Lots of issues facing EVs.......

SLUPSU

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They are 2 different words dumb dumb....its not the use of the term its the IMPROPER use of the term. Key word being IMPROPER. How many times do you have to betold that behaviors and non numerical (subjective) factors do not have an effect on the quality of a given product? For example i think Raptor is a better name for a truck than lightning.....does that mean the specs between the 2 trucks change because of my subjective opinion regarding names? Of course not. The quality of any product is not effected by subjective factors.
damn... you're relentlessly stupid. Now you're talking quality, are you trying to shift the goalposts? Or is that another silly deflection?

Again, for the hundredth time, people will pay more for the features they want or like, and specs like towing capability are meaningless to the buyer who doesn't tow and definitely don't determine the quality of the vehicle. You add vehicle "quality" to the list of things you don't know crap about. What an anal accountant like you thinks about which vehicle is better is irrelevant. I'm sorry, not really, that pisses you off so much.
 
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ao5884

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damn... you're relentlessly stupid. Now you're talking quality, are you trying to shift the goalposts? Or is that another silly deflection?

Again, for the hundredth time, people will pay more for the features they want or like, and specs like towing capability are meaningless to the buyer who doesn't tow and definitely doesn't determine the quality of the vehicle. You add vehicle "quality" to the list of things you don't know crap about. What an anal accountant like you thinks about which vehicle is better is irrelevant. I'm sorry, not really, that pisses you off so much.
I really dont think you understand the terms that you write in your posts....Product Quality and superiority are synonymous. What people pay for because of subjective feelings do not have an effect on product quality or superiority. Again....If i buy a Pinto because i like the name better than the name Camaro. does that make the pinto the better vehicle? No one is or has "moved the goal posts" Its standard practice to create a hierarchy ( superiority factor) with any product using measurable characteristics that determine a products quality. I'm not sure you really grasp this issue very well.
 

ao5884

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Right, EV's will have 40% of the market by 2040 eh?
By 2040? If i were a betting man my money will be on 50%+ by 2040. In fact my money is on that as i have invested long term in not so much the cars but the batteries and their future applications in other markets. That was never the issue in this thread....the EV isnt up to snuff with the ICE right now beyond any doubt. 40% market share ill ballpark to around 2030 + or - 2 years.
 

rumble_lion

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And...that has absolutley no releveance to what i posted.....again EV will eventually take over....But right now they are the inferior vehicle.

Tesla is going to sell close a 1 million "inferior" cars this year? I don't think so.
 

SLUPSU

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I really dont think you understand the terms that you write in your posts....Product Quality and superiority are synonymous. What people pay for because of subjective feelings do not have an effect on product quality or superiority. Again....If i buy a Pinto because i like the name better than the name Camaro. does that make the pinto the better vehicle? No one is or has "moved the goal posts" Its standard practice to create a hierarchy ( superiority factor) with any product using measurable characteristics that determine a products quality. I'm not sure you really grasp this issue very well.

Pinto/Camaro deflections are stupid, but hating red vehicles is not. The term quality is NOT defined by which vehicle might tow more than another. Damn, I'm arguing with an idiot. Since you think you've got it all figured out based on all those metrics you've got crammed in our pea-sized brain what's the most perfect vehicle on the market based on cost, range, quality, specs, comfort, handling, etc. etc? It should be easy for you to figure out because you're an expert in quality analysis. If you can't answer that question then you lose the argument we're having. LOL
 

ao5884

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Tesla is going to sell close a 1 million "inferior" cars this year? I don't think so.
Yes..inferior doesnt mean unwanted...the market is full of inferior products that sell. Or have you gone through life thinking Mcdonalds is the gold standard for Burgers?
 
