Its not all recruiting!

[Ian]

Time for the others to put on their big boy pants and man up.
They are getting whooped on the mat not in recruiting!
They are being out coached and out conditioned.
There is plenty of talent to go around.

Great article on where the AA's were ranked coming out of high school.

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/18008

2012-16 (current squads) HS Top Ranked Wrestlers
Top 25, Top 10, Top 5, #1
Oklahoma St 10, 4, 2, 0
Penn State 9, 9, 7, 1
Ohio State 9, 8, 4, 2
Iowa 9, 2, 2, 0
Illinois 7, 3, 1, 0
Minnesota 7, 0, 0, 0
Michigan 6, 4, 4, 0
Lehigh 6, 1, 0, 0
Virginia 6, 0, 0, 0
Northwestern 5, 2, 2, 1
Cornell 5, 2, 0, 0
Nebraska 5, 2, 0, 0
Az State 4, 3, 2, 1
Va Tech 4, 2, 0, 0

 

[matter7172]

Casey touched on this at the PSWC prematch gathering before the Maryland match. He said, basically (I'm paraphrasing a bit) - a lot of people think we have success only because we get studs to come here. It's true we get studs to come here, but if you want to win championships, there is a lot more to it. We have a plan and we work hard every day on that plan.

 

[johnstownsteel]

Not to burst bubbles here but don't those numbers suggest Penn State recruits more elite level wrestlers?

 

[greenmanRD]

Willie and Christian brought up a good example on FRL between Zain and Ashnault. They were equals throughout high school, maybe Zain had a slight edge, but look where they are now relative to where they were.

 

[Ian]

Matter, the gap is not as great as the others would lead you to believe.

By the "elite" count, the final results were appropriate.

But the margin of victory points to other factors more significant!

2012-16 (current squads) HS Top Ranked Wrestlers
Top 25, Top 10, Top 5, #1
Oklahoma St 10, 4, 2, 0
Penn State 9, 9, 7, 1
Ohio State 9, 8, 4, 2
Iowa 9, 2, 2, 0

 

[nitlion6]

I posted this during nationals and I will post it again.

The most prominent example of coaching impact between the 3Cs (Cael, Cody, Casey) and TnT (Brands bothers) occured during the semi-finals.
Cruz had a plan to beat Gilman and that plan was to avoid wrestling as much as possible and see if he could snatch a victory with a late score. Gilman, who is a much better overall wrestler than Cruz, allowed Cruz to dictate the pace and lost.
At 157 Berger had a very similar plan. Do as close to nothing as possible, risk no openings and steal one away from a much superior wrestler in Jason Nolf. Jason just continually forced the action and the pace, literally forcing Berger to engage.

Two different approaches of attacking a very similar stall, avoid, refuse engagement game plan. If Gilman were a Nittany Lion Gilman would today be a national champion.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

After Nationals, Tom Ryan is down in Aruba complaining about officials on twitter and no doubt listening to the execrable Bro-Country that he likes on his ear buds.

What's Cael up to? Oh, he's running a NLWC practice.

I don't begrudge someone vacation, but that comparison speaks volumes.

 

[Ian]

Its all about having fun!

 

[Tom McAndrew]

starting a thread on Wednesday based on an article that I linked in the Articles from Tuesday post ... hmm

 

[El-Jefe]

Willie and Christian brought up a good example on FRL between Zain and Ashnault. They were equals throughout high school, maybe Zain had a slight edge, but look where they are now relative to where they were.

I'll buy peers but not slight edge, let alone equals. They faced several times, and Zain always won. Close matches, but Zain never lost that type of match, always won by being the mentally strongest guy in the arena.

Point well taken about their college progress. Ash is climbing the mountain. Zain bulldozed it.

 

[El-Jefe]

After Nationals, Tom Ryan is down in Aruba complaining about officials on twitter and no doubt listening to the execrable Bro-Country that he likes on his ear buds.

What's Cael up to? Oh, he's running a NLWC practice.

I don't begrudge someone vacation, but that comparison speaks volumes.

The timing of that tanning trip is really odd too. Did he not want to be home to celebrate if they won? Did he not think they could win? Did he not want to console guys who fell short of their goals?

I get that there are limited windows for coaches to take vacation ... not during the season, not during major freestyle tourneys, not on July 1 ...

Though I won't be surprised if Cael takes the kids to Yosemite and Oregon Dunes around 4th of July.

 

[CholleyVandine]

I'll buy peers but not slight edge, let alone equals. They faced several times, and Zain always won. Close matches, but Zain never lost that type of match, always won by being the mentally strongest guy in the arena.

