Most dominant PA high school wrestler ever?
- Thread starter royboy
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In the 3 state tournaments that Spencer has wrestled in, has he had any regular decisions? I believe he pinned or teched his way through the last 2, but wasn't sure about his freshman year.
I'm not voting for him necessarily, but any short list of greatest PA high school career should include the late Ty Moore.
Fresh Year (113):
TF, TF, Fall, 15-5 Major decision in the final over Joe Wheeling (General McLane)
Soph Year (120):
TF, Fall, Fall, Fall
Junior Year (120)
Fall, Fall, Fall, TF
So to answer your question, he's had 1 decision in 3 years at States
It depends on what you mean by dominant. If you are talking strictly HS matches, I would say it was Cary Kolat. However if you're talking about dominant in terms of the ability to compete at any level, I don't know of any other PA HS wrestler who has matched Jimmy Carr. He entered the Midlands tournament as a senior in HS and beat the defending D1 NCAA champion in the finals! Even Kolat didn't do that.
Also depends upon one's definition of dominant. The wrestlers listed above are good choices for being the slick guys who light up scoreboards, and ultimately had the best career records.
But, if your definition is the punisher: Chris Kwortnik. W-L/career wise, he was about the same as Wildasin, too.
But, if your definition is the punisher: Chris Kwortnik. W-L/career wise, he was about the same as Wildasin, too.
bwifan
Well-Known Member
Chris Kwortnik was most dominant and punishing wrestler I have seen in PA...
Marstellar had several regular decisions in his freshman year run and multiple major decisions over the course of the next three years.
Cary Kolat had two regular decisions. One was his first match of states his freshman year, a 12-6 decision. The second was when he was ridden the entire second period by Lewisburg wrestler Joel Toretti. I remember the crowd giving Toretti a standing ovation for doing so. Final score was 12-7 there.
As far as Ty Moore goes, he had a fantastic career (146-1), but probably not in consideration for most dominant or best ever considering he had 6 regular decisions in his 4 state championships. His 10th grade year he had all decisions on his way to the title, 10-3, 2-1, 2-0 and 4-0. He also won 4-3 in the finals his junior year over Brad Silimperi and had one loss going into states that year to Jeff Stepanic in the WPIAL finals.
Joey Wildasin was 132-1 in his career and was a 3-time champ. He lost in the finals his freshman year. He had two regular decisions as a sophomore, 9-8 in the semis and 11-7 in the finals. He had one regular decision in the semis his senior year.
From where I am sitting, what Spencer has been able to do at this point in his career is more dominant than any of the aforementioned wrestlers. Cary Kolat would be a close second with only 2 regular decisions in 4 years.
Do you all think Spencer would finish on the podium at nationals? Also, I'd put him right up with there with anyone in terms of being punishing pound for pound. He is both slick and a hammer. He annihilates kids from the top position and is brutal with his bar and half series.
He'd have to be real careful with the FS moves were he exposes his back. A top end kid like Tomasello, Nico. just might be able to stick him.
No question, he couldn't horse those guys around. But, do you think he would be one of the top 8 125 pounders? Is he that talented as a high school junior to be able to crack All-American status at the collegiate level?
Darian Cruz was an All-American as a true freshman. Lee is far ahead of where Cruz was when Cruz was a HS SR.
Lee is AA level today at 125. Very competitive with current AA's at OTC and RTC's that he has trained with. Considering he is an undersized HS 120, he is going to be scary good when he 'grows' into 125 in a couple of years.
Nico was 3rd as trFR, right? And Lee is ahead of where Nico was, though he has to put some good weight on.
Believe Jimmy wrestled his first Midlands tournament in 8th Grade! Made the Olympic Team as a 16 year old (wrestled in Olympics as a 17 year old). There is little doubt imho that Jimmy was the greatest high school wrestler in Pennsy (and U.S.) history - again, he made the U.S. Olympic Team as a 16 year old.
CSauertiegPSU had it right.
As a freshman in HS, Nico lost in the Championship bracket semis to Mark Rappo (Council Rock South), 1-0. That dropped him in to the Consolation Semis, where he defeated Clayton Youtz (Central Dauphin) by the score of 6-2. Nico then wrestled in the Consolation Finals for 3rd/4th, where he defeated Cameron Throckmorton (South Western) in overtime, 3-2 TB.