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ao5884

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Pinto/Camaro deflections are stupid, but hating red vehicles is not. The term quality is NOT defined by which vehicle might tow more than another. Damn, I'm arguing with an idiot. Since you think you've got it all figured out based on all those metrics you've got crammed in our pea-sized brain what's the most perfect vehicle on the market based on cost, range, quality, specs, comfort, handling, etc. etc? It should be easy for you to figure out because you're an expert in quality analysis. If you can't answer that question then you lose the argument we're having. LOL
To begin with you need to categorize your ramblings in a manner that at least makes some sense. The QUALITY of product is measurable we measure SPECS to determine product quality. things like RANGE and HANDLING are measurable and contained with in the term SPECS and thus impact the quality of a vehicle. So to start i would not be making frivolous categories for things that i already have within other categories...pretty sad that i have to explain that to you. The second thing i would do is make sure we are using the proverbial "apples to apples" standard which you have stuck to until now....compare trucks to trucks....now the goal posts have been moved (see i used that saying properly). The last thing we do is remove things that do not effect the performance of the truck.....using your example (you used deflection improperly again) the color of a vehicle does not and will never effect the quality (measurable performance) of any vehicle. You are confusing marketability with quality. Color is something i deal with every single working day and have done so over multiple sectors within manufacturing...u know what question has never popped up? What color has the highest quality? Ive measured to what degree a given color is present...but never measured blue and red against each other in terms of "quality". But i digress. Clearly if we look at the measurable features for trucks i.e what makes a truck a truck and in this case even some of the universal qualities of all vehicles The ICE is superior to the EV because it COMES OUT ON TOP IN MEASURABLE CATEGORIES....and even beyond that the RANGE OF BENEFITS BETWEEN THE TWO IS ALSO CLEAR. For example lets look at one of the advantages of the EV "Power" It gets to 60mph faster than the EV by what a few seconds at most? On the other hand when we look at a category the ICE has an advantage in Range we can drive 200 miles further. Underlying all of this is Price which is what puts the proverbial nail in the coffin of this "Debate" as we have established each truck has advantages (with the ICE having more). Logically that means they both have disadvantages correct? Now which vehicle requires you to pay more for its disadvantages. With the ICE yes i give up power but the price is also lower...with the EV i give up range (again to a greater degree than the ICE gave up power) and my reward for this is to pay more not because of desirability but because the EV engine itself is inherently more expensive. What does all this mean. It means that across the spectrum the EV is still the inferior truck....but like with any other product it will close the gap eventually (to a reasonable degree of certainty) and be the superior truck down the road....what part of this is confusing you?
 
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PSUEngineer89

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So, I was having a discussion on EVs with a very smart engineer a couple of months ago.

He is no idiot.

He told me that he never takes long trips, so the charging was a non-issue for him.

Then we got talking about why he preferred it (he's not a greenie) - he said the software, GUI, and control systems in the Tesla he bought are so superior that he couldn't see ever going back. That was not his only reason, but it stuck out in my mind.

But I thought to myself later: "But the software can be done with no penalty on either an EV or a conventional vehicle, right? In other words, in the discussion of EV vs ICE, software isn't really part of the discussion because either platform could develop the software." Now Elon Musk, maybe he's got the best designer working for him or whatever.....

Anyway, when we're talking ICE vs EV, we should properly limit the evaluation to the differences that are INHERENT to the platform itself - Noise, Acceleration, Reliability, Cost, Refueling/Recharging time, etc.

Making no point either way here, just trying to help make posts better.
 

SLUPSU

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To begin with you need to categorize your ramblings in a manner that at least makes some sense. The QUALITY of product is measurable we measure SPECS to determine product quality. things like RANGE and HANDLING are measurable and contained with in the term SPECS and thus impact the quality of a vehicle. So to start i would not be making frivolous categories for things that i already have within other categories...pretty sad that i have to explain that to you. The second thing i would do is make sure we are using the proverbial "apples to apples" standard which you have stuck to until now....compare trucks to trucks....now the goal posts have been moved (see i used that saying properly). The last thing we do is remove things that do not effect the performance of the truck.....using your example (you used deflection improperly again) the color of a vehicle does not and will never effect the quality (measurable performance) of any vehicle. You are confusing marketability with quality. Color is something i deal with every single working day and have done so over multiple sectors within manufacturing...u know what question has never popped up? What color has the highest quality? Ive measured to what degree a given color is present...but never measured blue and red against each other in terms of "quality". But i digress. Clearly if we look at the measurable features for trucks i.e what makes a truck a truck and in this case even some of the universal qualities of all vehicles The ICE is superior to the EV because it COMES OUT ON TOP IN MEASURABLE CATEGORIES....and even beyond that the RANGE OF BENEFITS BETWEEN THE TWO IS ALSO CLEAR. For example lets look at one of the advantages of the EV "Power" It gets to 60mph faster than the EV by what a few seconds at most? On the other hand when we look at a category the ICE has an advantage in Range we can drive 200 miles further. Underlying all of this is Price which is what puts the proverbial nail in the coffin of this "Debate" as we have established each truck has advantages (with the ICE having more). Logically that means they both have disadvantages correct? Now which vehicle requires you to pay more for its disadvantages. With the ICE yes i give up power but the price is also lower...with the EV i give up range (again to a greater degree than the ICE gave up power) and my reward for this is to pay more not because of desirability but because the EV engine itself is inherently more expensive. What does all this mean. It means that across the spectrum the EV is still the inferior truck....but like with any other product it will close the gap eventually (to a reasonable degree of certainty) and be the superior truck down the road....what part of this is confusing you?