Point well taken about their college progress. Ash is climbing the mountain. Zain bulldozed it.

Ashnault beat Zain at least twice in high school at Super 32.

 

[dropster45]

I like looking at stats too, but as Matter mentioned, and I'll apologize for pointing out the obvious, but we ARE getting the best recruits. The numbers presented show that as well.

WHY?
We are getting the best recruits because we've consistently shown we can make them into National Champions, and AA's.
Other schools have not been able to do the same with their #1 recruits/recruiting classes.
In years past, these teams were beaten by a school who did not have #1 recruits at the time, but outdeveloped their wrestlers - that's Penn State.
Our propensity toward making NC's, and NC Teams now gives us a tremendous recruiting advantage.
We are now just seeing what the combination of top level recruits AND top level development yields.
That said, next years team may be the best in the entire history of NCAA wrestling.
Our propensity toward building young wrestlers into adults who appear to be respectful, grateful, humble, well-rounded, and kind, give us a tremendous recruiting advantage, as well.

It's the total package at work here, and attempting to isolate it down to one factor is likely denial, a period of rationalization (bargaining), Possibly anger, giving up (acceptance)...

The good news for us is that none of these aforementioned psychological regimes are conducive to fixing ones own situation.

 

[Lyons212]

Looking t those recruiting rankings, Penn State and Ohio State have the big advantage in top 10 recruits. They are also the two best programs right now in terms of their wrestlers scoring bonus points. Two things probably at play, their style of wrestling is attracting the elite recruits and the elite recruits wrestle a wide open style thus they are attracted to PSU and tOSU.

The other factor is that the two best states in the country for high school wrestling are Pennsylvania and Ohio. Finally the flagship University of those two states has been able to keep the talent at home. Three of PSU's national champions are from PA. Tomasello, the Jordans and Moore are from Ohio.

Lesson for all the other programs, if you want to consistently attract the best recruits, you better wrestle aggressively and offensive minded. Scoring lots of points is exciting and fun.

 

[21Guns]

Looking t those recruiting rankings, Penn State and Ohio State have the big advantage in top 10 recruits. They are also the two best programs right now in terms of their wrestlers scoring bonus points. Two things probably at play, their style of wrestling is attracting the elite recruits and the elite recruits wrestle a wide open style thus they are attracted to PSU and tOSU.

The other factor is that the two best states in the country for high school wrestling are Pennsylvania and Ohio. Finally the flagship University of those two states has been able to keep the talent at home. Three of PSU's national champions are from PA. Tomasello, the Jordans and Moore are from Ohio.

Lesson for all the other programs, if you want to consistently attract the best recruits, you better wrestle aggressively and offensive minded. Scoring lots of points is exciting and fun.

Tomasello and Jordan are great wrestlers but much of that has to do with their weight lifting as much as their wrestling. They are both enormous.

 

[dropster45]

Looking t those recruiting rankings, Penn State and Ohio State have the big advantage in top 10 recruits. They are also the two best programs right now in terms of their wrestlers scoring bonus points. Two things probably at play, their style of wrestling is attracting the elite recruits and the elite recruits wrestle a wide open style thus they are attracted to PSU and tOSU.

The other factor is that the two best states in the country for high school wrestling are Pennsylvania and Ohio. Finally the flagship University of those two states has been able to keep the talent at home. Three of PSU's national champions are from PA. Tomasello, the Jordans and Moore are from Ohio.

Lesson for all the other programs, if you want to consistently attract the best recruits, you better wrestle aggressively and offensive minded. Scoring lots of points is exciting and fun.

Agreed, and here's another way of looking at it that is probably more complimentary. That is, Dan Gable had no business winning all of those NC's, not being geographically located in the area that say Penn State is. But, he showed that he and his staff could develop talent. Subsequently, from there he could recruit just about anyone from anywhere. That's how he did it and it's a testament as to how great a coach he was, and in all areas - delegating, team building, admin, organization, leadership, training regimes, psychology, technique...

 

[Lyons212]

Agreed, and here's another way of looking at it that is probably more complimentary. That is, Dan Gable had no business winning all of those NC's, not being geographically located in the area that say Penn State is. But, he showed that he and his staff could develop talent. Subsequently, from there he could recruit just about anyone from anywhere. That's how he did it and it's a testament as to how great a coach he was, and in all areas - delegating, team building, admin, organization, leadership, training regimes, psychology, technique...

No doubt, only problem, that philosophy has not changed in the 20 years since Gable stopped coaching. Or neither Zalesky or Brands has had the sheer force of will Gable did or the charisma to keep in going. Iowa is still and excellent wrestling program, clearly top 4 in the country, they are a long way from number 1 and it does not sit well with them.

