Wrestling LIVE THREAD: Penn State vs. Michigan 1/19

mcpat

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Didn't get to see this until today, was shooting Lock Haven v George Mason last night. I thought Hildebrandt looked solid but never really threatened Suriano, which is about what I'd expect. RBY and Nick Lee delivered what must be demoralizing losses to Ragusin and Mattin. I doubt either thought they were walking away with a W but I imagine they both figured they could keep it to a DEC.

At 157 through HWT, where Michigan has legit podium guys at every weight, the longer it stayed close, the more certain it looked that Penn State was going to get the clinching TD. They were all close matches on paper but with the exception of Dean, never felt in doubt. Even there, where Dean had to ride out in order to send it to SV, it Dean is so well-conditioned that it was plausible. If you're not beating Max Dean by at least 3 in the third, you're in trouble.
Ragusin did keep it to a Dec.
 
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Callthestall

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An optimist would note that Dean found a way to beat a national 4th placer in the other guy's gym.
After 1st period I was hoping Dean had top in 2nd period. I was thinking Dean could wear him down.
If they meet again Michigan/Brucki might not go under because of how the match played out.
 

nerfstate

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Yeah matches like that one have me wanting TDs to be 3 points. 3 vs 1 TD against#2 is impressive and should be rewarded.
And Max Dean would have lost soundly in regulation. It’s Folkstyle, wins aren’t always pretty! I like the current rules, except I would probably favor a step out as an auto-stall.
 
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Callthestall

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And this is what's wrong with folk. A td should be 3.
I don't disagree about 3 for takedown but then they have to change back points. A takedown should not be worth more than nearfall points.
Maybe 3 and 4 ?????
If Cuvo would of wrestle with 3 points being a takedown the matches would of been done in a minute.😉
 

creamery freak

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I don't disagree about 3 for takedown but then they have to change back points. A takedown should not be worth more than nearfall points.
Maybe 3 and 4 ?????
If Cuvo would of wrestle with 3 points being a takedown the matches would of been done in a minute.😉
I'd like to see the initial takedown in the 1st period be 3 pts and the 1st release be free.
I think it would give a greater sense of urgency to get that initial takedown and generate offense.
The reward for the initial takedown would be a 3-0 lead instead of 2-1
 

KCLion

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I'd like to see the initial takedown in the 1st period be 3 pts and the 1st release be free.
I think it would give a greater sense of urgency to get that initial takedown and generate offense.
The reward for the initial takedown would be a 3-0 lead instead of 2-1
And then hand-fight “stall” the rest of the period with a 3 pt lead??
 
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IwasAwful

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And Max Dean would have lost soundly in regulation. It’s Folkstyle, wins aren’t always pretty! I like the current rules, except I would probably favor a step out as an auto-stall.
I think Kirks match is a good example on how to fix riding time. This solution would not have worked in Max’s favor, but I think the top wrestler should only be able to accumulate riding time after he scores. Like after a take down, reversal, or accumulating near fall. Kirk earned his riding time point because he accumulated most of it after taking Paris down.
 
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crablegs1

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And then hand-fight “stall” the rest of the period with a 3 pt lead??
It would be contingent upon the other guy to really pick up the pace. Right now if there is one takedown in the first, both guys just hand fight and stall because they know they’ll both get to go down, and maybe one of them can stall ride enough to get riding time.

I’d have to think this through a bit more, but this initially sounds like a good idea.
 
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crablegs1

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I'd like to see the initial takedown in the 1st period be 3 pts and the 1st release be free.
I think it would give a greater sense of urgency to get that initial takedown and generate offense.
The reward for the initial takedown would be a 3-0 lead instead of 2-1
Then it also creates action the rest of the match, because the opponent is in a hole that they can’t get out of with a stall ride and escape. They actually need to wrestle. I think this idea would incentivize action.
 
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creamery freak

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And then hand-fight “stall” the rest of the period with a 3 pt lead??
While were at it the next thing I'd change is the top wrestler in the 2nd and 3rd period would have 1 minute to generate back points. If after 1 minute no backs then the wrestlers stand up but the release is free, as in the top man doesn't lose a point.
Again, I think it would generate offense for fans.
 