More ramblings of a nutcase accountant with no common sense. YOU were the one who stupidly brought quality into this.

For the hundred and first time, purchasing a vehicle doesn't always come down to measurables like cost, towing, and hauling because some buyers are willing to spend more for one vehicle over another. Like a buyer might buy a 90k F350 (ICE) compared to a 65k F150 (ICE), no doubt the F150 would be superior for my needs and for you since you can't afford a 90k truck. Why is that concept confusing for you?

For an F series, it would be easy to take one measurable out of the equation, compare the cost of loaded Platinum/Limited (ICE) F450 at around 90k and compare that to 80k loaded Lariat EV. For a buyer of a daily driver who will never ever tow at the max of F450, which would be the "superior" truck for that buyer. Of course, if you weren't an inconsistent hypocrite, the answer would be the F150 (EV).

Why do you keep dodging my common sense questions?

ps... you can add paragraph usage to spelling to the list of things you need to learn how to do.
 

rumble_lion

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So, I was having a discussion on EVs with a very smart engineer a couple of months ago.

He is no idiot.

He told me that he never takes long trips, so the charging was a non-issue for him.

Then we got talking about why he preferred it (he's not a greenie) - he said the software, GUI, and control systems in the Tesla he bought are so superior that he couldn't see ever going back. That was not his only reason, but it stuck out in my mind.

But I thought to myself later: "But the software can be done with no penalty on either an EV or a conventional vehicle, right? In other words, in the discussion of EV vs ICE, software isn't really part of the discussion because either platform could develop the software." Now Elon Musk, maybe he's got the best designer working for him or whatever.....

Anyway, when we're talking ICE vs EV, we should properly limit the evaluation to the differences that are INHERENT to the platform itself - Noise, Acceleration, Reliability, Cost, Refueling/Recharging time, etc.

Making no point either way here, just trying to help make posts better.

Then we got talking about why he preferred it (he's not a greenie) - he said the software, GUI, and control systems in the Tesla he bought are so superior that he couldn't see ever going back. That was not his only reason, but it stuck out in my mind.

But I thought to myself later: "But the software can be done with no penalty on either an EV or a conventional vehicle, right? In other words, in the discussion of EV vs ICE, software isn't really part of the discussion because either platform could develop the software." Now Elon Musk, maybe he's got the best designer working for him or whatever.....

I don't think this is something that should be just brushed aside. The software on a EV is a bit different as you need really, really good software to manage the battery - charging, discharging, thermal management. The software also goes a long way in determining the performance/efficiency of the drive motor as the inverter and the motor are all software driven.

This is going to be a big challenge for legacy automakers as they never really did much software development. It's just not in their DNA. If you are top software engineer where would like to work - GM, Ford or Tesla? Tesla is going to attract the best talent.

The idea behind Apple carplay and Android auto is basically the big auto companies giving up and saying heck we will come up with a method for people to see their smart phone apps on the computer screen in the car. That way people can get the latest software on their phones and the car companies can just wash their hands of the whole software development mess.

99% of the legacy auto makers still haven't even figured out how to do over the air updates to the software in their cars. This is a big problem that they are struggling with. It's just not what they do.
 

PSUEngineer89

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Then we got talking about why he preferred it (he's not a greenie) - he said the software, GUI, and control systems in the Tesla he bought are so superior that he couldn't see ever going back. That was not his only reason, but it stuck out in my mind.

But I thought to myself later: "But the software can be done with no penalty on either an EV or a conventional vehicle, right? In other words, in the discussion of EV vs ICE, software isn't really part of the discussion because either platform could develop the software." Now Elon Musk, maybe he's got the best designer working for him or whatever.....

I don't think this is something that should be just brushed aside. The software on a EV is a bit different as you need really, really good software to manage the battery - charging, discharging, thermal management. The software also goes a long way in determining the performance/efficiency of the drive motor as the inverter and the motor are all software driven.