 

[T J]

Agreed, and here's another way of looking at it that is probably more complimentary. That is, Dan Gable had no business winning all of those NC's, not being geographically located in the area that say Penn State is. But, he showed that he and his staff could develop talent. Subsequently, from there he could recruit just about anyone from anywhere. That's how he did it and it's a testament as to how great a coach he was, and in all areas - delegating, team building, admin, organization, leadership, training regimes, psychology, technique...

However, it appears the Cael or "Penn State" way has eclipsed Gable's approach.

Gable was great at conditioning in his day. He out trained a lot of other less serious wrestlers. That intense approach transferred to his program with great success.

Gable also seemed to emphasize defense and limiting scoring by opponents. Iirc, when he won his Olympic Gold Medal, he didn't give up a point. An incredible achievement. The Gable way was extremely successful throughout his career as a wrestler and as a coach. The results were outstanding achievements we can all appreciate.

=====

However Cael loves bonus point wins. The more the better. As such he wants endurance conditioning, to still have a gas tank in OT if needed. Plus, he teaches to push the pace in all positions, yielding points if it results in increasing the gap toward the bonus point levels.

Both have been successful winning strategies, but Cael's Penn State bonus points focus appears to reduce close matches that might be lost on a last ditch takedown or a throw, and of course, bonus points greatly help the team win duals and tourneys.

Seems Cael is changing college wrestling for the better, from a fan perspective. Lots of points means more action for fans, plus more individual wins and team wins for Penn State.

Your mileage may vary...

 

[johnstownsteel]

Iowa fans constantly say PSU's success has more to do with recruiting and less to do with Cael's coaching abilities. They aren't smart enough to realize that Cael is a great coach...that's why the best want to be coached by him.

So yeah, Cael does get a lot of the elite wrestlers. They became elite because they seek out the best coaching and training possible. They seek out Cael...

 

[pawrestlersintn]

We are one of the few teams that is making HS recruiting rankings look good.

Of all top 10 recruits between 2011 and 2016, our % of All-Americans to Opportunities (Opportunity is defined as a non-RS year wrestled.) is 78%. Our % of Champions to Opportunities is 30%.

The rest of the field is at 38% AA to Opportunity, and 8% Champs to Opportunity. In other words, when another team gets a top ten recruit, they are 50% as likely to reach AA and 26% as likely to be a champ, as a Penn State top ten recruit is.

Couple of things going on here.

1. HS recruiting rankings suck. Bad. How accurate are college P4P rankings, despite all kinds of H2H matches? How good can HS rankings really be?
   
2. Cael and Co. are GREAT at identifying which talent to go after and developing it.

I'm still playing with data, but I'll make it available at some point.

 

[Gebmo]

Iowa fans constantly say PSU's success has more to do with recruiting and less to do with Cael's coaching abilities. They aren't smart enough to realize that Cael is a great coach...that's why the best want to be coached by him.

So yeah, Cael does get a lot of the elite wrestlers. They became elite because they seek out the best coaching and training possible. They seek out Cael...

And if you read the brotherhood article by Tim Owen, you understand that as great as Cael is, talking just about Cael is missing a big part of the equation. If Cael can't develop, then Cody, Casey, and Jake can't either.

I guess we'll just have to settle for mediocre coaches....

 

[Ian]

outstanding Pa Wrestlers.... it does appear the coaching issues are at the other programs.

 

[Real-Lion]

outstanding Pa Wrestlers.... it does appear the coaching issues are at the other programs.

Any ELITE wrestler would be a FOOL not to come and wrestle for PSU...Plus get a top of the line education with a HUGE alumni base around the country !!!!

 

[NittanyLion84]

However, it appears the Cael or "Penn State" way has eclipsed Gable's approach.

Gable was great at conditioning in his day. He out trained a lot of other less serious wrestlers. That intense approach transferred to his program with great success.

Gable also seemed to emphasize defense and limiting scoring by opponents. Iirc, when he won his Olympic Gold Medal, he didn't give up a point. An incredible achievement. The Gable way was extremely successful throughout his career as a wrestler and as a coach. The results were outstanding achievements we can all appreciate.

=====

However Cael loves bonus point wins. The more the better. As such he wants endurance conditioning, to still have a gas tank in OT if needed. Plus, he teaches to push the pace in all positions, yielding points if it results in increasing the gap toward the bonus point levels.

Both have been successful winning strategies, but Cael's Penn State bonus points focus appears to reduce close matches that might be lost on a last ditch takedown or a throw, and of course, bonus points greatly help the team win duals and tourneys.

