John Donovan II

[tboyer]

Yesterday was an excellent game and there are so many positives for this team. It was an awesome game to end the Pitt series and both teams deserve congratulations.

Unfortunately the PSU o-coordinator is a big lead weight that is going to cost this team 2-4 games. This is a team that might have playoff talent but you can pretty well book Orlando now for the steakhouse or rental car bowl.

He'll be gone at the end of the year -- Franklin does fire people. But for this season we have to adjust our expectations.

Really this is worse than John Donovan I. Donovan I was working with barely a Division 1 offensive line. Now Penn State has a full roster, an offense stocked with 4 star and 5 star players, many of whom will be in the NFL in a couple years.

For the second year in a row, we see really good individual performances and great effort, but an overall lack of production from the offense when the game is on the line. This team knows how to throw bombs and score a lot of points when an opponent is already beaten, but can't get first downs in pressure situations. That's coaching.

Penn State's third down conversion percentage for the year is 27% (113th of 130 Division 1). After the first game it was an eyebrow-raiser, but after three games it is a house fire.

Here's the list. Try to find another team at the bottom of the list that does the kind of recruiting Penn State does, that plays an early season schedule without major opposition. This isn't players. This is coaching.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Yesterday they had a third and four at midfield and the game was basically over if they converted. So Rahne sends two receivers 30 yards down the right sideline and Clifford has nowhere else to throw it. That's coaching.

 

[Raffycorn]

We were also 113th in third down conversions in 2016. Was that the result of inferior coaching?

 

[PSU.:.]

Yes it was
Morehead was way overated. His offense only worked that well because he had elite players at qb, rb and wr spots.

 

[rmem]

We were also 113th in third down conversions in 2016. Was that the result of inferior coaching?

So you think being 113th in the nation for 3rd down conversions is just cool right? What it means is that you are relying on big plays exclusively and if you have success it is because you hit a decent number of them. Don't you think the Pitt game would have been a lot different if we hit half of those deep throws? And please, don't try to tell me McSorley was the difference. Anyone can throw 50/50 balls.

 

[PSU Soupy]

Yes it was
Morehead was way overated. His offense only worked that well because he had elite players at qb, rb and wr spots.

dont forget TE.....

 

[tboyer]

There's a difference between not converting 3rd downs because you don't even get to third down very often, and not converting third downs because you're throwing 30 yard bombs down the right sideline when you need 4 yards to close out the game.

We were also 113th in third down conversions in 2016. Was that the result of inferior coaching?

 

[tboyer]

Penn State lacks the big tall receivers -- Godwin, Blacknall -- that Moorhead used so well.

But it has them on the roster. Shorter was recruited to do exactly what Godwin and Blacknall could do. Rahne doesn't know what to do with him. At least they targeted Chisena. They just didn't try much with Shorter.

I suspect if Moorhead had this offense he would be establishing Shorter as a big part of this offense by now. Rahne seems to overlook him which is odd considering he's 6-5/245.

Yes it was
Morehead was way overated. His offense only worked that well because he had elite players at qb, rb and wr spots.

 

[TheWizardofCamelot]

Hopefully we can find an OC with experience running this type of O with successful blocking schemes. Maybe this candidate has an offensive line coach he can bring with him. After yesterday’s debacle, the pro-Rahne and Limegrover crowd has almost completely dissipated. With a 16 game sample of these two together, I have a feeling yesterday ended the debate. Unless this offense miraculously pulls it together they’ll both be gone in December. The OSU game in Columbus could get really ugly.

 

[Connorpozlee]

Yesterday was an excellent game and there are so many positives for this team. It was an awesome game to end the Pitt series and both teams deserve congratulations.

Unfortunately the PSU o-coordinator is a big lead weight that is going to cost this team 2-4 games. This is a team that might have playoff talent but you can pretty well book Orlando now for the steakhouse or rental car bowl.

He'll be gone at the end of the year -- Franklin does fire people. But for this season we have to adjust our expectations.

Really this is worse than John Donovan I. Donovan I was working with barely a Division 1 offensive line. Now Penn State has a full roster, an offense stocked with 4 star and 5 star players, many of whom will be in the NFL in a couple years.

For the second year in a row, we see really good individual performances and great effort, but an overall lack of production from the offense when the game is on the line. This team knows how to throw bombs and score a lot of points when an opponent is already beaten, but can't get first downs in pressure situations. That's coaching.