This is going to be a big challenge for legacy automakers as they never really did much software development. It's just not in their DNA. If you are top software engineer where would like to work - GM, Ford or Tesla? Tesla is going to attract the best talent.

The idea behind Apple carplay and Android auto is basically the big auto companies giving up and saying heck we will come up with a method for people to see their smart phone apps on the computer screen in the car. That way people can get the latest software on their phones and the car companies can just wash their hands of the whole software development mess.

99% of the legacy auto makers still haven't even figured out how to do over the air updates to the software in their cars. This is a big problem that they are struggling with. It's just not what they do.

My error in not being clear.

He was NOT talking about the power management software, he was talking about the Graphical User Interface that controlled all aspects of the vehicle - windows, cameras, locks, wipers, etc.

He just loved it. It is a high end Tesla, and he's not going back.

I'm just saying that this is SEPARATE from the essence of an EV vs. ICE discussion - either vehicle platform can support that high end software, but only MUSK made it happen.

But those fighting about EV vs ICE should exclude features that are not favored by one platform or the other from their discussion.

Make sense?
 

ao5884

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More ramblings of a nutcase accountant with no common sense. YOU were the one who stupidly brought quality into this.

For the hundred and first time, purchasing a vehicle doesn't always come down to measurables like cost, towing, and hauling because some buyers are willing to spend more for one vehicle over another. Like a buyer might buy a 90k F350 (ICE) compared to a 65k F150 (ICE), no doubt the F150 would be superior for my needs and for you since you can't afford a 90k truck. Why is that concept confusing for you?

For an F series, it would be easy to take one measurable out of the equation, compare the cost of loaded Platinum/Limited (ICE) F450 at around 90k and compare that to 80k loaded Lariat EV. For a buyer of a daily driver who will never ever tow at the max of F450, which would be the "superior" truck for that buyer. Of course, if you weren't an inconsistent hypocrite, the answer would be the F150 (EV).

Why do you keep dodging my common sense questions?

ps... you can add paragraph usage to spelling to the list of things you need to learn how to do.
Once again i guess i will have to go very slow so your small brain can keep up. For the 10 millionth time SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS DO NOT HAVE AN EFFECT ON PERFORMANCE. Lets use your example. To start once again you just make up numbers tell me how do you know a loaded EV lariat is going to cost 80k when those prices have not been released yet?


We do know that an XLT EV will start at 52k...and the same truck with an ICE will be 38k...giving us a 14k price premium. So we will compare an XLT ICE and an XLT EV. Why? because we are trying to gauge the quality (superiority) of the ICE vs the EV. Now when we compare these 2 vehicles what do we find....we not only find that the ICE outperforms the EV in terms of the categories that make a truck a truck. We also find that in terms of universal categories it also out performs in Range, Refueling time, Cost of insurance etc....and it does all of this for 14k less than the EV model in UP FRONT savings....i have already broken down the math [pertaining to how long your "fuel savings" will take to give you an actual net gain. Which of course you dismissed. So lets break this down further. At the point of purchase the EV has an advantage in HP, Torque, accel, quietness and 12 years from now will hold an advantage in overall cost. The ICE will have an advantage in tow weight, haul weight, range, refuel time, cheaper insurance, and overall cost. Now even if we treat all of those factors as equal ( They aren't as the ICE advantages are greater in terms of numeric values such as the EV having a 2 second advantage in 0 to 60 time and the ICE having 200+ miles of a range advantage) it would be illogical to purchase the EV unless you think paying more for less is a logical decision The difference is that the ICE can function as an everyday driver and if it needs to do the things that require a truck...the same can not be said for the EV, If the EV came with a smaller price tag then yes i could see that...but as it does not and by a substantial amount that will be for a future discussion when it can.. Now I'm sure you are going to go into a lengthy explanation as to why you think this is deflection ( Ill help you out since that term gives you difficulty its Not). But unless you have something other than subjective opinions to add...you really dont have a leg to stand on here. And by the way i am not an accountant...seems you cant differentiate between professions either.
 
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SLUPSU

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My error in not being clear.

He was NOT talking about the power management software, he was talking about the Graphical User Interface that controlled all aspects of the vehicle - windows, cameras, locks, wipers, etc.

He just loved it. It is a high end Tesla, and he's not going back.

I'm just saying that this is SEPARATE from the essence of an EV vs. ICE discussion - either vehicle platform can support that high end software, but only MUSK made it happen.

But those fighting about EV vs ICE should exclude features that are not favored by one platform or the other from their discussion.