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Sportfan2017

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Yeah matches like that one have me wanting TDs to be 3 points. 3 vs 1 TD against#2 is impressive and should be rewarded.
Just make a TD 2 1/2 points and call it a day. 2 TDs and 2 escapes makes it 5-2. That sounds about right :)
Think about it:
9 Tds to zero Tds +8 escapes (releases) makes it 18-8. Still closer to a MD than a Tech. Not fair. BUT:
9 Tds to Zero Tds + 8 escapes (releases ) makes it 22.5-8. Much closer to a tech....as it should be. Do It!
 
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js8793

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coaches should show that last exchange by brooks as their introduction to baseline d. that was a clinic. nothing fancy, but the subtle changes in hip pressure and throwing amine's head outside and then back inside, making amine react to him instead of reacting to amine, knowing when to slide off and when to feed him hips. just incredible stuff.
 

CSauertiegPSU

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Again, if you want takedowns to be worth more, don’t give up escapes and be able to escape when you’re underneath.
 
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GogglesPaizano

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Again, if you want takedowns to be worth more, don’t give up escapes and be able to escape when you’re underneath.
Were mostly talking about catch and intentional release, that rewards a giveaway, and only gains 1 pt Net each cycle. To get a tech you need 15-0 takedowns.
 

tikk10

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coaches should show that last exchange by brooks as their introduction to baseline d. that was a clinic. nothing fancy, but the subtle changes in hip pressure and throwing amine's head outside and then back inside, making amine react to him instead of reacting to amine, knowing when to slide off and when to feed him hips. just incredible stuff.
Yeah, this. A lot of guys just sprawl hard and otherwise and predictably stop wrestling, ceding initiative to the offensive wrestler. Brooks never stopped working through that position, reacting to every one of Amine's changes and movements, looking for his opening.
 

RoarLions1

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Sorry, mistakenly put this in the Iowa/tOSU thread late last night. Belonged here. Too much re-hydration?

Hi from Ann Arbor. Just an absolutely dynamite effort from all 10 wrestlers. The kids brought it - energy and more.

Hildebrant set the tone, despite losing, RBY and Lee dominated. Bartlett looked great despite the unfortunate injury. Barraclough too looked decent in a loss, then the backend - I’ll call it murderers row - sealed the deal with Kerkvliet adding an exclamation point. In short, it was fun.
 

creamery freak

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Sorry, mistakenly put this in the Iowa/tOSU thread late last night. Belonged here. Too much re-hydration?

Hi from Ann Arbor. Just an absolutely dynamite effort from all 10 wrestlers. The kids brought it - energy and more.

Hildebrant set the tone, despite losing, RBY and Lee dominated. Bartlett looked great despite the unfortunate injury. Barraclough too looked decent in a loss, then the backend - I’ll call it murderers row - sealed the deal with Kerkvliet adding an exclamation point. In short, it was fun.
I'll give you a like no matter what thread you put that in!
 

Shifty15

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Sorry, mistakenly put this in the Iowa/tOSU thread late last night. Belonged here. Too much re-hydration?

Hi from Ann Arbor. Just an absolutely dynamite effort from all 10 wrestlers. The kids brought it - energy and more.

Hildebrant set the tone, despite losing, RBY and Lee dominated. Bartlett looked great despite the unfortunate injury. Barraclough too looked decent in a loss, then the backend - I’ll call it murderers row - sealed the deal with Kerkvliet adding an exclamation point. In short, it was fun.
Well, rehydration is critical…so there’s that!!
 

okinburg1

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Is it just me or is Kerk unbelievably large for "only" being 240 pounds?
Can't wait to see him against Cass.
 

js8793

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Yeah, this. A lot of guys just sprawl hard and otherwise and predictably stop wrestling, ceding initiative to the offensive wrestler. Brooks never stopped working through that position, reacting to every one of Amine's changes and movements, looking for his opening.
and a lot make the opposite mistake and rush trying to score, lose their hip pressure and allow their opponent to split the middle or get to an iranian finish. amine did a great job of battling back into scoring position 2-3 times and when he did, brooks stayed patient and broke his position again before trying to score. very simple, broken leg attack situation you see in almost every match, but between two elite guys, both doing very high level things. hope we see that match up 2 more times.
 