Penn State's third down conversion percentage for the year is 27% (113th of 130 Division 1). After the first game it was an eyebrow-raiser, but after three games it is a house fire.

Here's the list. Try to find another team at the bottom of the list that does the kind of recruiting Penn State does, that plays an early season schedule without major opposition. This isn't players. This is coaching.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Yesterday they had a third and four at midfield and the game was basically over if they converted. So Rahne sends two receivers 30 yards down the right sideline and Clifford has nowhere else to throw it. That's coaching.

Third down conversions have been a problem since the switch to Moorhead’s offense, haven’t they?

 

[RTRMR]

I used to call him Jhn Dnvan.
You get it......no “O”

 

[GreatBasinNit]

Yesterday they had a third and four at midfield and the game was basically over if they converted. So Rahne sends two receivers 30 yards down the right sideline and Clifford has nowhere else to throw it. That's coaching.

I don’t understand why more coaches don’t look at that situation and decide that they’re going for it on 4th down. A first down ends the game and doesn’t give the Pitt offense a chance to tie it. Four yards is more than doable with two rushing attempts.

Serious question: does the current staff use analytics in a situation like that?

 

[PennsylvaniaPride]

Yesterday was an excellent game and there are so many positives for this team. It was an awesome game to end the Pitt series and both teams deserve congratulations.

Unfortunately the PSU o-coordinator is a big lead weight that is going to cost this team 2-4 games. This is a team that might have playoff talent but you can pretty well book Orlando now for the steakhouse or rental car bowl.

He'll be gone at the end of the year -- Franklin does fire people. But for this season we have to adjust our expectations.

Really this is worse than John Donovan I. Donovan I was working with barely a Division 1 offensive line. Now Penn State has a full roster, an offense stocked with 4 star and 5 star players, many of whom will be in the NFL in a couple years.

For the second year in a row, we see really good individual performances and great effort, but an overall lack of production from the offense when the game is on the line. This team knows how to throw bombs and score a lot of points when an opponent is already beaten, but can't get first downs in pressure situations. That's coaching.

Penn State's third down conversion percentage for the year is 27% (113th of 130 Division 1). After the first game it was an eyebrow-raiser, but after three games it is a house fire.

I'm going to share your post...

Here's the list. Try to find another team at the bottom of the list that does the kind of recruiting Penn State does, that plays an early season schedule without major opposition. This isn't players. This is coaching.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Yesterday they had a third and four at midfield and the game was basically over if they converted. So Rahne sends two receivers 30 yards down the right sideline and Clifford has nowhere else to throw it. That's coaching.

 

[Connorpozlee]

No.

Obviously

In fact - and I’d have to check to be 100% sure, but OTTOMH I am 99% sure - PSU had fewer failed third downs per game in 2017 than any B10 team in the last several years.

It certainly was in his first season though, right? With a new, inexperienced QB?
I am not really going to defend Rahne. I’ve got my issues with him, though I have some issues with the whole system. Just pointing out that the system itself seems to lend itself to longer 3rd down conversion attempts which will naturally lead to less converted 3rd downs. Having a new starter only adds to that.

 

[PennsylvaniaPride]

Yesterday was an excellent game and there are so many positives for this team. It was an awesome game to end the Pitt series and both teams deserve congratulations.

Unfortunately the PSU o-coordinator is a big lead weight that is going to cost this team 2-4 games. This is a team that might have playoff talent but you can pretty well book Orlando now for the steakhouse or rental car bowl.

He'll be gone at the end of the year -- Franklin does fire people. But for this season we have to adjust our expectations.

Really this is worse than John Donovan I. Donovan I was working with barely a Division 1 offensive line. Now Penn State has a full roster, an offense stocked with 4 star and 5 star players, many of whom will be in the NFL in a couple years.

For the second year in a row, we see really good individual performances and great effort, but an overall lack of production from the offense when the game is on the line. This team knows how to throw bombs and score a lot of points when an opponent is already beaten, but can't get first downs in pressure situations. That's coaching.

Penn State's third down conversion percentage for the year is 27% (113th of 130 Division 1). After the first game it was an eyebrow-raiser, but after three games it is a house fire.