Thanks for the research and documentation. I agree with your choice of Spencer Lee.
How good was Lee's finals opponent, Austin Desanto? 50-0 coming into that match, with 2 techs and a major in the State tournament. Desanto looks to me like an above average AAA state champ in a given year, a really good high school wrestler. And Lee blew him away 15-0. Lee is an all-timer.
I have to go Kolat...personally wrestled in WPIAL during that time and he and Ty Moore where the Alpha Males...Ty ducked Kolat, agree or not he did. None the less Ty losing to Stepanic (who went on to wrestle at Navy) in the WPIAL finals was a shock. Kolat deystroyed everyone including our coaches son (Matt Turskey, Coach Turskey was my coach and coached McCutcheon). Hands down, Kolat...he translated to the NCAA level with ease making the finals as a true freshman.
Nico finished 3rd at states as a freshman. He finished 2nd at NCAAs as a true freshman.
The term "trFR" makes most people think of Nico's college career.
In THIS INTERMAT INTERVIEW ARTICLE Cary Kolat himself basically answers the question twice and says the answer is Jimmy Carr. Jimmy Carr made the US Olympic Team as a 16 year old high schooler, won Midlands as a high schooler, wrestled in his first Midlands in 8th grade, etc...
hard to argue with Cary Kolat's perspective in all this... but I have to say... Mr. Lee certainly is making one heck of a case.. I grew up watching and wrestling in the same time period as the Wildasins, Kwortniks and Moores of the wrestling world.. They were men amongst boys ready to dare you to share the same mat.
but geesh... I have to imagine 30 years from now, the wrestlers that are currently wrestling in the "Spencer Lee era" will be saying the same thing with a certain amount of pride...... that he was a "man among boys"...
Kolat kicking out of that single leg at states will forever be eched in my mind and because I had ability but couldn't perfect that move and he did it at states no less just skews my thoughts too much. That move happens now and people just roll with it.
We can't fault Lee for no making an Olympic Team yet when he hasn't had that chance. Also remember, he didn't just tech and pin his way through PA States... He also did it through Junior Worlds. Did Cadet/Jr worlds exsist back in the day? I assume if it did those other guys would have pounded the field as well or we would be talking about it.
We can't fault Lee for no making an Olympic Team yet when he hasn't had that chance.
No. We can't, but we can give credit to Jimmy Carr for doing so. It was a remarkable achievement.
here's the video of the match, against a good Chris Bohn from Boiling Springs
the flip is about halfway in; I have seen others do the move since then, but it was new to me at the time...amazing
Ironically the back flip out of a high single leg defensive position is now illegal in the rule book at both levels.
Lotta honorable mentions. Currently Spencer is not a four timer so I must give to Kary (Until next March). I was present for the flip and it was awesome.
We have the benefit of looking back at Kolat's entire career including his collegiate career. Spencer is in the midst of his run currently having not yet finished high school. I think when it's all said and done after next year, he will leave no doubt about his legacy.
Here is the formula for how "most dominant" is figured collegiately:
The Most Dominant Wrestler standings are calculated by adding the total number of points awarded through match results and dividing that number by the total number of matches wrestled. Points per match are awarded as follows. A 12-match minimum is required to be eligible for the Most Dominant Award.
* Fall, forfeit, injury default or DQ = 6 points (-6 points for a loss)
* Tech falls = 5 points (-5 points for a loss)
* Major decision = 4 points (-4 points for a loss)
* Decision = 3 points (-3 points for a loss)
When all else is equal (undefeated 4 time champs...I know Spencer isn't there yet) and considering the above formula, I think Spencer would be in the lead slightly over Kolat. I am not aware of any of Lee's matches that have not been a fall or technical fall (outside of Suriano or other matches at Super 32, or his one major decision at states his freshman year in the finals).
