjive11]

His record indicates that the program was just fine. We won the B1G and had a good record from 2006 ~ 2011. In those five years, we won another B1G and several Bowl games. We sent a lot of kids to the NFL. We had the highest graduation rate in the nation.

ND, Texas, USC, LSU, FSU, Clemson, Neb, Michigan...and more, all had worse records than we did in that span. Again, your comments are ludicrous by evidence of the records.

You are wrong. Texas, USC and LSU all had better records than us over that span. And all of those schools, besides Texas and LSU, fired their coaches for poor performance. We did not. So, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

 

[michnittlion]

Our success in the 2006-2011 time period is definitely overstated by some --- we had 3 wins over teams that finished the season in the Top 22 (Oregon State 2008, Ohio State 2008, LSU 2009).

We almost always beat bad and average teams (which is not a bad thing, of course!) but similarly almost always lost to good teams.

PSU football took a clear step downward in the 2000-2004 time period (vs. where we were in the 70s, 80s, and 90s), had a great season in 2005, then was good but nothing really elite in the 2006-2011 time period. 2006-2011 was clearly worse than the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

O'Brien, for all the disadvantages he faced in his time as PSU coach, had one victory over a team that finished in the Top 22 (Wisconsin 2013). E.g., the same rate per season than we had in 2006-2011.

Franklin, of course, had 2 last season.

 

[wex18]

Wow, so this genius AJ Weberman on twitter can't be bothered to research the facts about how Paterno properly handled the JS issue... but can research all sorts of crazy mob theories about JVP?

This is apparently the same AJ Weberman who used to stalk Bob Dylan and go through his garbage. (The photo on his Twitter account matches those on the internet.) He is the author of several wild conspiracy theories.

From Wikipedia:

Weberman has written on the life and works of Bob Dylan, including creating a word concordance of Dylan's lyrics, and writing the Dylan to English Dictionary published in 2005. One of Weberman's theories on Dylan's songwriting is that some of Dylan's songs are actually about, or addressed to, Weberman himself. Most Dylan scholars and biographers have rejected Weberman's interpretations of Dylan's work.]

Rolling Stone magazine called Weberman "the king of all Dylan nuts" and he has been described as obsessively stalking Dylan and being "off the deep end". Dylan, annoyed by Weberman who was constantly digging through his garbage, assaulted Weberman on Elizabeth Street in Manhattan. In another article, Rolling Stone reported that Weberman, "a man that terrorized Bob Dylan during the '60s," had now "returned to hassle his son," Jakob Dylan.

 

[michnittlion]

totally agree. We also have to understand that college football changed ~ 2000. Programs no longer were regional and the emphasis was no longer of "brand" but winning. Why? Cable TV revenues changed the game. We also saw programs change to embrace the "three and out" mentality for top flight players. While Joe was preaching degrees, others were preaching football factory. We saw a lot of troubling behaviors from several top flight programs in that era from the SEC to USC to Texas to tOSU. Perhaps we could have won more, but it would have changed PSU's student/athlete culture. If Joe had done that, they'd be complaining about something else.

Yep - no "troubling behavior" AT ALL from Penn State in the 2000-2011 time era. EVERYONE was PERFECT. NOTHING at all.

 

[ChiTownLion]

 

[ChiTownLion]

 

[ChiTownLion]

As you were saying, wex:

 

[Zenophile]

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[michnittlion]

Per a current Big Ten coach (folks who know better than all of us, of course):

"People talk about Paterno in context of the scandal, but they were behind on so many other football things like conditioning and analyst work and overall player development. This finally looks like a modern football program.”

https://athlonsports.com/college-fo...s-talk-anonymously-about-conference-foes-2017