Seems Cael is changing college wrestling for the better, from a fan perspective. Lots of points means more action for fans, plus more wins individual and team wins for Penn State.

Your mileage may vary...

Plus, with today's kids, I think Gable's approach, after a subpar performance in dual, meant the team went straight to a grueling workout, immediately after the dual, are long gone and would not work today.

 

[matter7172]

We are one of the few teams that is making HS recruiting rankings look good.

Of all top 10 recruits between 2011 and 2016, our % of All-Americans to Opportunities (Opportunity is defined as a non-RS year wrestled.) is 78%. Our % of Champions to Opportunities is 30%.

The rest of the field is at 38% AA to Opportunity, and 8% Champs to Opportunity. In other words, when another team gets a top ten recruit, they are 50% as likely to reach AA and 26% as likely to be a champ, as a Penn State top ten recruit is.

Couple of things going on here.

1. HS recruiting rankings suck. Bad. How accurate are college P4P rankings, despite all kinds of H2H matches? How good can HS rankings really be?
   
2. Cael and Co. are GREAT at identifying which talent to go after and developing it.

I'm still playing with data, but I'll make it available at some point.

That is both amazing and telling. If that doesn't put the "Cael can't coach" contingent on silence, nothing will.

 

[Nittany.Lion]

starting a thread on Wednesday based on an article that I linked in the Articles from Tuesday post ... hmm

it seems to bother you..... why? Is it your expectation that everyone of us read every single post?

 

[NittanyLion84]

That is both amazing and telling. If that doesn't put the "Cael can't coach" contingent on silence, nothing will.

Nothing will.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Plus, with today's kids, I think Gable's approach, after a subpar performance in dual, meant the team went straight to a grueling workout, immediately after the dual, are long gone and would not work today.

Or drop them off 10 miles out of town on the way back from a dual loss and make them run home ...

 

[dropster45]

However, it appears the Cael or "Penn State" way has eclipsed Gable's approach.

Gable was great at conditioning in his day. He out trained a lot of other less serious wrestlers. That intense approach transferred to his program with great success.

Gable also seemed to emphasize defense and limiting scoring by opponents. Iirc, when he won his Olympic Gold Medal, he didn't give up a point. An incredible achievement. The Gable way was extremely successful throughout his career as a wrestler and as a coach. The results were outstanding achievements we can all appreciate.

=====

However Cael loves bonus point wins. The more the better. As such he wants endurance conditioning, to still have a gas tank in OT if needed. Plus, he teaches to push the pace in all positions, yielding points if it results in increasing the gap toward the bonus point levels.

Both have been successful winning strategies, but Cael's Penn State bonus points focus appears to reduce close matches that might be lost on a last ditch takedown or a throw, and of course, bonus points greatly help the team win duals and tourneys.

Seems Cael is changing college wrestling for the better, from a fan perspective. Lots of points means more action for fans, plus more wins individual and team wins for Penn State.

Your mileage may vary...

My goal wasn't really to initiate a Cael vs. Gable debate. I think we can agree that they are 2 of the very best ever. I also don't believe all of the Gable methods are practiced today in the current Iowa program. The Brands Bros are different in many ways than he was, and certainly not better. Cael & Co. version of this is better than both, at least in today's world, but that's just my opinion.
To your point on Gables teams out training others. I'd say that is only partially true. In fact, in many cases the other teams lost BECAUSE they were trying to out train Iowa. The words "overtraining" and "tapering" weren't very well understood back then, but Iowa had this down early. Case in point: Penn State teams from the mid to late 80's/early 90's almost always beat Iowa in dual meets, but then, by not tapering, underperformed at NCAA's...just some info.

 

[T J]

My goal wasn't really to initiate a Cael vs. Gable debate. I think we can agree that they are 2 of the very best ever. I also don't believe all of the Gable methods are practiced today in the current Iowa program. The Brands Bros are different in many ways than he was, and certainly not better. Cael & Co. version of this is better than both, at least in today's world, but that's just my opinion.
To your point on Gables teams out training others. I'd say that is only partially true. In fact, in many cases the other teams lost BECAUSE they were trying to out train Iowa. The words "overtraining" and "tapering" weren't very well understood back then, but Iowa had this down early. Case in point: Penn State teams from the mid to late 80's/early 90's almost always beat Iowa in dual meets, but then, by not tapering, underperformed at NCAA's...just some info.

Thanks for your inputs dropster45 -
Good points.

Avoiding overtraining and tapering are key parts of getting optimal results.

 

[dropster45]

Or drop them off 10 miles out of town on the way back from a dual loss and make them run home ...

Or have them practice outside, in February, in the snow!, and in a position between the CHA exit and our team bus, so that we would have to walk around them to get to it!