Make sense?

Most current and upcoming EV's have "high-end" GUI's with large screens with similar functionality as a Tesla.

However, that functionality, like turning your wipers on or controlling your seats from the GUI is cool but it requires you to take your eyes off the road and that's a negative in my mind. Not a deal killer, but it's not ideal from a safety perspective.

ps... according to ao's logic/argument, that smart engineer you were talking to bought an inferior car.
 

ao5884

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My error in not being clear.

He was NOT talking about the power management software, he was talking about the Graphical User Interface that controlled all aspects of the vehicle - windows, cameras, locks, wipers, etc.

He just loved it. It is a high end Tesla, and he's not going back.

I'm just saying that this is SEPARATE from the essence of an EV vs. ICE discussion - either vehicle platform can support that high end software, but only MUSK made it happen.

But those fighting about EV vs ICE should exclude features that are not favored by one platform or the other from their discussion.

Make sense?
This....in terms of options there isnt much that cant be done on both. The discussion is about the drive train which as far as i can tell is the entire reason EV vehicles are more expensive.
 

ao5884

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Most current and upcoming EV's have "high-end" GUI's with large screens with similar functionality as a Tesla.

However, that functionality, like turning your wipers on or controlling your seats from the GUI is cool but it requires you to take your eyes off the road and that's a negative in my mind. Not a deal killer, but it's not ideal from a safety perspective.

ps... according to ao's logic/argument, that smart engineer you were talking to bought an inferior car.
considering what he could have got for the same price point...yes he did.....turns out logic can be applied to multiple situations...imagine that
 

rumble_lion

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Most current and upcoming EV's have "high-end" GUI's with large screens with similar functionality as a Tesla.

However, that functionality, like turning your wipers on or controlling your seats from the GUI is cool but it requires you to take your eyes off the road and that's a negative in my mind. Not a deal killer, but it's not ideal from a safety perspective.

ps... according to ao's logic/argument, that smart engineer you were talking to bought an inferior car.

GM just converted an entire factory from producing superior ICE vehicles to inferior EV's. Epic fail.
 
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ao5884

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GM just converted an entire factory from producing superior ICE vehicles to inferior EV's. Epic fail.
And how many factories do they have to produce ICE vehicles? Again thi is something that would be done to get ahead of what the market will be in the future....that doesnt change the fact that the ICE is superior RIGHT NOW
 

SLUPSU

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Once again i guess i will have to go very slow so your small brain can keep up. For the 10 millionth time SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS DO NOT HAVE AN EFFECT ON PERFORMANCE. Lets use your example. To start once again you just make up numbers tell me how do you know a loaded EV lariat is going to cost 80k when those prices have not been released yet?


We do know that an XLT EV will start at 52k...and the same truck with an ICE will be 38k...giving us a 14k price premium. So we will compare an XLT ICE and an XLT EV. Why? because we are trying to gauge the quality (superiority) of the ICE vs the EV. Now when we compare these 2 vehicles what do we find....we not only find that the ICE outperforms the EV in terms of the categories that make a truck a truck. We also find that in terms of universal categories it also out performs in Range, Refueling time, Cost of insurance etc....and it does all of this for 14k less than the EV model in UP FRONT savings....i have already broken down the math [pertaining to how long your "fuel savings" will take to give you an actual net gain. Which of course you dismissed. So lets break this down further. At the point of purchase the EV has an advantage in HP, Torque, accel, quietness and 12 years from now will hold an advantage in overall cost. The ICE will have an advantage in tow weight, haul weight, range, refuel time, cheaper insurance, and overall cost. Now even if we treat all of those factors as equal ( They aren't as the ICE advantages are greater in terms of numeric values such as the EV having a 2 second advantage in 0 to 60 time and the ICE having 200+ miles of a range advantage) it would be illogical to purchase the EV unless you think paying more for less is a logical decision The difference is that the ICE can function as an everyday driver and if it needs to do the things that require a truck...the same can not be said for the EV, If the EV came with a smaller price tag then yes i could see that...but as it does not and by a substantial amount that will be for a future disscussion when it can.. Now I'm sure you are going to go into a lengthy explaination as to why you think this is deflection ( Ill help you out since that term gives you difficulty its Not). But unless you have something other than subjective opinions to add...you really dont have a leg to stand on here.

You can have the last word on this after this post since you are weak-minded and have to have it.