McScoreley

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they'll weigh in similarly, but kerk will look way bigger than him. way bigger frame.
Cass looks way quicker this year which you'd expect. He still has all his strength (he just melted all his fat away). The big difference is I've seen a few positions where I think he could get the pin last year if he he had 30 extra pounds to collapse in neutral on his opponent. He still can ride very well because he's always looking for a turn which overwhelms his opponent if they're focused on not going over vs getting out. Regardless, it should be a fun match next week!
 

McScoreley

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I'm starting to wonder if Kerk was a shell of himself in the Fall. I know he had bouts with the stomach flu but weighing in at 228 was pretty telling. That's what he weighed in at Maryland last year when he was off the entire Spring. It's scary but I think he's not even at his best yet.
 

okinburg1

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I'm starting to wonder if Kerk was a shell of himself in the Fall. I know he had bouts with the stomach flu but weighing in at 228 was pretty telling. That's what he weighed in at Maryland last year when he was off the entire Spring. It's scary but I think he's not even at his best yet.
Agree. Hoping we see him next year at 260-ish. National champ - I'm calling it now.
 
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PAgeologist

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Lilly, PA
YouTube will usually have a replay from BTN that has select matches. I think if you're a Comcast customer you can go online and rewatch through Xfinity.
Thanks. I found the upload of the select matches. I wasn't able to find it on my Xfinity. It was on BTN+ behind the pay wall. I thought that was strange considering it was broadcasted.
 

ss7

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Were mostly talking about catch and intentional release, that rewards a giveaway, and only gains 1 pt Net each cycle. To get a tech you need 15-0 takedowns.
Which makes it difficult to get a TF without putting a guy on his back.

I'm OK with that.
 
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nitlion6

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wow, lots of thoughts after watching last night..
- after Hildebrandt got hit with a stall call early I thought there would be a barrage of them. Apparently not. Guess the ref saw the tone of the night in the very next match...
- Was happy the cylinder was used for RBYs TD but that was close
- I hate getting two takedowns and end up 4-4 after one
- AB and CStar must 'flex' their hips all the time in the room...would be fun to see them practice with each other
- Berge look solid but that weight class has a lot of studs for surviving close matches
- Compared to the other weight classes, we have a hole at 57
- Dean got taken down too easily for my liking
- Would like to see Hildebrandt display more O from his feet
- Interesting tOSU 125 match - they wrestled hard until the end
- Maybe the binder included how to peak in March and that is what Brands is doing
- Mystery with AD continues. Seriously, maybe he is trying to peak in March (Brands) and has a new approach
- Iowa is loaded with a lot of folks who have experience and big wins under their belts
- 7th year in college just doesn't sound right. Although we have elderly fellow on our roster (Mason)
For a pretty decent slap down of a very talented Michigan team, you appear unhappy with the performance.
 

Junglekitty

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Not sure if anyone did grades to respond to, but I'll do a set.

125-B+ Suriano is in a tier with Vito and Glory to stand atop the podium. I thought Drew did a fantastic job keeping the score 2-1. Would have liked to see him be a bit more offensive late, which is why I didn't give an A. I definitely think Drew could have won that match with the way Suriano approached the final 2 periods.

133-A- With a match like last night that could have been tight, we're looking for RBY to come out and get bonus. Even though he was close, he didn't achieve that. He dominated the 8th ranked wrestler in the nation, so his grade doesn't get hurt too bad. However, I docked him for giving up the escape late to lose the major. One could argue he had the takedown at the end, but it wasn't awarded, so no major. Those types of bonus points, as usual, will be crucial come March.

141-A+. Welcome back Nick Lee. I don't know what his situation was with being out of the previous matches, I heard he was sick, also heard he was just in protocol. If its the former, wow. He didn't look like he had the stamina he usually has, but with matches like that, he'll regain it quickly.

149-A. Seemed to be aggressive with the limited time he was on the mat. If he's turning the corner, he'll definitely make some noise in the weeks to come and tournament time. I hope Mattin isn't injured too badly and wish him a quick recovery.

157-B- Bearclaw gave Lewan a run, and I think that was the best I have seen him all year. Still haven't seen his top work that we've seen in the past. Maybe all of his woes are mental and he's starting to overcome them. Would like to see him get a match or two in with someone not highly ranked to see if he can get a win and really boost his confidence. Unfortunately, at this point in the season, I don't think that's gonna happen. This weight continues to be a mystery and who knows how it will unfold.