 

[nitlion6]

It is OK if other programs believe it is only in the recruiting. The slower people are to adapt the longer it will be until the playing field levels out a bit.
Brands can upgrade his recruiting, but until the development changes the Hawks will continue to chase the Cowboys and Buckeyes falsely believing they are right behind the Nits.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Was thinking but then decided for get it you guys just would not understand.
Congrats on your champ ship and most likely about 5 more in a row. Believe me when you get your 10 champs the only way the place will be a sell out is if it is held out East some place.
Now I do have one question..
You have one choice to make only and can go first other person takes what you don't choose.
1). Can have all ten weights with a number one rank at their weight .
2). Can have your pick of best coach but no top 10 recruit.
Really it is quite easy to choose don't you think.?

 

[nitlion6]

Was thinking but then decided for get it you guys just would not understand.
Congrats on your champ ship and most likely about 5 more in a row. Believe me when you get your 10 champs the only way the place will be a sell out is if it is held out East some place.
Now I do have one question..
You have one choice to make only and can go first other person takes what you don't choose.
1). Can have all ten weights with a number one rank at their weight .
2). Can have your pick of best coach but no top 10 recruit.
Really it is quite easy to choose don't you think.?

Let me know when that choice is mandated.

Let me ask you this.
IMar, 2 time national champion. He has 2 losses, both to Penn State freshmen and both times IMar was gassed and pinned. Obviously the Penn State freshmen have serious talent, but you don't believe some serious coaching went into those victories?

 

[matter7172]

Was thinking but then decided for get it you guys just would not understand.
Congrats on your champ ship and most likely about 5 more in a row. Believe me when you get your 10 champs the only way the place will be a sell out is if it is held out East some place.
Now I do have one question..
You have one choice to make only and can go first other person takes what you don't choose.
1). Can have all ten weights with a number one rank at their weight .
2). Can have your pick of best coach but no top 10 recruit.
Really it is quite easy to choose don't you think.?

Just loaded with Hawkeye "wisdom". Newsflash! Nationals sells out every year and will continue to do so for many, many years. Why should anyone "believe (you)"?

It's not really a question, it's a choice. And you are correct, it's easy. I pick #2 because I'm not stupid and shortsighted.

 

[PSUer1989]

For all the talk that is recruits and not coaching, a lot of talk on HR about whether they could get DT or Casey to come coach at Iowa.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Let me know when that choice is mandated.

Let me ask you this.
IMar, 2 time national champion. He has 2 losses, both to Penn State freshmen and both times IMar was gassed and pinned. Obviously the Penn State freshmen have serious talent, but you don't believe some serious coaching went into those victories?

Never said Cael could not coach. This is one weight ok. So you like Matter would take coach over 10 number one wrestlers and you are going to have him coach up the over 10 to win the dual or nationals good luck to you..Are you old enough to know why the Yankees in there day always won.

 

[minnhawkeye]

For all the talk that is recruits and not coaching, a lot of talk on HR about whether they could get DT or Casey to come coach at Iowa.

Did you read the reason why?
Cause they would be better at getting top kids and yes they can coach also pretty simple.
Ok this is really not worth the time, if you don't believe that the talent you recruit makes no big difference good for you..When Cal got Dogulas fired and took over he had talent and he recruited talent but not like what he has out East so yes it is very simple to see why he is winning. He knew he would not at ISU so made his move smart move. Just please don't keep trying to convince everyone that he is so great. End of this for me and maybe I'm a poor loser lol get your 10 champs next year cause can't make Cleveland and don't want to miss many more ok ..

 

[nitlion6]

The answer for the Yankees is generally broken down into pre and post free agency. Before the 1970's the rest of baseball was said to be the Yankees farm system and after Curt Flood it was because the Yankees would always get the top tier free agents. Essentially the Yankees always had more better players and the reason that has been true is because the Yankees have always had the most money.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Was thinking but then decided for get it you guys just would not understand.
Congrats on your champ ship and most likely about 5 more in a row. Believe me when you get your 10 champs the only way the place will be a sell out is if it is held out East some place.
Now I do have one question..
You have one choice to make only and can go first other person takes what you don't choose.
1). Can have all ten weights with a number one rank at their weight .
2). Can have your pick of best coach but no top 10 recruit.
Really it is quite easy to choose don't you think.?

Easy as we just did this eight years ago. I pick Cael. When he signed on as coach our recruiting class that year was not in the top 20 in the country in many lists. There was one top 10 wrestler in it, though, Ed Ruth. DT followed Cael to PSU thereafter which bumped their recruiting class up after Cael was already in place.