Here's the list. Try to find another team at the bottom of the list that does the kind of recruiting Penn State does, that plays an early season schedule without major opposition. This isn't players. This is coaching.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Yesterday they had a third and four at midfield and the game was basically over if they converted. So Rahne sends two receivers 30 yards down the right sideline and Clifford has nowhere else to throw it. That's coaching.

If you click on your link for 3rd down rankings....both Georgia and Notre Dame are there. They both recruit like us if not better...

 

[tboyer]

I agree, third down conversion percentage doesn't tell the story by itself.

Moorehead's offense could be so explosive that third down was almost irrelevant at times (except vs. Michigan State and Ohio State)

But you absolutely can't argue that third down was irrelevant yesterday. If you don't score a lot of points, in a tough physical game, third down conversions MATTER. If they converted just 50% of third downs instead of 20%, PSU would have put that game away in the 3rd quarter. If they converted a third and 4 with 2 minutes to go instead of Rahne calling a bomb down the right sideline for the 47th time, the game would have been over right then.

Third down conversions have been a problem since the switch to Moorhead’s offense, haven’t they?

 

[Post_ShockTherapy_MackDaddy]

Yesterday was an excellent game and there are so many positives for this team. It was an awesome game to end the Pitt series and both teams deserve congratulations.

Unfortunately the PSU o-coordinator is a big lead weight that is going to cost this team 2-4 games. This is a team that might have playoff talent but you can pretty well book Orlando now for the steakhouse or rental car bowl.

He'll be gone at the end of the year -- Franklin does fire people. But for this season we have to adjust our expectations.

Really this is worse than John Donovan I. Donovan I was working with barely a Division 1 offensive line. Now Penn State has a full roster, an offense stocked with 4 star and 5 star players, many of whom will be in the NFL in a couple years.

For the second year in a row, we see really good individual performances and great effort, but an overall lack of production from the offense when the game is on the line. This team knows how to throw bombs and score a lot of points when an opponent is already beaten, but can't get first downs in pressure situations. That's coaching.

Penn State's third down conversion percentage for the year is 27% (113th of 130 Division 1). After the first game it was an eyebrow-raiser, but after three games it is a house fire.

Here's the list. Try to find another team at the bottom of the list that does the kind of recruiting Penn State does, that plays an early season schedule without major opposition. This isn't players. This is coaching.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Yesterday they had a third and four at midfield and the game was basically over if they converted. So Rahne sends two receivers 30 yards down the right sideline and Clifford has nowhere else to throw it. That's coaching.

Hire Jay Paterno. My two cents, anyway.

 

[PaoliLion]

The only positive yesterday was run defense and special teams...the rest was total shit. If I listen to the next presser and I hear how the team and coaches took a much deserved break this coming week and nursed their injuries, I’m going to puke. In all my years, I can’t recall a team across the NFL or CFB that has done this good of job of doing “less with more”

 

[Connorpozlee]

What is their conversion rate on 3rd and 0?

0%

 

[OhioLion]

Maybe this candidate has an offensive line coach he can bring with him.

This is second on my wish list.
First, I would like to see an attacking run offense.
1 - attacking run offense
2 - RPO offense
3 - straight drop back passing (which could/should include play action passing)
Make the passing routes intermediate - 12-17 yards for the most part. Sparingly run verts.
Just my $0.02.

OL

 

[Connorpozlee]

Actually it’s “infinity” percent (Math )

But you were close.

Such a douche. Well played.

 

[Connorpozlee]

I agree, third down conversion percentage doesn't tell the story by itself.

Moorehead's offense could be so explosive that third down was almost irrelevant at times (except vs. Michigan State and Ohio State)

But you absolutely can't argue that third down was irrelevant yesterday. If you don't score a lot of points, in a tough physical game, third down conversions MATTER. If they converted just 50% of third downs instead of 20%, PSU would have put that game away in the 3rd quarter. If they converted a third and 4 with 2 minutes to go instead of Rahne calling a bomb down the right sideline for the 47th time, the game would have been over right then.

Again, I’m not arguing anything. I agree with your points. But, Moorhead’s offense also seemed to have trouble closing games with a lead out against quality opponents. I’m hoping the week off after 1/4 of the season has been played will allow the offense to get a better feel for they have.

 

[tboyer]

Hire Jay Paterno. My two cents, anyway.

Is that really our only choice? Surely for 600k there's someone out there willing to take the job? Maybe they need to pay more.