Your post(s) continue to be based on misinformation and lies, I'll just mention just one because there are many. Your lame justifications/analyses rely on information pertinent to cars only, like "fueling" costs comparison for low mpg ICE trucks for drivers who drive 15k miles per year.

I'm trying to make a point but you won't listen because you're relentlessly stubborn, arrogant, and have the personality of an anal accountant who's been beaten up by smarter engineers all his life. Your logic in labeling one vehicle "superior" is just stupid nonsense because you dismiss and undervalue the value of the EV's positive features and YES some are subjective. THAT STILL contributes to the perceived and real added value for EV buyers. I'm sorry you can't deal in shades of gray but that's understandable for an accountant.

I've clearly stated the same thing over and over and can't say anything more other than you're entitled to your flawed opinion but not to your own facts when it comes to how normal people make buying decisions. Clearly, you're not normal.

 

The Spin Meister

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An altered state
Ev's are now California biggest export. Nothing to see, move along.

California officially sold 1 million electric vehicles this month, according to the California Energy Commission (CEC) Chair David Hochschild. California is home to many EV automakers, including Tesla, the leading pure electric car manufacturer in the market today.​
“We just hit this month a very significant milestone, reaching 1 million electric vehicles sold in California,” Hochschild said. “There are almost three dozen companies making EVs in the state, which are now its largest export,” said Hochschild during an event hosted by The Washington Post on Monday.​
Wrong again, prog breath! California’s biggest export is people and businesses fleeing the People’s Paradise to a better place.
 

rumble_lion

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My error in not being clear.

He was NOT talking about the power management software, he was talking about the Graphical User Interface that controlled all aspects of the vehicle - windows, cameras, locks, wipers, etc.

He just loved it. It is a high end Tesla, and he's not going back.

I'm just saying that this is SEPARATE from the essence of an EV vs. ICE discussion - either vehicle platform can support that high end software, but only MUSK made it happen.

But those fighting about EV vs ICE should exclude features that are not favored by one platform or the other from their discussion.

Make sense?

Yeah, I see your point but I still think the software component of an EV is more important than that of ICE car.

Take for instance going on a road trip to city 400 miles away. In an ICE can you can just pretty much hit the road and look for and find gas stations along the way without any planning.

In an EV you need have route planned with charging. In the Tesla this is every easy to do as software plans the entire trip and tells you exactly when and how to long to stop at each Tesla charger. Since Tesla owns all the chargers the software can even plan around chargers that are busy.

When I read a review for VW ID.4 the reviewer had the car plan a long trip and when he was checking it he discovered the cars software scheduled him to charge for 10 hours at a slow level 2 charger. Now this guy happened to know that there was a level 3 charger not far from the scheduled stop. So he used an EV route planner software on his phone to do the trip because it scheduled all the charging stops at level 3 chargers.

That is the kind of software mistake that go from inconvenient to pretty much unusable. You just can't put crappy software in an EV like that and expect to sell a lot of them.
 

rumble_lion

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And how many factories do they have to produce ICE vehicles? Again thi is something that would be done to get ahead of what the market will be in the future....that doesnt change the fact that the ICE is superior RIGHT NOW

And how many factories do they have to produce ICE vehicles?

One less than they had before.

If they don't get a move on they are going to have a lot less factories.....
 

ao5884

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And how many factories do they have to produce ICE vehicles?

One less than they had before.

If they don't get a move on they are going to have a lot less factories.....
Yet they still have more that produce ICE vehicles...if EV vehicles were really that good why not convert all of your plants to EV only??? could it be that they are starting the process in anticipation of EV vehicles becoming superior down the road like i have repeatedly said they would?
 

ao5884

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You can have the last word on this after this post since you are weak-minded and have to have it.

Your post(s) continue to be based on misinformation and lies, I'll just mention just one because there are many. Your lame justifications/analyses rely on information pertinent to cars only, like "fueling" costs comparison for low mpg ICE trucks for drivers who drive 15k miles per year.

I'm trying to make a point but you won't listen because you're relentlessly stubborn, arrogant, and have the personality of an anal accountant who's been beaten up by smarter engineers all his life. Your logic in labeling one vehicle "superior" is just stupid nonsense because you dismiss and undervalue the value of the EV's positive features and YES some are subjective. THAT STILL contributes to the perceived and real added value for EV buyers. I'm sorry you can't deal in shades of gray but that's understandable for an accountant.