165-A. Really love seeing Berge back out there healthy. In his second match, he takes out the 10th ranked wrestler. Some would say it was Amine's first match back, which is true, but it was also only Berge's second match back. I'm very interested to see how he does next week.

174-A. Starocci came out and started wrestling a heck of a match. I think it was after the "non-esacape" break, he didn't look the same. Sometimes breaks like that can alter the flow of a match, and I think that is what happened but in my opinion didn't have a complete match. He'll need to put it all together next week.

184-A+. What an absolute stud we have in Brooks. Talk about determination. I would just like to put something in perspective, he had an olympic bronze medalist in on his leg for probably 30 seconds. It looked like Amine was going to convert multiple times, but Brooks bit down on his mouth piece and refused to give up points, even turning it into his own takedown. That is exactly the kind of thing that teammates can look at and decide they're going to wrestle the same way. Great grit, great win, great kid.

197-B. Hard to knock Dean too bad since he pulled out a win with another great full period ride. However, he got himself into that match by getting reversed twice and not getting to his attacks more often. I get it, Brucki is tough, but so is everyone from this point on. To be clear, I think Dean is a smart enough, and good enough wrestler to make the necessary adjustments next time. I think this is the second match it row Dean hasn't looked his best. Hopefully I'm just expecting too much and he comes out and gets another good win next week.

285-A++. Mason had 100% bonus this year. In the last 2 years, he has lost to only Gable, and had bonus in every other match. Kerk comes out, wrestles an unbelievably smart match, and beat him. Not only did Kerk beat him, but he controlled the entire match. Kerk AA'd last year with minimal matches, and injury, and a sickness. He's special. An in shape, healthy Kerk can beat anyone in the weight class, and yes, I think he can beat Gable. Will that happen, not sure because Gable has for sure taken leaps himself, but Kerk kept it to a decision last year when he was nowhere near where he is now. That was one of only a handful of decisions Gable has had in the last 3 years.

Overall an outstanding performance against an extremely tough Michigan squad. Lets ride this momentum train into the Midwest next week and have the same effort.

WE ARE!
 

nitlion6

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Then it also creates action the rest of the match, because the opponent is in a hole that they can’t get out of with a stall ride and escape. They actually need to wrestle. I think this idea would incentivize action.
Half the time you can't get a guy to take a legitimate shot in the last 60 seconds of a match they are losing by a point, putting somebody down by three in the first isn't going to make a passive wrestler aggressive.

The good idea here is reward the guy who takes a single successful shot and punish the guy who does so multiple times.

We might as well just institute a ball grab rule, you know some sort of gimmick.

I wonder why baseball doesn't institute a rule that says the first HR hit in a game counts for 4 runs regardless of how many men are on base.

Gimmicks don't fix things, they belittle the true value. We don't need gimmicks.
 
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El-Jefe

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I'd like to see the initial takedown in the 1st period be 3 pts and the 1st release be free.
I think it would give a greater sense of urgency to get that initial takedown and generate offense.
The reward for the initial takedown would be a 3-0 lead instead of 2-1
Including when the first takedown is a counter score?

In which case we've already seen the last shot Lehigh and OKST take in a first period. No reason for them to take any risk whatsoever.
 

PSUbluTX

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Not sure if anyone did grades to respond to, but I'll do a set.

125-B+ Suriano is in a tier with Vito and Glory to stand atop the podium. I thought Drew did a fantastic job keeping the score 2-1. Would have liked to see him be a bit more offensive late, which is why I didn't give an A. I definitely think Drew could have won that match with the way Suriano approached the final 2 periods.

133-A- With a match like last night that could have been tight, we're looking for RBY to come out and get bonus. Even though he was close, he didn't achieve that. He dominated the 8th ranked wrestler in the nation, so his grade doesn't get hurt too bad. However, I docked him for giving up the escape late to lose the major. One could argue he had the takedown at the end, but it wasn't awarded, so no major. Those types of bonus points, as usual, will be crucial come March.

141-A+. Welcome back Nick Lee. I don't know what his situation was with being out of the previous matches, I heard he was sick, also heard he was just in protocol. If its the former, wow. He didn't look like he had the stamina he usually has, but with matches like that, he'll regain it quickly.