Also, Spencer's world level accomplishments are greater than those of his predecessors. Two-time world champion at the cadet and junior level to this point and he's dominated his international competition in both of those tournaments. Let's not forget that he won his second title in dominant fashion with a torn labrum. Here is a good article for reference from August of 2015:
http://takedownwrestle.com/wrestlin...he-greatest-high-school-wrestler-of-his-time/
Here is the formula for how "most dominant" is figured collegiately:
The Most Dominant Wrestler standings are calculated by adding the total number of points awarded through match results and dividing that number by the total number of matches wrestled. Points per match are awarded as follows. A 12-match minimum is required to be eligible for the Most Dominant Award.
* Fall, forfeit, injury default or DQ = 6 points (-6 points for a loss)
* Tech falls = 5 points (-5 points for a loss)
* Major decision = 4 points (-4 points for a loss)
* Decision = 3 points (-3 points for a loss)
When all else is equal (undefeated 4 time champs...I know Spencer isn't there yet) and considering the above formula, I think Spencer would be in the lead slightly over Kolat. I am not aware of any of Lee's matches that have not been a fall or technical fall (outside of Suriano or other matches at Super 32, or his one major decision at states his freshman year in the finals).
Also, Spencer's world level accomplishments are greater than those of his predecessors. Two-time world champion at the cadet and junior level to this point and he's dominated his international competition in both of those tournaments. Let's not forget that he won his second title in dominant fashion with a torn labrum. Here is a good article for reference from August of 2015:
http://takedownwrestle.com/wrestlin...he-greatest-high-school-wrestler-of-his-time/
I think Lee is in the running and will be at the top if he does next year what he did this year. Since his HS career isn't finished it is hard to nominate him yet. Easy to predict though!
I think Marstellar was it - pretty much unblemished career and wrestled everywhere. I think what has happened since HS has changed a lot of opinions on him for the worse. Chance was 'all that' since 8th grade.
Tough pickin though as Carr and Colat are right there.
I think Marstellar was it - pretty much unblemished career and wrestled everywhere. I think what has happened since HS has changed a lot of opinions on him for the worse. Chance was 'all that' since 8th grade.
Tough pickin though as Carr and Colat are right there.
Which leads into another thread maybe. The best high school match you've ever seen.
For me, 1973 at the State Farm Show arena, after wrestling for the Olympic team in Munich in 1972 and the aforementioned Midlands victory, Jimmy Carr was pushed to the brink (and maybe beyond) by Larry Kepp of Central Dauphin East in the state finals. Final score was 8-6, but only (in many people's opinion) because the referees refused to make another stalling call on Carr late in the third period, which would have tied the match. The excitement level of this match was the highest I've experienced for any match, high school, college or international. An Olympic team member and reigning Midlands champ being chased around the mat by an pretty unheralded senior was something I can't forget. So dramatic, you wonder why they have never made a movie about it.
But to the original question, I don't know how you go against Spencer Lee and his run in the state tournaments for his first three years. Mind-boggling. Kolat very close behind.
I agree. How many former state champs did he beat in route to 4 undefeated years. I can think of 3 off the top of my head. Brill, Peppleman and Weircioch.
As a frosh, Lee beat Hayden Lee (Marysville, OH) 12-2 in Ironman QFs; beat McCoy (Latrobe) 14-4 in PowerAde finals; beat McCoy 9-5 in WCCA finals
As a soph, Lee beat Newhouse (Mass. Perry, OH) 13-3 in Ironman QFs; beat Stickley (Graham, OH) 13-2 in Ironman finals; beat Agaisse (Delbarton, NJ) 15-4 in PowerAde finals.
Also beat Zack Zavatsky via tech fall in 2013; Zavatsky was an undefeated state champ the following year.
Any discussion of "Most dominant Pa HS wrestler" that doesn't include Wade Schalles is flawed. Especially if your metric is dominance in the state tournament. Schalles reputedly "pinned everyone" on his way to a state championship.
http://hubpages.com/sports/wade-schalles-the-best-wrestler-you-probably-dont-know
Back in the 50's the Johnson kid from Lock Haven was one that came to mind.
In 2015, Suriano beat Agaisse 5-2 in the NJ 120-lb State Finals, and this year Suriano beat him 9-2 in the 126-lb State Finals.
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