I've clearly stated the same thing over and over and can't say anything more other than you're entitled to your flawed opinion but not to your own facts when it comes to how normal people make buying decisions. Clearly, you're not normal.

Ive posted multiple fuel cost calculators that support my claims regarding fuel cost savings In which you can even break down the savings for the region and or state you live in for a more accurate number . I am not under valuing or over valuing ANYTHING....i am simply comparing 2 vehicles based on measurable specifications with everything but the drivetrain (the difference between the 2) which is why i compared the XLT version of each vehicle You on the other hand were trying to choose a higher trim level to compare to a lower trim level in order to close the gap in price (the Limited/platinum vs the lariat) which is at the core of why the ICE is superior Not only that you made up price points for both to give the EV an actual advantage in price. Im sorry the numbers do not fall in line with your opinion, but they are what they are. I did not make the numbers i merely compiled them. I understand you believe your subjective opinion somehow has weight or the ability to change objective figures...but in the real world if you have that opinion and 5 bucks u really only have bucks. And Now you once again try to present a tax credit as evidence for calling the EV superior...again a tax credit does absolutely nothing to reduce the actual cost of the vehicle it SHIFTS the cost to other people so now other people are paying for underperforming vehicle you are purchasing. If the EV was really the better vehicle it would not need a tax credit to incentivize people into purchasing it. You even posted a list of prices that aren't the actual prices of the trim levels....funny though that even WITH the fake numbers and the tax credit the XLT ICE still undercuts the EV by 7k....no credit needed so who is using there own facts again there champ?. But then again im talking to a guy that after all this time still doesn't even have the ability to comprehend what i do for a living but that's understandable for a burger flipper ( since we can just call people what ever we want).
 

rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
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Yet they still have more that produce ICE vehicles...if EV vehicles were really that good why not convert all of your plants to EV only??? could it be that they are starting the process in anticipation of EV vehicles becoming superior down the road like i have repeatedly said they would?

Yet they still have more that produce ICE vehicles...if EV vehicles were really that good why not convert all of your plants to EV only???

Pretty sure Lucid, Tesla, Rivian and a couple dozen Chinese manufactures have already converted 100% to EVs.

As far as the legacy auto manufactures converting over - well they are the ones getting disrupted. Some of them may make it but they will probably end up being smaller companies than they are now. Some of them aren't going to be around.
 

The Spin Meister

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Nov 27, 2012
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An altered state
O all day long Fox News had a reporter at the LACAuto Show and was featuring various EVs from many manufacturers. One was a Vietnamese manufacturer that IIRC, was opening a plant in the US. One cool car called the Aramdillo was a hatch back that has solar panels on roof and a long rear hatch. Said in sunny climes like Ca and Ar it would charge about 25/day.....enough for short commutes. Interstellar stuff.
 

ao5884

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Oct 1, 2019
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Yet they still have more that produce ICE vehicles...if EV vehicles were really that good why not convert all of your plants to EV only???

Pretty sure Lucid, Tesla, Rivian and a couple dozen Chinese manufactures have already converted 100% to EVs.

As far as the legacy auto manufactures converting over - well they are the ones getting disrupted. Some of them may make it but they will probably end up being smaller companies than they are now. Some of them aren't going to be around.
Pretty sure ICE sales dwarf EV sales. Most of not all the big manufacturers will remain ...they have adapted to new tech. Plus there are certain markets that EV will never fill.
 

rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
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Pretty sure ICE sales dwarf EV sales. Most of not all the big manufacturers will remain ...they have adapted to new tech. Plus there are certain markets that EV will never fill.

Pretty sure ICE sales dwarf EV sales.

Pretty sure if this wasn't true then no one would be talking about EV's disrupting anything.
 

rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
20,298
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Pretty sure ICE sales dwarf EV sales. Most of not all the big manufacturers will remain ...they have adapted to new tech. Plus there are certain markets that EV will never fill.

Most of not all the big manufacturers will remain

Maybe if government bails them out again.

they have adapted to new tech


Wow, that's amazing! Is this one of the things that is true because you said it's true?
 

ao5884

Well-Known Member
Oct 1, 2019
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L Most of not all the big manufacturers will remain

Maybe if government bails them out again.

they have adapted to new tech

Wow, that's amazing! Is this one of the things that is true because you said it's true?
Nope it's just an observation....turns out the model T and the mustang are completely different tech wise. Of course there is an outside shot of their being a "Kodak" in the bunch...but it's unlikely.