149-A. Seemed to be aggressive with the limited time he was on the mat. If he's turning the corner, he'll definitely make some noise in the weeks to come and tournament time. I hope Mattin isn't injured too badly and wish him a quick recovery.

157-B- Bearclaw gave Lewan a run, and I think that was the best I have seen him all year. Still haven't seen his top work that we've seen in the past. Maybe all of his woes are mental and he's starting to overcome them. Would like to see him get a match or two in with someone not highly ranked to see if he can get a win and really boost his confidence. Unfortunately, at this point in the season, I don't think that's gonna happen. This weight continues to be a mystery and who knows how it will unfold.

165-A. Really love seeing Berge back out there healthy. In his second match, he takes out the 10th ranked wrestler. Some would say it was Amine's first match back, which is true, but it was also only Berge's second match back. I'm very interested to see how he does next week.

174-A. Starocci came out and started wrestling a heck of a match. I think it was after the "non-esacape" break, he didn't look the same. Sometimes breaks like that can alter the flow of a match, and I think that is what happened but in my opinion didn't have a complete match. He'll need to put it all together next week.

184-A+. What an absolute stud we have in Brooks. Talk about determination. I would just like to put something in perspective, he had an olympic bronze medalist in on his leg for probably 30 seconds. It looked like Amine was going to convert multiple times, but Brooks bit down on his mouth piece and refused to give up points, even turning it into his own takedown. That is exactly the kind of thing that teammates can look at and decide they're going to wrestle the same way. Great grit, great win, great kid.

197-B. Hard to knock Dean too bad since he pulled out a win with another great full period ride. However, he got himself into that match by getting reversed twice and not getting to his attacks more often. I get it, Brucki is tough, but so is everyone from this point on. To be clear, I think Dean is a smart enough, and good enough wrestler to make the necessary adjustments next time. I think this is the second match it row Dean hasn't looked his best. Hopefully I'm just expecting too much and he comes out and gets another good win next week.

285-A++. Mason had 100% bonus this year. In the last 2 years, he has lost to only Gable, and had bonus in every other match. Kerk comes out, wrestles an unbelievably smart match, and beat him. Not only did Kerk beat him, but he controlled the entire match. Kerk AA'd last year with minimal matches, and injury, and a sickness. He's special. An in shape, healthy Kerk can beat anyone in the weight class, and yes, I think he can beat Gable. Will that happen, not sure because Gable has for sure taken leaps himself, but Kerk kept it to a decision last year when he was nowhere near where he is now. That was one of only a handful of decisions Gable has had in the last 3 years.

Overall an outstanding performance against an extremely tough Michigan squad. Lets ride this momentum train into the Midwest next week and have the same effort.

WE ARE!
Nice observations. I’m on the same page with nearly every point.

Hilde was tentative but vigilant, as you have to be when battling a viper like Suriano, who could kill you if you are careless. Says a lot about Hilde’s dangerousness that NS also had to wrestle tight and carefrul IMO.

I loved seeing Beau come out so aggressive and ready to pounce. Looked like the result of great coaching. Super bummed we didn’t get to see that play out and that Mattin got injured. Hoping for a speedy and complete recovery for him.

It looked to me like CStar may have come in a bit too hot in P1, as if he was eager to make a statement against an elite wrestler like Massa. Props to him for gutting out the win when things went a little sideways. With better pacing I suspect Carter has a more lopsided win next time.

I give Dean a slightly higher grade than you did because he won with higher mat IQ and maturity IMO. Brucki is a dangerous opponent and is chiseled like Michelangelo’s David. It looked like Dean was giving up 20+ pounds in that match. Aside from his early mistakes to fall behind, he put on a clinic in how to drag a bigger opponent into deep water and drown him there late. Impressive. BTW, if memory serves, Dean gave up the reversals in the previous match, not against Brucki.

What more can be said about Kerk’s performance — wow! Definitely merits A++. The way he controlled that match, took down Parris almost at will, and appeared to have enough gas in the tank to go another 7 minutes at the end was incredible. Even for those of us who saw a path to victory for Kerk I’m sure few expected that display of dominance. Parris certainly looked confused by the experience.
 

PSUer1989

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Was there ever any word on Cole Mattin’s injury? I hated to see it end that way. I hope it wasn’t a season ending injury but it didn’t look good 😞
 
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