 

[Cosmos]

Again, I’m not arguing anything. I agree with your points. But, Moorhead’s offense also seemed to have trouble closing games with a lead out against quality opponents. I’m hoping the week off after 1/4 of the season has been played will allow the offense to get a better feel for they have.

Joe Moorhead + SB + Chris Godwin + Mike Gesicki + DaeSean Hamilton + TM = lightning in a bottle. Lightening seldom strikes twice.
It behooves us come to grips with that. Sit back and enjoy the season.

 

[fastlax16]

Two observations with absolutely no numbers or data to back it up but it seems like this scheme leaves us in a lot of third and longs which you naturally convert less. The scheme is also poor in short yardage situations regardless of down (never going under center, even if it’s just the pick up inches) so the conversion rates on third and short are lower than they should be because the offense isn’t built to get 3-4 yards. The 2016 offense was great because of big plays, not because it was efficient.

 

[PeetzPoolBoy]

Speaking of John Donovan, the following is from his Wiki-bio.

In January 2014, Donovan followed Franklin to Penn State as the offensive coordinator. [10] Donovan came under heavy criticism from the Nittany Lion fan base for questionable play calling. However, a former graduate assistant who worked on the staff during the 2014 season claimed on Twitter that the offense was largely designed by the "HFC". In November 2015, he was fired from the Penn State program.

While Rahne may very well be in over his head, the underlying problem with PSU Football clearly resides at the top of the coaching staff.

Lastly, there's a good reason why Tracy Claeys immediately fired Limegrover upon succeeding Jerry Kill as Minnesota's head coach.

 

[Art]

Is that really our only choice? Surely for 600k there's someone out there willing to take the job? Maybe they need to pay more.

Michigan paid Pep Hamilton nearly $1.5mm and see what that got them.

Chasing an OC with money is generally a losing proposition (DCs outnumber them by a considerable margin among the highest paid assistants). Identify ability and then pay for performance.

 

[PSUdraw]

Speaking of John Donovan, the following is from his Wiki-bio.

In January 2014, Donovan followed Franklin to Penn State as the offensive coordinator. [10] Donovan came under heavy criticism from the Nittany Lion fan base for questionable play calling. However, a former graduate assistant who worked on the staff during the 2014 season claimed on Twitter that the offense was largely designed by the "HFC". In November 2015, he was fired from the Penn State program.

While Rahne may very well be in over his head, the underlying problem with PSU Football clearly resides at the top of the coaching staff.

This could be very true and maybe Franklin gave Moorhead the controls fully where the other two he has not.

 

[PSUdraw]

well being Rahne has basically been taught under Franklin, Donovan and two years of Moorhead (who taught everything Rahne knows but not everything JoMo knows)

 

[91Joe95]

I love these threads.

 

[Marylovesthelions]

I hope that Franklin replaces the RPO. We are in the fourth year and our RPO has been easily defeated in the fourth quarter as we can never sustain a drive. Our defensive collapses against OSU and MSU, 2 each, could have been avoided if our offense could maintain possession in crunch time.

 

[RickinDayton]

I hope that Franklin replaces the RPO. We are in the fourth year and our RPO has been easily defeated in the fourth quarter as we can never sustain a drive. Our defensive collapses against OSU and MSU, 2 each, could have been avoided if our offense could maintain possession in crunch time.

That is my hope too. I also see it as a failed experiment. Compare our offense with OSU, Oklahoma, Alabama, Georgia, LSU (new scheme, but not RPO). Yes they have great talent, but so do we. Unfortunately the scheme and those coaching it are not producing. When you cannot convert 3rd downs to seal a win, you have problems. And this has been a problem for 3 years. We need a different system next year along with a different OC.

 

[danvillenit]

That is my hope too. I also see it as a failed experiment. Compare our offense with OSU, Oklahoma, Alabama, Georgia, LSU (new scheme, but not RPO). Yes they have great talent, but so do we. Unfortunately the scheme and those coaching it are not producing. When you cannot convert 3rd downs to seal a win, you have problems. And this has been a problem for 3 years. We need a different system next year along with a different OC.

I’m not in love with our system but It requires a QB who is accurate on the deep ball. If Clifford played as well as the QB for the teams you list we would have put up 40+ yesterday

 

[tboyer]

In all my years, I can’t recall a team across the NFL or CFB that has done this good of job of doing “less with more”

1) It's still early.
2) Michigan has actually done a pretty good job of doing less with more for a long time now.